What's the Place of Iran in Biblical Prophecy? What's Your View on Talk of Armageddon?

Current Events
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Let me preface this by saying that I don’t think reading Scripture with the intent of looking for signs of the end times is a very healthy or helpful spiritual practice. It reminds me of when Jesus told the Pharisees that, “A wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign” (Matt. 12:39). I believe Jesus gave us all we need to know and didn’t want us chasing rabbit trails and getting hyped up about signs of the end times. He was much more concerned that we follow and abide in him in our daily lives and that we love those in our own families and communities.

All that said, recent current events have made me reflect on how talk of the end times seems to have gone beyond church or Christian circles with even reports of military leaders claiming the conflict in Iran is a harbinger of Armageddon. Perhaps like some of you, I’ve been wondering whether they are using this talk of the end times simply as a means to an end—to get people on board with the campaign. Or, perhaps more concerning honestly, have they meshed politics and religion/Scripture to the extent that they truly believe there is biblical justification for military conflict/war in Iran?

I am not very well-versed in wartime politics or the military, but, as someone who spent several formative years in a hyper-evangelical, end times-obsessed community, the recent unfolding of events is both fascinating and disturbing. We used to regularly listen to a show called “Prophecy Today” (maybe some of you are familiar) that exulted in every conflict, particularly in the Middle East, and somehow framed it all as part of end times prophecy with a hyper-literal interpretation of Revelation and other Scriptures.

So…thoughts? Are you concerned with how the military operation in Iran has been framed within biblical prophecy? Are you on board with that? Is this all a big distraction that takes away from the true and good work to be done to bring more of God’s Kingdom to our world through simple interactions with family, friends, coworkers, and church community?

Here are some related articles as more food for thought:

Is the Battle of Armageddon around the Corner?

Christian Leaders Say Iran Upheaval May Signal Prophetic Moment

7 Signs We Are in the End Times

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I’m getting old…

First, it was the Gulf War, then Y2K, then 9/11, then Obama, then… whatever, pick your war or disaster. The real question is: what bothers you inside? Whether it’s fear of the end or fear of tribulation, when your total trust is in God and you’re ready for the Sonrise, have no fear.

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To many, these events aren’t just geopolitical shifts; they are seen as a “tightening” of the prophetic timeline. Here is a breakdown of how current events are being mapped to specific biblical passages:

The Prophecy of Elam, Jeremiah 49:34–39. This is perhaps the most discussed passage right now. Ancient Elam corresponds to the southwestern region of modern-day Iran, which houses much of its military and nuclear infrastructure.

The “Breaking the Bow” prophecy speaks of God breaking the “bow of Elam, the mainstay of their might.” Many interpret the recent destruction of Iranian missile and nuclear facilities as the modern-day fulfillment of this “bow” being broken.

“Destroying the King and Officials”: Verse 38 mentions God destroying the “king and princes” from that land. With the recent reports concerning the death of the Supreme Leader and other top officials, many point to this as a literal fulfillment happening in real-time.

The Spiritual “Throne”: Did you know that Iran currently has one of the fastest-growing underground Christian movements in the world? Some theologians believe God “setting His throne in Elam” refers to this massive spiritual awakening rather than a political shift

Then you have the War of Gog and Magog, Ezekiel 38–39, where Ezekiel describes a future coalition of nations, led by a figure called Gog, which is often associated with Russia, that includes Persia (Iran), Turkey, and others, which will eventually march against Israel.

Can this lead to Israel living in peace without walls, before the invasion? It is possible. Or this could be another moment in time where God steps in to protect Israel. I guess we will have to wait and see if there are famines and earthquakes in various places. We already have 2 Timothy 3:1-5

“But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.”

We already have Romans 1:18-32, 2 Timothy 4:3-4. I guess we should keep watch. At the same time, though, occupy until He comes.

Peter

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Very helpful explanations. Thank you!

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I wanted to respond separately to each of these because this subject fascinates me. Not nearly as much as it did in 2016-17 though. I came out of a reformed perspective and in that community the focus was here and now, “how are we living.” To me, the notion of things seen in Revelation seemed so far away, I gave 0% thought to end times for 25 years.

