I use to be in the reformed camp. Macarthur’s church. It was there i was more grounded in the day to day. So much so, I thought the end times would be generations down the road. And was shocked in 2016 to consider it might be closer.
Since then I have not really found 1 home church to land on. I was going to one church for a while that was 6th Seal rapture view but allowed some pastors to teach on pretrib. That church itself did not preach on end time prophesy. But I would have discussions with an elder there who thought quite a bit about it. Some parts of that church felt pretrib was absolute false teaching. Some tried to convert me…lol. I have always been pretrib.
I’ve visited my family’s church in Riverside CA. I don’t recall them ever getting into end time prophesy as it relates to today. Its a non-issue. But I did get into a great conversation with the pastor about Mstt 25 and end times. But just theologically. Not about current events.
I will share something in very brief fashion to explain an interesting encounter. My view is pretrib but always open to be mistaken. But in that, I believe seal 1 and 2 may be more of an entrance into the tribulation and not a part of it. And would see the church be here for both. If that view is accurate, it would be a more near term (not far term) sense of age of grace closure. Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum sometimes teaches at that church. I asked him a question relating to my view which consists of the 1st seal being more a good thing rather than the AC (the church held the 1st seal as positive for 1800 years). Arnold could not see that at all. Because it was a judgement. I differ, but i thought to note that little exchange. I don’t get the sense Arnold considers what is going on in the news as end times. Maybe prophetic and for the down the road.
I have also attended Jack Hibbs church on a number of occasions over the past few years. And that church talks about it all the time…lol. There is no one who shares my grass roots eschatology. So there is no school for that. But Amir Safarli’s observation of the middle east and implications (in places) has come closest to my views. That America will like play a huge role in empowering Israel.
For the most part, I don’t think most church’s are talking about end time prophesy. It would seem that most of the world would not see it that way. I would since 2016. But I am convinced that I am likely chomping at the bit all over the place. lol. It may be further out than I imagine. If my notions of the seals have accuracy it would not seem to start beyond 2033 for reasons we can get into later if interested.
So i did notice recently the differing views on Jeremiah 49:38. Many scholars see this as having been fulfilled in the Cyrus era. But there are trusted commentaries I read that see more of a future fulfillment. So on what happens to Iran in end times, I’m not sure what to think. I don’t really trust the Bill Salus viewpoint because i don’t see Psalm 83 as prophecy. Perhaps some of his other views might have merit. Not sure.
Thanks for the reply Peter. I have been in forums over the years that are like the wild west. I am not as used to more civil discussion. So i have gotten used to posted disclaimers semi-regularly because I tend to have the habit of setting off firestorms…lol. Not intentionally. Thanks for the encouraging reply.
I wonder if in this portion of scripture it is referring to Israel or gentiles (maybe both). If Israel, it would mean to me they did not really see what God has provided as good (like manna and the judgement in the desert over lack of gratitude). If gentile, then yeah I see your point. You point out scriptural intent more accurately, but my emphasis on “good” was mainly in contrast to some who may have thought Rom1 was teaching that what is clearly seen is God’s judgement in creation. Which to me is severely out there. So i just wanted to emphasize “His goodness” in creation by contrast.
You caught me at an interesting point in my walk brother. All my Christian life I have believed in Penal Substitution Atonement Theory (PSA). Which is universal by intent but applicational only through faith (as I understand it). So, no I don’t believe all are saved. But since PSA is a reformed doctrine, I have been researching the value of other atonement theories.
Even though I am no longer reformed, I am still OSAS (once saved always saved). Mainly because if we become a new creation, I don’t think that can be undone. I used to be a Lordship Salvationist. Now i am just a 1 pointer: We should see some evidence of a supernatural interest level have a heart beat. I don’t believe Lordship Salvation is accurate. 1 Cor 11, if someone dishonors God in a sinful life after salvation it may imply they don’t know Him. But it could be a 1 Cor 11 issue where God chastises even unto death. The reason for salvation is to redeem us from sin. Not that we should live it. A sinning saint would have no rewards and shamed at the bema seat is my view.
