Maybe the critics should take their eyes off the falling and the laying on of hands and just accept that people are ministered to in all their private ways. God deals with us in the way we are receptive. This is what is to be tested, not the means God uses. What new thing did God teach or impress on a person who claims to be “slain in the Spirit”. Satan wants us to discuss the physical manifestations, rather than the holy work of God in persons. How God makes changes in us to grow us into the image of His Son may be many and few found in scripture. But it is the result of certain ministries that we are accountable to God for.
At your prompting, I went back and re-read the thread you mentioned in your post. You took a lot of heat over there, standing against many strong opinions and not-a-few strong theologians. You held your ground, but in so doing you offered many explanations for this phenomenon, which, according to you, is an outward, visible act you called, “slain in the Spirit”. You seem to be defending the genuineness of this phenomenon that you call “being slain in the Spirit”.
At times you spoke of this visible event to be a work of God’s Holy Spirit, that comes on a person, at other times you describe this event as a reenactment testimony to “dying to self”. Sometimes you describe it as being ministered to by God, as a way God speaks to an individual, at other times you seem to be considering it a way in which we serve God. At times you said it was an involuntary “being overcome” by God’s Spirit, and other times you spoke of it being voluntary expression of worship. Sometimes you consider it a private experience, and other times you speak of it as being a part of a corporate meeting. Now in this recent post you ask the question “What new thing did God teach or impress on a person who claims to be “slain in the Spirit?”, as if this phenomenon is actually a teaching vehicle God uses. You didn’t speak too much about the specific mechanics of the phenomenon, like what precipitates it, or what brings it on, or if a person can cause it to happen, or keep it from happening, but most of the time you spoke of it as being spontaneous, unexpected, and wholly “spirit inspired”. I hear you, and I’m trying to understand you.
Now, this time you start your thread with the title question: “Which is real, what is visible or what is not?”
You open by charging your opposition with being “critics” who are focusing on the wrong thing.
I don’t think I’m a critic, but I accept your admonition. I appreciate that “people are ministered to (served) in all their private ways”. To be sure, certain occurrences are meaningful to one person that may be meaningless to another. But I’m wondering if you are now suggesting that the visible outward manifestation of being “slain in the Spirit” is evidence of “God invisibly serving a person” personally, in their own unique way? To be candid, reading your explanations, I feel like I’m chasing a sales-receipt through the Walmart parking lot on a windy day.
I get this particular Pentecostal phenomenon is meaningful to you personally, and as you have said:
This is the way you are wired, and I appreciate that. I actually agree with you in this.
You consider yourself a “Pentecostal leader” in your role at public meetings, as you have said:
I see you take your responsibility as a leader very seriously. I don’t necessarily agree with your conclusion, that it is misunderstanding God’s power that causes saints to reject (rule-out) certain practices, nor it is always a “fear of losing control”. You may be right that this happens in some situations, but not right in that you think it is “ordinary”. There are many noble reasons to reject some practice as being disingenuous. The most obvious reason to reject a practice is when it has no biblical precedent, no biblical instruction, no teaching to expect it, nor any indications of it ever happening at any time in the future, and the same practice contradicts some very clear biblical teaching. There are other strong reasons to reject some practices, but this particular set of reasons is much more “ordinary”, and much more righteous (IMHO).
With all that as epilog, I come to your original question: “Which is real, what is visible or what is not?”.
You say:
I’m not so sure it is Satan who is prompting this discussion about a physical manifestation, but I agree with you that we can discuss the holy work of God in a person apart from this particular act. I agree that how God transforms us, renewing our mind is, in many ways, very mysterious. I am not sure what you mean by “But it is the result of certain ministries that we are accountable to God for.”. Maybe you could explain that idea to me. Maybe you can also explain to me your ideas about why the physical manifestation of being “slain in the Spirit” is important to defend, if the important part is really “the holy work of God in persons”?
This is certainly a deep discussion, and I appreciate the effort to keep it grounded in truth. I often find myself returning to 2 Corinthians 4:18: “So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.” That verse has helped me test spiritual experiences by the Word, rather than feelings or manifestations.