Interestingly enough I became a believer just four years before the Hal Lindsey led fanfare notions that the rapture had to happen by 1988 because that is 1 generation away from the newfound inhabitance of the Nation of Israel. But I never knew any of that. It was not until I saw the Gotthard Tunnel Celebration that had me aware that this world is interested in some physical sense of the devil arriving. Trippy. That was 4 years after the Olympics ceremony of the phoenix rising gave the world chills. I had no idea about it till much later (as with Superbowl halftime ceremonies and other creepy scenes as well). So I could sense a world interest to roll out a red carpet to Satan, increase. And that was eerie.

in those days i thought i might be able to understand tribulation timing if Nibiru was real. Because that to me would explain the trumpet judgements. So I was indoctrinated and baptized into the watcher movement officially in 2017. And just recently like in the past two years have stepped back from it quite a bit. I believe end times is near. I believe we are that generation. But we might be very old and things look so different then. I don’t exactly think that but i tell myself i do.

. . . . .

I liked what you shared daughter of Eve. The way i relate focus on end times in a healthy way, hopeful, is for me becoming more an adventure with some ways in which God might make Himself uniquely known in end times more than having clothes matching best practice like eschatological events horizon proper, if you will. In other words, the craze today is getting that just right zone where everything suddenly makes sense. I’m not exactly sure we can have that. Which is why some things you shared about were very healthy for me to hear. What God has provided should not result in desperately seeking evidence all over the place. For many it is honest interest. For me it is. But the temptation there is to almost find validation in ourselves because we, “see.”

So instead of that I try and look for Him and His thoughts providential. One brief example: From what I can tell, most watcher perspectives seems to give the Abraham Accords a bad rap. They think it is the covenant the AC strengthens. And see all events related through that lens. I’m not saying it may not be related. I just think in general we are borrowing Revelation concepts for an age of grace that won’t be experiencing it. The Abe Accords could be a somewhat emblematic attesting to God massively converting Muslims (a way, wink wink, to still yet inspire jealousy toward the Jews). And so we have kind of lopsided our own value filter to a degree, i believe, in why whatever we might see matters the same for today (the age of grace) as it will in the tribulation age. I would see those as two totally separate ages. And the things that happen now eventually dovetail into the tribulation for sure, there will be crossover. But i don’t believe what might be for today is same meaning for the tribulation.

Example: Lets say Elon Musk will be the master brain chipper in the tribulation age. On this side of the equation that same technology “in the age of grace” can be used to help people who are blind see, or help people function much better who have severe disabilities. Some might see that as playing God. But i see it as just technology. Another would be bitcoin. Right now the US dollar is under the FED and central banking. That kind of already is the beast system. Yet a lot of focus is on what bitcoin will do to make control all of our money. Yes, in the tribulation which were are not in right now, yes maybe it will be used like that. But in the age of grace it could be the very thing to compete with central banking. And actually be a good thing.

. . . . .

Saving the best for last – I believe that John 15:12-17 was for the 1st century in many robust ways. But I would see the principle kind of prophetic too. More than prophecy proper…more like prophecy poetic. In that the more we seek to love one another in Him (not dividing and treating each other with tribal instinct) the more we will likely know what the Father is doing. I think He designed it that way, so if we really wanted to see, we’d have to make our eschatology secondary to our demonstrating love for Him toward one another genuinely. If that makes sense? Blessings.

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Me too. Let me elaborate on a few things. John 15:12-17 Jesus emphasizes the command to love one another, reflecting His own love. This passage demonstrates the transformative power of love as a foundational principle for relationships among believers. I believe this scripture highlights that focusing on love can lead to a deeper understanding of God’s workings in the world.

Rather than becoming consumed with predictions of the future, seeking to embody Christ’s love can position believers to be more attuned to God’s presence and action, thereby fostering unity and clarity in understanding the times. Aka “Occupy until I come.”

Yes, without a doubt, we can see things that are right out of the Word. As we already discussed the Iran, Israel, and, I guess, the US war. Could this lead to peace? Temporarily. Before the invasion? Yes. We are getting further and further away from God as a nation and as a world, which should not come as a surprise.