No I don’t share the Preterst view. I have been a futurist and pretribber my whole Christian life. But I believe that there is a coming tribulation for 7 years because Israel is not only back, but massive world news generator. Implying a 70th week to come exists for her. Had Israel not returned, I might be a preterist. Some think Israel is not Israel but a Rothchild reconstruction. The Rothchild at that time of formation left central banking and wanted to be Dr. Dolittle. He abandoned the family business and traveled the world collecting animals. That point is not something I have ever heard from that side. But one of the reasons i would not be tempted by the preterist view. Although I appreciate our Christian family will have many different eschatologist. And in honor and respect of that (meaning that in sarcasm toward myself), I decided to further make it even more interesting and provide a context for seal 1 and 2 to jump through a 7 year window/hoop–shortening the tribulation horizon start line/time down to a 7 year window to likely occur. But in that, i am a cessationist. So, that is just my wager. Blessings.
I was just curious where certain factions of Christian culture tend to get this end times obsession from and was wondering if it is often talked about and preached in our churches or somewhere else.
For me it was just realizing the things going on in our world today. Well the interest anyway. My personal view, including when i do it, is that the obsession I believe is a result of emotions catching up to some sense of perhaps our notice of needing to being more mature in general areas lacking in us. Something in us that triggers a need to be an “inspired one” tends, in my understand, to result as a lack of proportionate maturity. I’ve seen myself be about that too in places, ways, and at times.
I do think there is another side to the obsession though. When the blind man received sight from Christ, he did not care who he engaged. He was going to tell it like it is. Also i think the famous passage of Matt 12:11 could have some believers seeming to be over-the-top. But its just that when there is the real Christ here, some innocently and honestly could not contain themselves. Coming from this place, if believers are excited because there are things going on today that are end times signs literally, it would be understandable how something like that that we live and share in would be on emotional radar levels we might not have categories for. At least, tame ones, perhaps.
But for those perhaps caught in this perspective, I would not see it as an issue of immaturity. I would see it as being blown away. So on the immaturity side I see leaders in the church genuinely seeing something, but then it just seems like they tend to bring too much of their insistent perspectives upon it. Like they are granted an entitled view of end times or something to show the rest of us. This i don’t think is healthy in the church.
For me, i am glad to see there are interests. And maybe even obsessions (if what we are witnessing is as it may appear to be). But I would greatly concur with the hope that the church attempts to hijack meaning, be a way to be as = as fanatical about loving others and fanatically considering their perspectives too. But generally from what i have seen, it tends to come with a whole heck of a lot of bias. Used as ways to excuse us from their company. I have seen it used too to define what views are holy or demonic based on eschatology viewpoints. For those at that level, we have turned a hopeful thing into a way to war with one another. I would hope to see something else. More relaxed, hopeful care toward one another because we are that much closer to seeing it all go down…lol. Its odd that if we really are in end “end times,” our go to (for some) would be being king of the hill of eschatological views. Whereas though, when Christ is most near we tend to be violent toward one another. It would seem if most deeply genuinely understood, it would way mellow us out unto love…leaving our hearts speechless…unable to do much else. I don’t really see that phenomenon though in those camps so much.
But the good thing is there are forums like this (and another i am at) where we can share our differing views, and a mature general sense of Christian love and spiritual care be somewhat a lantern to all of our feet. And that is great to see and be a part of. Amen.
This whole spiel makes me seriously uneasy. It’s almost as though enemies of the Gospel have found a tool for “playing” us for the simpletons we are if we keep falling for that stuff. Like the “prophecy teachers” who find new suckers to buy their books every year, they are in danger of taking God’s Name in vain.
Last I heard, the fastest-growing church in the world was in Iran. A year ago, that country was filled with people who hated the mullahs and loved America. If we put boots on the ground, the blowback could set the cause of Christ back for generations.
The Color of Paradise (Rang-E Khoda) is a movie every informed person needs to see.
I’m going to say this as nicely as I can. I am worried that you are falling into this category.
“Claiming to be wise, they became fools,” Romans 1:22
I think you are leaning more toward your belief than the Word of God. Having this type of belief helps your flesh. Sadly, it could lead to this.
“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,” 1 Timothy 4:1-2
If we were to believe that Revelations has already happened and we need not worry about the End, then we can be at peace and eat, drink, and be merry, for we are already in Paradise. This is simply not true. There are many things that the Word CLEARLY spells out that you cannot possibly prove have happened. Too many things that are associated with the anti-Christ, for that matter.
Sorry, my brother, but calling people who have a different belief from you “a tool,” “simpletons,” and “suckers" does not prove your point. The Bible proves mine.