I’m not part of a Pentecostal tradition, so I haven’t witnessed this particular practice firsthand. But I do wonder: if something is truly of the Spirit, wouldn’t it always lead us closer to Christ in holiness and in obedience to His Word?
I think we all want to be sure we’re not chasing wind, but walking in truth.
“The most obvious reason to reject a practice is when it has no biblical precedent…instruction…teaching and the practice contradicts some very clear biblical teaching.” I think I do reject or at least question the practice of people being “slain in the Spirit”, but not necessarily the phenomenon itself. If someone standing in your congregation suddenly falls after something you said and later tells you God caused him to fall and then ministered to his spirit while he was on the ground, that would be something you might give a name to later on, but for that person, it was just a way that God ministered to them. The phenomenon is not what I would reject. But the practice of such phenomena I would watch over carefully. I think we are discussing the practice of having services where "slaying in the Spirit goes on. Non-charismatics or non-Pentecostals may not reject the phenomenon itself but do reject the practice, because once there is a practice, it is repeatable, and there seems to be something we can organize and announce ahead of time. I find that when we call it “practice”, we handle it different than if it were an isolated phenomenon. We detach ourselves from it and give ourselves permission to critique it. It is true that where this thing happens in Christian services there usually is expectation that is will. It is rare, but occasionally it does happen when one is alone. The suggestibility factor is real, and I do not like services where a certain minister is known ahead of time as one who brings in “slaying in the Spirit” and the falling seems to be something that minister causes. I believe in the authenticity of the phenomenon of falling much more than the “practice” of holding such services where it is expected. Many other Pentecostal ministers disagree. I have noticed that many fall in similar ways that they see others falling. So, at times, this phenomenon is not just a spiritual thing. It has a social component. When it is programmed, it becomes a practice and that introduces the human element of suggestion and possible pushing. For some the expectedness of falling might indicate that the falling is contrived, but for others it is not and is truly a way God ministers to certain persons.
The experience of falling under the influence of the Holy Spirit as a phenomena of God’s design is preparatory to it being a “teaching vehicle that God uses.” But not always. Some others come away saying they just felt the love of God or His abiding presence, or a healing in their body. I think it is most genuine when it is unexpected, but not always. It seems that the more expected this phenomenon is, the less true change we see in the person who fell. But I really can’t judge this and do pray for all who want this experience that it will be a private time with God for them.
Yes, It would, and I have seen that it does in me and in many others. Jesus Christ has come alive for me more after the few experiences I have had with falling under the Spirit’s influence.
I appreciate your perspective, and I believe I understand the distinction you are making between what you are calling “the phenomenon” and “a practice”.
I am wholly unqualified to speak to the authenticity of another person’s private experience. While I have personally had very meaningful and uplifting intimate experiences with our Father, none of them induced falling, or any kind of syncope in me. The uplifting personal experiences I have had with our Father do have similar counterparts with believers in the Bible. I know of no personal experience with God in the bible that manifest in falling, or loss of physical control. Those instances where people did lose physical control of their bodies in the presence of Holiness are of a very different sort than what we are discussing, and those have been adequately covered in the other thread you mentioned.
I sincerely appreciate your stance to reject showmanship, pretense, social mimicking, or any nefarious reason to facilitate this event in a gathering of professing saints. Jesus is The Truth, and we are people of The Truth. This is noble, and applauded.
I also appreciate your compassionate and accepting heart that is not quick to judge another person’s testimony of what has happened to them personally. Jesus is Love and “Love thinks no evil, does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:5-7). We are people of Love.
God is expressing Himself, to the lost world, through His body of believers. Truth and Love are obvious manifest expressions of the sanctifying work of God in a person’s life and they are visible evidence of the real presence of God in a person’s outward expressions of their relationship with Him. The world knows we are His, and He is in us by our Love for one another, and by our unwavering dedication to The Truth. Every gift of The Holy Spirit, or manifestation of His presence makes an undeniable announcement of who God is; wind speaks of His ominous Spirit, fire speaks of his consuming wrath, tongues speak of his unifying presence, healings speak of our sure resurrection, etc. They are not “ministering” to the individual but visible expressions of invisible God; clearly understood representations of our mysterious Eternal God. So far, I am unable to see falling, or being slain as any kind of representation of God who is the founder and giver of life and ressurection. I am still growing, so maybe someday I’ll understand this too.
