But what is the way of Christ? What makes his way different from all others who came before him?
How would you differentiate Christ’s way from the Pharisees who had all the Law at their grasp but still made converts into twice the citizens of hell as they were?
That was not a personal atrack @Pater15 . i meant the conscience cannot be trusted in general.
What does the love commandment mean? How can you hold it up to this action or that, or even inaction and then decide- “this is a sin.” and, “that is not a sin.”
How does the Love Command change how we look at the Law? Remember, the Pharisee had all the Law at their grasp. But Christ said they sought out converts and made them twice the citizen of hell as themselves. The Pharisee were sticklers of the Law. They followed it to the Letter
But there methodology was riddled with fallacy. Do Christians handle the Law any differently today from how the Pharisee handled it then, or do they use it in the exact same way?
You might be on the wrong thread. This is not overtly about homosexuality. We are talking about the nature of sin itself, definition, etc. And my attention is on someone else at the moment. Feel free to ask that question on the other thread and I will get to it another time. Thank you.
Excellent.
Now go a bit more into detail.
Or use a different example for each one.
Basically, I want to see how your definition is more than just an angry sentiment toward sinners and nonChristians because it sounds more like an angry rant than a solid thiing that can be measured. With all due respect.
@Tillman I have already laid out the Scriptures, so your issue is not with me but with God Himself and what He has spoken as it is written.
You ask what makes sin, sin.
Jesus and Paul show it clearly. Sin is not just an angry label thrown at others. It can be measured in thought, word, and deed, and in each case it refuses God’s reign, despises His glory, and tramples the cross.
1. Sin in Thought
Jesus said, “Everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). A sinful thought refuses God’s reign because it dethrones His authority over the mind and lets desire rule (Romans 8:7). It despises His glory because the human mind, made to reflect God’s holiness, turns instead toward corruption (Romans 1:21). And it tramples the cross because Christ humbled Himself to the cross to cleanse the heart (Philippians 2:8), but lust mocks that cleansing and clings to defilement.
2. Sin in Word
Jesus warned, “On the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak” (Matthew 12:36). Words of blasphemy, denial, or the blessing of sin refuse God’s reign because they twist the tongue, which was made to confess Him as Lord (Romans 10:9). They despise His glory because the name of the Lord, which should be hallowed (Matthew 6:9), is instead dragged down by profane lips (Malachi 1:6). And they trample the cross because the mouth was given to proclaim the death and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:26), yet it is turned to excuse or celebrate the very sins He died to conquer.
3. Sin in Deed
Jesus said, “From within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery… all these evil things come from within, and they defile a person” (Mark 7:21–23). Paul is explicit: “Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral… nor men who practice homosexuality… will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9–10). Such deeds refuse God’s reign because they openly reject His commandments. They despise His glory because man, made in His image, exchanges His likeness for corruption (Romans 1:23–27). And they trample the cross because, as Hebrews 10:29 warns, “they trample underfoot the Son of God and profane the blood of the covenant.” To go on in defiance after the cross is to treat the sacrifice of Christ as worthless.
So what makes sin, sin? It is not just cultural taboo or angry rhetoric. Sin is measurable. It refuses God’s reign, it despises His glory, and it tramples the cross of Christ.
That is why no one can embrace a lifestyle of sin, including homosexuality, and still rightly claim the name Christian. The cross does not affirm sin, it [crucifies it.]<<<<<!!!
J.
Excellent. Well thought out. Well versed. You have done well. But I still hold to what I believe. Thank you for your time.
There was once a great episode of the old Twilight Zone tv show where a man refused to go through the Pearly Gate because the Angel wouldn’t let him take his beloved dog inside.
That dog is my best friend, he said.
No dogs allowed, the Angel said. And he insisted, if you leave here now you wont be able to get in later. Hell is just around the corner. Better get inside.
But the man replied, no place would be heaven without my dog. I will just have to say Good Bye.
The man walked a path through some woods and found a series of log cabins like he had always known. He found loved ones who had passed before him and an angel dressed in clothes like his own.
Welcome to heaven, the angel joufully cried.
You mean heaven is not that place over there with the nonstop singing, bright flaahing lights, and tall golden bars that make up the mile long fences that wrap around it tight?