It starts slow, quiet, with a whisper. We remove God, and something else takes His place. We start teaching sin to our students in school, calling it right and just. Then we start reversing the Truth. Sin is good, and good is sin. What started as Gay Marriage then morphed into what we have today. Transgendersim, pronouns, to people saying Pedophilia is ok. Romans 1:18-32

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, and malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, and ruthless. Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."

Now there is a wealth of information here. Remember, God is telling us through His Word these things would happen.

“For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

This country was founded on the Gospel. “In God, We Trust” is on our money. Our “Declaration of Independence” states, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.” Our Constitution’s First Amendment reads this way: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” That is freedom OF Religion. NOT freedom FROM Religion. Sorry, there is no wall.

Yet? The whole reason we even exist as a country is being forgotten and done away with. We do not honor God. As a matter of fact, we as a nation violate the whole basis of our laws, the Ten Commandments, daily. But that is a whole other conversation.

“Knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 2 Peter 3:3-4

We got that. Christians openly mocked with no repercussions, Evil rising. Whispers, “God is not real.” “You are stupid to believe.” to yelling and barking, not kidding, barking, at anyone who says “Jesus” out loud.

You want to see something interesting. Go online, Instagram, X, TikTok, Whatever, if you see someone go live, Say “Jesus loves you, died for you, and wants you to be saved.” Watch the face and body change. Look at the reaction to His name. To the Truth. Some are subtle, some are drastic, some block you right after. It is an amazing thing to watch.

Continued.

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Continued part 2

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,” 1 Timothy 4:1

We have this. Look at some of these false churches popping up all over the place.

“But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.” 2 Timothy 3:1-5

Look around. You will see. What the Word tells us is plain to see. Speaking of those false churches.

“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.” 2 Timothy 4:3-4

We definitely have this. So yes. We can see quite a bit that very well could lead us to the Return of Christ. This is why You NEED Jesus. Why do you need to be saved? So that you will not be misled by the lies. So you can learn the Truth, and allow the Truth to set you free.

Having said all that, let me say this.

“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” Matthew 24:36

If I or anyone else tells you, on this day, at this time, Jesus is coming back, do not believe them. Do not believe me. Could the world end tomorrow? Yup. Could Jesus descend from heaven, open that door in the back, and walk down that aisle before I’m done speaking today? Yup. Could Jesus return a thousand years from now? Yup. See, the truth is, we have no idea. Jesus even told us we have no idea. However, the Bible does tell us this.

“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.” Luke 17:26-30

The Bible also tells us this.

“Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them. If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them awake, blessed are those servants!” Luke 12:37-38

We could spend all day talking about the end times. Armageddon. Revelations. The return of Christ. Oh, we could spend weeks breaking it all down. It WILL happen. It is coming. However, when it does, it will then be too late to do anything.

Continued.

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Continued Part 3

Jesus said this.

“And Jesus began to say to them, ‘See that no one leads you astray. Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and they will lead many astray. And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. This must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

There will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. These are but the beginning of the birth pains. But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” Mark 13:5-13

This is already starting to happen. Preachers and pastors are being arrested, Churches are being shot up and burned, and sowers of the seed are being shot. This is all taking place, and sadly, it will get worse. Remember, it was not raining, nor even cloudy, when Noah started building the Ark God told him to. All those people who mocked and failed to believe died. When the flood came, it was too late. In Sodom, the same. They continued to live in their routines. In their sins. They went about their daily lives. Then the fire fell from the sky. Too late.

The Bible says it is coming. So the question is not, will it come, or what do we do when it comes? The question is, what do we do now? As I said, we could talk for weeks about the end times. We could talk for weeks about the Antichrist. We could look around and see the decline of America. The slaughter of Christians all around the world. We could talk about the hatred of Jews. The cashless society. The one-world government. We could talk about all the signs and wonders that are depicted in the Bible. We could question, are we in the End Times?

However, none of this would be all that helpful. What is the best thing for us to do? We should do what the Bible tells us we should. “Occupy till I come.” Luke 19:13 In the ESV version, it is said this way, “Engage in business until I come.” “Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes.”

At the same time, don’t forget to look up.

Peter

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I’m no expert by far, but my study of end times events has been a blessing to me and very encouraging. I know there are many viewpoints on how things will roll out and what you’ve come to believe is not a salvation issue. I’m not here to debate or prove a point.