Acts 9:4 speaks of a confrontation by the Holy Spirit that caused Saul to lose control and fall to the ground. God proceeded to tell Saul of His mission to the Gentiles, similar to what I know of the kind of talk people say that
I believe that Saul falling to the ground when he was confronted on the Damascus road is an example of loss of control under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Right, I know you do. I hear you. I don’t doubt you.
We have discussed this before.
The very blatant difference between what you are describing as The Holy Spirit expressing his presence by causing a person to swoon, (be slain), is quite contrary to the account of Jesus Himself appearing to the very rebellious and antagonistic Saul of Tarsus while he was on a mission to imprison and persecute the very Body of Jesus, His precious flock.
The complete soul-crushing fear that Saul experienced when physically confronted with the full majesty of Jesus, a confrontation which also resulted in his blindness, is not unprecedented in Scripture.
Abraham (Genesis 17:3): When God appeared to Abram and spoke with him about the covenant, Abram “fell facedown” in response to God’s presence.
Joshua (Joshua 5:14-15): When Joshua encountered the commander of the Lord’s army, he “fell on his face to the earth and worshiped”.
Isaiah (Isaiah 6:5) When Isaiah saw The Lord, High and lifted up, and the Seraphim sang” Holy Holy Holy”, he was crushed and exclaimed “Woe is me” (Oy Vey) I am undone (disintegrated)
Ezekiel (Ezekiel 1:28, 3:23): Upon seeing “the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord,” the prophet Ezekiel immediately “fell on [his] face” to the ground.
Daniel (Daniel 8:17, 10:8-10, 10:15): Daniel had several encounters with divine beings that left him physically incapacitated.
The people of Israel at Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:16; 20:18-19): The people were terrified by the thunder, lightning, and trumpet sound when God appeared on Mount Sinai. They “trembled and stood afar off” and begged Moses to speak with God on their behalf, so they would not die.
Peter, James, and John on the mount of transfiguration (Matthew 17:6): When a bright cloud overshadowed Jesus and a voice from heaven spoke, they “fell on their faces and were greatly afraid”.
There may be more I’m forgetting…
Surely you see the vast difference in these accounts (above) from what is often performed in a Christian meeting, is considered to be part of worship, and is usually described as ecstatic (wonderful, pleasant, peaceful). Quite dissimilar from the common soul-crushing fear and unabated trembling experienced by those who offer their testimonies of divine encounter in The Bible.
The point I, and others, have been making is not judging the practice, or suggesting its cause (I have no expertese in that area), only that what you are describing as being “slain-in-the-Spirit” is not found in the pages of The Bible. It shares only physical falling with other accounts that are in the Bible, but shares nothing else, in fact it remains quite contrary to all the other examples of people’s “crushing” due to an encounter with God. The fact that some people “fell down” in the Bible for various reasons, does not prove that any or all falling, in any religious setting, is therefore due to a divine encounter.
I personally call the phenomena of falling under the Holy Spirit “being ministered to by the Holy Spirit” instead of being “slain in the Holy Spirit” I don’t encourage the practice of this, but I do recognize and value the phenomenon of this falling especially as I hear of the real ministry people say they have experienced. I used to doubt that people really spoke or prayed in tongues until I heard of people having this happen to them in isolation and away from all witnesses. The same with “ministering by the Holy Spirit”. When I hear of this happening in private and away from the influence of any minister or group, I value it higher than when I see it in the church around others who it happens to. I am naturally skeptical about things announced and scheduled, but not totally closed to the possibility of genuine ministering by the Holy Spirit in public this way. Incidents of lost people being overpowered by God’s Spirit are seen in Scripture, but I do not see that if the experience happens to a Christian it would be any different, since they too resist God at times and need to come to that submission that God wants. Human resistance may not always be because of rebellion. Sometimes resistance happens simply because we are not used to something new to us, or because a person needs more teaching on an aspect of the Gospel. There is something about falling that suggests to me “Lord take all of me, even my dignity and control. I surrender to you. I give every bit of me to your service.” It is like the “Speak Lord for servant hears” of Samuel.