Oh no, the Angel shook his head, that place is hell. A never ending prison for the damned. Thank God that old devil didn’t trick you inside.
There is a virtue to being loyal, to being kind, and being true. A virture in loving your brother and all others, that soothes any wound. A virtue that religion tries very hard to bind. It proclaims freedom while it shrinks the heart and imprisons the mind. Love never did anything to me like those of a religious kind.
So, no, I will keep believing what I be believing. And you can go tell that old devil I am doing just fine.
Saw this late edit @Tillman
That is nothing but folklore, not the written Word of God. Have you considered the imperatives of Christ, that we must deny ourselves and put to death the deeds of the flesh? The message you preach stands in direct opposition to the gospel of Christ Jesus.
Rom_5:12 - Rom_8:39. SIN:THE OLD NATURE ITSELF.
Rom_5:12-21. Condemnation to death of the first man; through the sin ( to paraptoma ) of one man:but, a justifying unto life through the righteous act ( to dikaioma ) of one man, the Second Man.
Rom_6:1 - Rom_7:6. We are not in sin, because we died with Christ.
Rom_7:7-25. Sin is in us, though we have risen with Christ.
Rom_8:1-39. No condemnation for the new man, to those who are alive unto God in Christ Jesus, and in whom is pneuma Christou , the new nature; because of the condemnation of sin in the flesh (in Christ, the Second Man).
Rom_4:12-21. CONDEMNATION OF THE FIRST MAN.
Rom_5:12. By one man’‘s sin death.
Rom_5:13. Sin not imputed where no law.
Rom_5:14 -. The reign of death.
Rom_5:14. The type, Adam.
Rom_5:15. Not as by one sin, so the gracious gift.
Rom_5:16-17. Not as by one man, so the gracious gift.
Rom_5:18-19. By One Man’'s righteous act many made righteous.
Rom_5:20. Sin imputed when law came.
Rom_5:21 -. The reign of sin and death.
Rom_5:21. The Antitype, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom_6:1 - Rom_7:6. WE ARE NOT IN SIN BECAUSE WE DIED WITH CHRIST.
Rom_6:1-11. Identification with Christ in death and life.
Rom_6:12-14. Sin no longer has dominion, because we are dead to the law.
Rom_6:15-19. The old, and the new, master and servant.
Rom_6:20-23. Sin no longer has dominion, because we are alive in Christ.
Rom_7:1-6. Identification with Christ in life and death.
Rom_6:1-11. IDENTIFICATION WITH CHRIST IN DEATH AND LIFE.
Rom_6:1-3. Death to SIN cannot entail life in SINS.
Rom_6:4-7. By identification with Christ in His death and life , there cannot be continuance in SIN.
Rom_6:8-10. By identification with Christ in His death and life , there must be life with God.
Rom_6:11. Death to SIN entails life with God.
Rom_6:12-14. SIN (THE OLD MAN) NO LONGER HAS DOMINION.
Rom_6:12. Sin not to reign in the mortal body. (Dehortation.)
Rom_6:13 -. The members, therefore, not to be surrendered as instruments of unrighteousness. (Negative.)
Rom_6:15-19. THE OLD AND THE NEW MASTER.
Rom_6:15-16. Acts of obedience indicate the master served.
Rom_6:17. Change in acts of obedience.
Rom_6:18. Change in commands of new master.
Rom_6:19. The Master served indicates the nature of obedience rendered.
Rom_6:20-23. SIN NO LONGER HAS DOMINION.
Rom_6:20 -. Servants of sin.
Rom_7:1-6. IDENTIFICATION WITH CHRIST IN LIFE AND DEATH.
Rom_7:1. Lordship of the law only during life.
Rom_7:2. Death releases from its claim.
Rom_7:3. Result remarriage lawful.
Rom_7:4 -. We are dead to the law, in Christ.
Rom_7:7-25. SIN IS IN US THOUGH WE HAVE RISEN WITH CHRIST.
Rom_7:7-12. The Law. Its conflict with the old nature.
Rom_7:13-16. Manifestation of the Law in conscience. (The consent.)
Rom_7:17-20. Manifestation of the Law in the experience and the life. (The doing.)