I do think that since the Bible is around 25% prophecy, that God intends for us to read it and study it. To put it aside or dismiss what it says was not His intention for us. It’s given for a reason. I’ve come to the belief that the church will not go through the tribulation period and that Armageddon happens at the end of the tribulation. I won’t go through why I believe that. Far too long and many others better than I have taught on it.

I like what @PeterC said. ‘Occupy until I come” and that’s what we should do. That doesn’t mean we don’t study what God has revealed about the future. We can do both. The important thing is to remember that God is in control. He knows the end from the beginning and we have absolutely nothing to fear. We can know what will happen, but we can’t know the timing. Right now there’s a lot going on and who knows where it will lead.

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A well stated and succinct caption overview I believe @Bestill. Having so much drama all around us I don’t feel should be a much of a surprise. People will overreact too like in the watcher world where it tends to get wildly obsessive – to the point the flesh orders and reorganizes how to interpret insanely over zealous interest.

But at least all of that on some level could be understood in a sense of “we have a pulse.” And so even there it is good. The world of Brandon Holthaus and Tom Hughes / Billy Crone can be interesting in ways (I had especially thought well of Tom Hughes but not so much lately). Even so, I think to some degree we have the way to look at prophecy somewhat backwards. But appreciate the level of interest.

The church at large seems to be generally uninterested, which may not surprise us. But it does help us see in general what theater or social arena actually exists in our day. Whatever the social canvas looks like, they are our mission field.

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As mentioned above, to me the whole end times things was just too untamed to consider. In some ways I consider myself, now that i have had years of a taste in it, kind of the same way…lol. Like, what the heck? Why? Why get so immersed without realizing where some to most to all of it be incorrect?

For me though it is not about fear, although I understand it might be for some. I believe the reason we might have this as a genuine filter is because it would seem the church’s understanding of our role in end times is to go around making sure this generation knows about it. “REPENT!!!” Is how we would see it.

But as reasonable as that might seem to some, i believe there is a reason Israel is on the map while the church is still here. Although I believe Christians can see the Revelation coming tribulation event and warn the world. But I don’t think Christians actually have the office of prophetic interpretation for the world.

I believe the church is not a prophet like Israel was and is still this day even in their unbelief in how God uses Israel as His end time clock. I believe the church holds an office as engaged to Christ or “the Bride.” A higher office than prophet. But not the office of prophet nonetheless. In any event i believe we are to be His witness. And the testimony of end times to me is super far more nuanced than to squander it on, “repent.’ I would see that as very 1 dimensional.

Thanks for your notice of this brother. I was never interested in end times for decades. Kind of glad i missed all of that. I would say with developments in the Middle East and even activities of Trump, it would seem God would want to get our attention, regardless of what the world is calling it or not calling it. I admire your peace of heart. Blessings.

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Hi Peter. Good to see you again brother. My initial reply since you have quite a bit on this thread.

  • Prophecy of Elam – I am not a fan of the Bill Salus Psalm 83 ideas. Perhaps there is something to it. But for me, Bill has so many moving pieces of prophecy I am not confident actually applies to our day…it keeps me completely out of that mix. Primarily because i don’t see Psalm 83 as prophecy. Maybe parts of Jeremiah are prophecy, yes. But as a whole i don’t exactly trust those “proverbs” in the mouth of said individual’s ideology.

  • So all that falls under that context I am kind of out to lunch in. I mean maybe there is some truth to how to look at end time prophecies. But I don’t, personally, believe any prophesies help us with end times concerning Iran. I mostly see these views as sensational. lol. But please keep in mind when i say that, I have a view of eschatology that seems for sure this way. So I’m right on cue.

  • Ezekiel 38 – To me this is where all the weight of prophesy ends up like a car forcing its breaks to avoid an accident and all the soda bottles under the seats end up in the backseat. I mentioned I believe we have a backwards approach to prophecy. What i mean by that is I don’t think for us the church looking at Revelation is our swan song. Ironically, I would say our swan song is what belongs to Israel that can’t be appreciated by them. I would see Ez 38 as the sub-atomic micro hand on the end time dial. The hour hand being Israel. The minute hand being Jerusalem. The second hand being the Temple. And the subatomic particles of the clock…Ez 38…all along the way.