@peaceful23
In humble response, I’m sure you and I use the word “minister” quite differently, as I garner your personal meaning from the context in which you use it. The way you are using the word creates a difficulty for me; a difficulty trying to understand you, and your point of view.
I am familiar with the conversational use of the word “minister” in ecclesiastic settings, and the word’s various derivatives. Through the years Christians have organized “Women’s ministries”, “Bus ministries”, “outreach ministries”, “groundskeeping ministries” etc., we hire “ministers” as pastors, we contribute to “charitable ministries”, and we say we “minister” to one-another in our various functions and fellowship. These all loosely define Christian organizations, groups, or individuals who “serve” in one form or another. Therefore “ministry” is “serving, and Christian ministry is Christian serving. But now you are using the word in the phrase “being ministered to by the Holy Spirit” and “ministering by the Holy Spirit” in a novel way for me. The very concept of one who serves (a servant) is a relationship to the master (the one served). You are suggesting that The Holy Spirit of God is “serving” (ministering to) the individual by facilitating or causing them to lose control, possibly faint, and fall down. This is supposedly an abrupt acting on the individual from the Holy Spirit of God who, we are told, indwells (“resides in” 1 Cor. 6:9) the same individual permanently, and eternally; you are suggesting this is “an inside job”, as all the other Biblical examples of “falling due to God’s presence” came upon the person from the outside.
We know from God’s own revelation of Himself that the indwelling Spirit of God functions as a guarantee of eternal security (2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5), The Source of true life, (Jn. 6:63, 7:39, Rom. 8:9-11), a paraclete / advocate against claims of the evil one (the accuser)(Rom. 8:26, , a teacher/reminder of all that Jesus has said (Jn 14:26l 15:26), and the source of “fruit” in the life of the individual (branches) that demonstrates the Glory of God (Jn 15:5, Gal. 5:22). The “charismata” (gifts) of which you speak outwardly express the indwelling of God, and are always expressed (given) for the Glory of God, to extol Him alone (..we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. 2 Cor. 4:7), and quite intentionally designed to not to “serve” the person through whom He is expressing himself (Isa. 42:8, 43:7). I understand the sense of awe, and feeling of wonder associated with being used by God to express Himself to the world in some way; I don’t understand the suggestion that that same feeling of awe is representative of God serving me, as if I am the master (one served) and He the subordinate (minister).
Your testimony of how something supposedly happening “out of view” makes it more credulous to you, I understand. I understand that the ostentatiousness of the event is eliminated, and therefore not a factor. I appreciate that, but testimonies of something happening “out of view” are also quite hard to prove, since anyone who would put on a performance for a crowd, would likewise not have any problem testifying that it happened in private also. I appreciate your believing heart, as Love believes all things, and so all of us Christians are more prone to “gullibility”. This is why we have The Word of God, against which we can test all things. You accept these phenomena even though they have no Biblical support, and I understand that. For me, the acceptance of a claim that God is doing something that He never said He would do, and which seems contrary to what He did say He would do is harder for me to accept.
Rejoice always,
pray without ceasing,
in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
Do not quench the Spirit.
Do not despise prophecies.
Test all things; hold fast what is good.
Abstain from every form of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:16-22
Just as I believe that prayer is both ways (i.e. speaking to God and listening), the person waiting on God, is sometimes waiting for God to speak back or give him a fresh understanding or an inspiration or revelation (that would agree with the Scripture). When the Holy Spirit is talking to us, whether for teaching, for reproof, for correction or for training in righteous, I call that being “ministered to by the Holy Spirit”. Of course we minister to the Lord hopefully all the time. But He is not a stone that cannot minister to us at the same time. You seem to focus on the loss of control and especially the falling of a person, when the most important thing is what God is doing at that moment in the person’s spirit. The falling is about as important as whether the person is facing one direction or another. What happens physically is the least important thing when they are communing with God.
As a sociologist, you may look on the outwards appearance of things in worship and get lost as to what really is going on. As a pastor, I would observe that this person as being in the middle of a conversation with his/her personal God and h/she is not resisting God’s influence, so h/she may fall or may not, but the main thing is that the person will come from that personal time with God as changed in some way.