Rom_7:21-25. The Law. Its conflict with the new nature.
Rom_7:7-12. THE LAW. ITS CONFILCT WITH THE OLD NATURE.
Rom_7:7. The Law not sin. (Negative.)
Rom_7:8. Sin using the commandment as a point of attack.
Rom_7:9 -. Alive without sin.
Rom_7:13-16. MANIFESTATION OF LAW IN THE CONSCIENCE.
Rom_7:13. Manifestation of the evil of sin to the conscience.
Rom_7:14 -. The law spiritual.
Rom_7:17-20. MANIFESTATION OF THE LAW IN THE EXPERIENCE AND THE LIFE.
Rom_7:17. No more I myself that do evil, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom_7:18 -. No good in me as to my flesh.
Rom_7:21-25. THE LAW. ITS CONFILCT WITH THE NEW NATURE.
Rom_7:21. Two opposing principles in the one man.
Rom_7:22. Delight in God’‘s law.
Rom_7:23. Conflict.
Rom_7:24 -. Distress at sin’'s law.
J.
Good night, sweet heart. May the angels give you rest. And in the Name of Christ Jesus be as blessed as the peace that resides in your heart.
What IS it that “you believe”, that “you hold to”?
What IS your personal POV regarding “What makes a given sin a sin?”
I’m not looking for contention, I’m just currions and am interested in your understanding of the subject.
KP
I have a feeling you’re not going to get a direct answer. @KPuff
Brother @anon75384934 I get what you are saying.
If the law hadn’t been given, if God didn’t tell us that “theft” is bad, then is it our fault?
To give a basic outline lets talk about “THE LAW”
One key to understanding Romans is to distinguish properly between the several ways Paul uses the word “law” in this epistle.
So, sin is not arbitrary. God doesn’t simply call something wrong for no reason. The Law shows us sin not because God made it up, but because sin is destructive to human nature and communion with Him. That’s why Paul talks about different ‘laws’—Mosaic, Natural, Faith, Spirit—each showing in its own way that sin is real, not just a rule, and that only in Christ is it healed.
Edit:
An important segment to understand Paul’s letter to the Romans.
Good AM Tillman,
The Way of Christ (that completes the whole law according to Romans 13:10 ) is to love God (who is Love according to 1 John 4:8 & 16), and to love your neighbor as you do yourself (Luke 10:27). I think this is the Way that Christ talks about that few find (Matthew 7:14), while they look for different paths in life (that miss the mark, and therefore is sin according to its original definition).
Romans 13:10 ** **Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.
Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The Gospel is not hard unless we make it hard. There was a reason everyday people, sinners, were filled with joy when they heard it.
The Pharisee compounded expectations with law after law. They had reasons for not helping others, for not touching the dead, for forsaking justiice for the widow, the orphan, the poor, and the foreignor.
Love is the whole Law. Christ died as an example of both sacrificial love and forgiveness. A forgiveness that does not stop forgiving. How many times shall you forgive? 70x7. A number meant to comvey abundance, completeness, and to counter another man’s boasts, Lamech, of getting revenge 77 times in Mathew 18:22.
Vengence is not an appropriate attitude for Christians. Holding people in grace is. Not in contenpt, condemnation, or judgement.
The ones who struggle most with Christ are the religious who nonstop compare themselves with sinners. Oh, how good those religious folks look next to those sinners who remain seperate from themselves and God. But for all their knowledge of the Law, they do not know God.
The prodigal son eventually finds his way back home, but boy how his brother stews in fury because of His father’s Love. And the workers in the field take such offense that the newer workers gain the same wage as them for far less of the work.
God is unjust in his mercies, the religious cry. He saves our enemies, and all of those people we dispise. He blesses those who have not walked the line while we have been faithful all this time and have nothing to show for it but this lamenting rhyme.
Love is its own reward. Love bonds people together, it nourishes, heals, saves, and restores. It says, woman this is your son. Son, this is your mother. It unites together that which was seperate and not alike and it makes them one.
Remember that the devil is a fallen son who fell not from chasing pleasure and vice but for his own pride. He said I can judge better than God. Exemplified in the story of King David and his sons.