So while we are all looking at Revelation and lining everything under the sun to be pinned to that mapping…i believe back on planet earth it is the slow and boring formation of Ez 38 as a rather unimpressive collection of criteria for our age to see. That the prophecy in the bible with the most detail on any one subject just so happens to Israel. For the world. And for the church. But we are making it about Revelation. Or so many other passages. So I would just see it kept simple in a way i reckon. Everything under the lioness of prophecy…Ez 38. The end time lighthouse that challenges the church to change hats while in motion.

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Good to see you again. This is why I do not get into the whole Pre-post Rapture debate. That is why I believe that when we see things like what we see, we need to keep an eye on the sky, and make sure that we are the children of God that God wants us to be.

This is why I believe we are told, don’t sell all you have, quit your job, and stand out in your back yard waiting to be beaned up. “Occupy until I come.” The Word declares:

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Likewise, as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so, it will be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.” Luke 17:26-30

Since Jesus also tells us that no one knows the day or the hour, and it will come as a thief in the night, when no one expects it, I say we just rest assured that no matter when, what, or how our end times comes be it worldwide, return of Christ, or a heatattack, accident, or old age:

“Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 5:8

Peter

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IN RESPONSE TO PART 1

DISCLAIMER – Peter please note that the following is a way to establish a different way I am looking at things as a believer. As one who has had decades in said ministries of “discernment.” Said ministries of those who don’t fool around. Who are not timid to run roughshod against the weak and pampered seeker friendly movements. Much of what you express brother I concur. There is massive falling away today in the human heart toward God. I totally agree with what you notice. But my end time orientation is so “vastly” different than evangelicals that I believe the best course of general address here is to help establish a clear difference of where I am coming from. Please note that I am not desirous of inciting argument. Or to challenge the views of your heart so deeply genuine toward our great Father. It is precious to witness. Amen. I am only and merely wanting to without standalone highlights offer a significant alterative consideration. One you are super free to disagree with. And that is ok. But I want to as much as possible make it clear up front where i am coming from. Which based on how different it is, could be discovered over the course of a 10 volume set. Being as this is a thread only, i try to cut to the chase as quick as possible so as to establish best discussion points from having differences most clearly articulated early on. And this is my reason for this post. I pray and hope it is understood in this light. Please do consider it as such in contrast to perhaps less formal expression lacking dearest brother (blessings in advance).

Peter, you capture something here that is core to my interest. But before i get into it, please know that my Christian upbringings is hugely along the lines of reformed thought. In one sense, a capstone ideological antibody to how I think now would be Jonathan Edwards, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” For I am no longer reformed. But as noted elsewhere I do have great love and respect for that universe. But to give an idea of how different my considerations are now (no reflection whatsoever on you or your leanings…for we have not been all that acquainted…but rather to just inform along the lines to make an impact in where i am coming from…please consider this hyperbole for effect brother), I would see Edwards famous sermon, to me, to have more consistency with the pagan god ideology than the God of the bible.

In the pagan world they appease the angry gods. This was the same mistake Moses made and for it kept out of the promised land. When God wanted to demonstrate to the people Christ (the rock of eternal refreshing water) Moses called them rebels and banged the stick twice instead of speaking to the rock. He thought the rebels needed a licking. The one who got the licking was Moses. Because Moses does not trump Christology. Rather he was to serve at the pleasure of his King.

When I look at Romans 1, I recall hearing from some that what is revealed in creation is the judgement of God. But rather, i believe the judgement of God is revealed because what is shown is not honored…not that it is the judgement of God that is displayed in creation. Some (perhaps dear brother not yourself) have seemingly expressed a similar over fascination with judgement. Perhaps even = to what we might see in over zealousness with some watcher movements even today. Please note Peter, what I am trying to do here is demonstrate the difference and why the difference in hopeful expression that lands a big enough pool splashing cannonball dive. It is not meant to challenge how you are looking at things. But rather to distinguish clearly a potential alternative consideration. For these ways of expression for me, even though not new, feel new because i am not sure how best to express, but i try. Please be patient with me…lol. I love that you have so much expression and interest, amen.

So for me in Romans 1 what holds people accountable to general revelation, to me, is not seeing God’s judgement in creation. I am not saying you are saying that. But i have heard claims from others on this. Almost to the extent that the heavens claim the wrath of God or something like that. Just to clarify it is what is understood by me there in Rom1 is what to has been made. That there is a creator. And for people to set that aside, that what God has made that is “good,” is the reason they are accountable. And His wrath is upon them.

So moving closer to my sense upon things, I find that there is a bit of irony in how I am looking at it. The reformed world is typically not looking at a tribulation to come. Rather they are looking at things to improve because the church is to bring on the return of Christ. But we are to make the bed first. But what perhaps in reformed thought is absent from being able to proclaim in our day, the evangelical church seems faithful to degree to pick up the slack therein. To me its almost like evangelicals are kind of carrying water from where the reformed eschatologist refuse to travel. I would i guess see that in general as a byproduct of Western influence and how that is worn in public by evangelicals. So in that sense we could have an arena of diagnostics as to the state of our condition.

Perhaps one reason the reformed world typically would not see a coming tribulation is because wrath would seem to have been dealt with in Christ. Which to degree I understand. As I would see great value in the atonement theory of penal substitution as well as a coming refinement/judgement for Israel as a nation and for the unbelieving world. One that is temporal but highlights what will be eternal for them if repentance not realized. Amen.

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A continuation for @PeterC + @DaughterOfEve24 specific answer…

To answer directly on this I would say that the reasons why secular media might be picking up on apocalyptic language is similar to the reason it did so with the weather and climate change just a few years ago. To sell papers, credibility, and perceived “in the know” relevancy (along with strong language to sell narratives they favor). Like barrowing the church’s language offered as charmed bait to buy-in to media relevance of coverage on things.

The reasons why political leaders and military might, is something I remember hearing several years back (during the semi-recent Syrian children refugee crisis). I remember a youtube podcast that interviewed an intelligence woman from the Syrian region. In that podcast she described how there were varying factions in the region. Each one with the intent on bringing on end times. This was in the early teens of the new millennium.

I believe another thing to consider in all of this is Iran is the Arab world poster child of using Jihad as a way to honor Allah. It is a country literally interested in capturing or destroying the world to honor Allah. This places them in pretty much everyone’s crosshairs.

The above 18-minute video is a tremendously fascinating Christian sociological look at how the Islamic world is impacted by the state of Iran currently. This channel’s main focus is Islam from a Christian perspective.

So i believe the increased apocalyptic language in general is by nature a natural phenomenon because of what Iran has esteemed themselves to be about in the world.

. . . .

Here is how I would assess the scenario for two main themes that seem to come up regarding prophetic assessment. America and Temporal Peace.

America seems to be a nation that watchers have need to see fall or collapse. However, I do not believe this is the case for either event. The general rule of thumb is that America is not in bible prophesy, so we need to see how it ends or loses influence. But my general sense on this since 2017 (and seems to be becoming more, not less, likely) is that America will become stronger not weaker. I believe the reason is for Israel.

The template most evangelicals look toward is how the 7-year tribulation in the book of Revelation is encroaching. Everything is viewed through a beast system rising. I believe there may be cross over. But that is the exact opposite way i believe to look at things. Things according to Revelation in the tribulation i believe refer to that time period. Not the age of grace. Evangelicals to me are too excited to bring the age of the tribulation into the age of grace and make it one and the same. I believe by so doing we will likely miss the import here. As what things mean in the age of grace likely mean completely different things than they will in the tribulation. Or if not completely, at least associatively different.

An example would be the Abraham Accords. Evangelicals see that as what the Antichrist will strengthen. And mostly or only that. I believe the Abraham Accords is meant to empower Israel. So they get stronger. And arrive at peace in the middle east temporally but in a major way.

. . . .

This leads to my next major feature: Fales Peace and Safety.

Evangelicals insist upon a false peace to occur. I understand that. But I do not believe our understanding of how real or false peace appears is a good toy for us to play with. I don’t believe discernment levels like that belong to us. I believe that we should not hold prophesy accountable to our estimates of false and real peace. I believe it is the other way around actually.