Satan moves to bring judgement before God is ready to enact it. And where as God always moves to restore to Hinself all those who are banished from Him, Lucifer judges to eternally destroy them.
Some use the guise of the Law and Religion to do the devil’s work. Some follow Christ.
The weeds and the grains grow together, some to eternal doom and others to eternal life. But you are what you give and you receive what you are. The merciful shall be shown mercy, having been drawn to Christ. While the hell obsessed will be blessed with a tour filled with the gnashing of teeth and the endless of strife.
They can’t avoid sin if they’re practicing it, but they can if they practice abstinence for God through Jesus, @Johann.
You cannot avoid sin. Period. As long as you stare at it, it has you. As long as you stare at hell, it has you too. When all you can see is the sin in another person’s life, then you yourself are in the grip of sin and it will take you no matter how Godly you think you are.
Unless you learn to practice compassion, grace and sacrificial love. And allow people to exist, flaws and all.
Grandfather, let it go. She could not love you. She did not have it in her heart because she was a broken person. She was not loved herself and did not know what love was.
But you can know Love now and be reborn. To Know Joy. To Know Peace. Put down the sword. Put down the pain, the trauma. And Let the battle go. We wage a war against ourselves that we will never win. It is time to rest in the Lord. To know a Love that transcends a human life and catches you when you fall.
@Tillman, I hear you. You have made your point very clear.
What I still haven’t heard is what it that “you believe” sin is. What is the definition of sin that “you hold to”? What IS your personal POV regarding “What makes a given sin a sin?”
I’m not looking for contention, I’m just currions and am interested in your understanding of the subject. YOu asked the question. What is your answer?
KP
So you are saying a sin is anything against God..
When Eve was tempted was it a sin because she was tempted or because she acted upon it.
A sin as a noun would mean anything against God’s nature or character or his righteousness?
But to make her a sinner she would have to intend to go againstGod right?
Since God is Holy, that means he is perfect. God’s intention for us is to also be like Him, perfect. Whenever we miss the perfection of God it is called sin, (missing the mark of perfection). So Romans 6 teaches us that God paid the price of our sinfulness (death) so we could be clothed with His righteousness (sinlessness). Until the final revaling of the Sons of God (us) we are instructed to not yield to ungodly temptations, to the very best of our ability, not to gain favor with God, or to earn our salvstion, but to testify (show the world) the rightsousness of God in our lives.
Eve was told the righteousness of God in the command to not eat of the forbidden tree. She yielded to temptation, knowlingly, even though she was decieved, and she sinned. Also, Adam yielded to the temptation and also sinned (acted contrary to God).
Is this what you were looking for?
KP
Well, @Tillman, I hear you. You have made your point very clear.
What I still haven’t heard is what it that “you believe” sin is. What is the definition of sin that “you hold to”? What IS your personal POV regarding “What makes a given sin a sin?”
I’m not looking for contention, I’m just currions and am interested in your understanding of the subject. YOu asked the question. What is your answer?
KP
The law of love means that you believe in what God has communicated to you first. (Here is the key). You deeply believe that God knows what’s best for you. And you trust that belief. And you array your actions in alliance with that belief.
Psychological egoism holds that humans ALAWAYS do what they believe is best for themselves at that moment. Even when their actions are altruistic. It’s the way that God made us, on purpose. He knows that when we believe Him, we will also believe that anything we do according to His will is the best thing we can do for ourselves.
He gave us a conscience, which isnt necessarily entirely rational, because it is tied to our beliefs, and we don’t always believe the truth. Our conscience doesn’t usually kick in and bite us until AFTER the sin, so it’s more of a “don’t do that’s again” rather than a “don’t do it at all” mechanism.
But we can work out a rational belief based on what we know is true, IF WE WILL MAKE THE COMMITMENT. You know when you’re doing something that will end up depleting another person, or somehow isn’t the best thing for that person. You know by the Spirit when you’re doing one of the deadly sins.
You must face (I think) the fact that all of your arguments and rationalizations don’t come from the Bible, or the Spirit, or your conscience, but rather from desires that war against the Spirit. You’re bound to be unhappy, even though you are loved by Him. He has so much planned for you. It would be a shame for you to not believe Him.