I believe Israel has to arrive at real peace for Ez 38 to occur. If Ez 38 is an event prior to the trib (and I believe it could be), then it would make sense something like that would be perhaps the grand shifting point into the tribulation age. I believe Ez 38 is the Old Testament way shower for our age. Because we can watch the map fill in. And it is filling in. It is the greatest data rich prophecy in the bible on any one subject. And for reason of likely being able to watch history arrive upon its very moment. In that respect, and if that be accurate, we can see that the Abaham Accords (if Ez 38 is on the literal horizon) would be a means of how Israel comes to peace and safety. Real peace and safety. But for a very short period of time. Maybe that is real. Maybe that is false. But the way i prefer to look at it is it is a a genuine enough peace to have Israel arrive at it for the first real time in almost a century. But one for the purpose of providence. Not for the purpose of peace itself. If that makes sense?

I would tend to factor this in as an event the church would still be here for up to the point of the war itself. It is likely because of my understanding of 1 Thes 5 reading, that when the rapture is possibly to occur at the same time the war comes. Because once the church is gone, God’s preserving power against a major judgement upon an unbelieving Israel now back for 80 years, would be more “exposed.” Making an allowable judgment of this size a reasonable reply from God that He turns into a major blessing for them. I believe the church likely has the opportunity to win many Jews to Christ along this path before Ez 38 proper occurs. I believe this might be God allowing the church to win more souls from Israel because God does not desire the death of the wicked. And although Israel is the chosen of God and still under the Abrahamic Covenant, they would be open to intermittent judgements along the way in relation to their needed spiritual refinement. If that makes sense?

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I share your concern. The Bible does call us to watch and be ready, but not to turn every headline into a prophecy or use biblical language to stir fear, justify war, or excite people about destruction…

Iran may factor into some people’s end-times frameworks, but faithful Christians have long differed on how to interpret those passages. What is clear is Christ calls us to discernment, prayer, and daily obedience. Armageddon should not be political. Our focus should remain on trusting the Lord, loving our neighbors, and refusing to let speculation crowd out the plain duties of the Christian life.

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First @TCC thank you for your thoughtful response. Please do not feel the need to tiptoe so much. I’m a big boy, I can handle a disagreement, or even an attack, not saying you. Rather in general. I do appericate you belief and pretty much only have a couple of questions.

Excellent way of looking at it. We agree.

Not totally sure I understand this point. I was with you that God said all of creation testifies of Him, yet people, knowing there is a God, did not recognize Him nor accept Him as such. However, then you changed to that which is good?

Do you agree? This seems to be a growing belief that no one sins because Christ died for sins. Therefore, ever since the price is paid and all go to heaven, regardless of how they live on the earth?

I do hold out little hope, but some, that a free Iran may lead to this seemingly Muslim quest to take over the world will be weakened and or completely demolished. Time will tell.

Here, I think I need more clarification as to what you are saying. Do you share the Preterist view that this all already happened?

I think it will be a real peace. I believe we are told for three and a half years? Then everything falls apart when the Antichrist reveals himself. Do you believe that? What about the Rapture? Sound like prehaps you are saying pre trib? I’m just trying to get an understanding of your thought process.

Peter

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Thank you for sharing this! You seem to have a healthy perspective on this, keeping your eyes open and being ready for Jesus’ return without getting too caught up in signs and various world events.

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All this discussion of end times events has also made me curious whether the church you (and other members in these forums) attend frequently discuss the end times. Is this a topic you hear about in church or is it something you pursue more in your own biblical study?

My current church doesn’t discuss the end times much, although they do often talk about Jesus’ Second Coming, but we do not get into the weeds of when it will happen, signs, specifics of Revelation, etc. I have found that attending a church that doesn’t miss the forest for the trees when it comes to eschatology has been very helpful in encouraging me to consider how I can live for Christ and serve others in the day to day, rather than putting so much energy into the rapture or specific end times events and timelines.

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Speaking solely for myself and my church, no. We’ve had perhaps one Bible study on the end times in the past six years. We’ve touched on it incidentally from time to time; however, given Jesus’s pronouncement that no one knows the day or time, we haven’t gotten bogged down in it.

I believe that all of our focus, all the church, children of God, should be focused on is serving God and doing our Father’s Will until this happens.

“Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore, you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.” Matthew 24:42-46

Peter

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