Who Is Responsible For Jesus Death?

Theology
21

Yes, Adam’s sin is where the problem begins in history. Through him, sin and death enter the human condition, and that’s why redemption becomes necessary for us at all. Scripture is explicit on that point:

Romans 5:12[1]

So in that sense, you’re absolutely right that without the fall, there would be no need for atonement as we experience it.

But where I’d push back a bit is your idea that Jesus’ “charge” from the Father only exists because of Adam’s sin, as if it were a kind of backup plan. The New Testament doesn’t present the cross that way. It consistently shows that what happened at the cross was already determined in God’s eternal purpose, not something improvised after the fall.

Acts 2:23[2]

That phrase “definite plan” is important. It means the cross wasn’t accidental or reactive. It was intentional from the outset.

And even more strongly…

Revelation 13:8[3]

So here’s the balance I think Scripture holds, and it’s worth keeping both sides together.

Adam’s sin explains why redemption is necessary in human history.

But Christ’s mission doesn’t originate in Adam. It originates in God’s eternal will, with the cross and the resurrection at the center of that plan.

So I’d suggest reframing what you said like this, the fall didn’t create Christ’s mission, it created the historical context in which that already-determined mission is carried out… and this aligns it more closely with the way Scripture actually speaks.

2 cents.

J.

  1. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned - ESV ↩︎

  2. this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men - ESV ↩︎

  3. the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world - ESV ↩︎

22

@riverbank

The whole human race did not literally crucify Jesus, but the sins of the whole human race are the reason He was crucified, and therefore all humanity shares in the guilt that made His death necessary.

Shalom brother.

J.

1 Like
23

I would say that Isaiah 53 speaks to this with striking clarity and force.

Isa 53:1 ‘Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.
Isa 53:3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.’
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
Isa 53:11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
JPS.

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the Zero’a Hashem [Yeshayah 52:10] revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a Shoresh (Root, Shoresh Yishai, Moshiach, Yeshayah 11:10, Sanhedrin93b) out of a dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire [Chaggai 2:7] him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and chadal ishim (rejected by men); a man of sorrows, and acquainted with suffering; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei’avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach’s) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a seh (lamb; see Shemot 12:3) to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who of his generation declared? For he was cut off [ Dan_9:26 ; Lev_17:10 ] out of Eretz Chayyim [this refers to the mot of Moshiach Ben Dovid, see Isa_53:12 ] mipesha ami (for the transgression of my people [Yisroel]) -nega (plague cf Psa_91:10 ) lamo ([fell] on him [i.e., Moshiach; in light of Psa_11:7 and Job_22:2 we are warranted in saying the suffix is a singular, “him,” not “them”. Cf Gen_9:26-27 ; Deu_33:2 ; Isa_44:15 ; also compare 1Ch_21:17 ]).
Isa 53:9 And he made his kever (grave) with the resha’im, and with the oisher (rich man; see Mt 27:57-60) bemotayv (in his deaths, intensive plural should be translated singular, death); because he had done no chamas (violence), neither was any mirmah (deceit) in his mouth. T.N. We stray as sheep; we return in Moshiach as children (zera); the Techiyas HaMoshiach (Resurrection of Moshiach) predicted in v. 10 [Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah Scroll says Moshiach “will see the light [of life];” see also the Targum HaShivim]
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach’s] hand.
Isa 53:11 He [Hashem] shall see of the travail of his [Moshiach’s] nefesh, and shall be satisfied; by knowledge of him [Moshiach] shall Tzadik Avdi [“My Righteous Servant,” Moshiach, Zecharyah 3:8, Yirmeyah 23:5; Zecharyah 6:11-12, Ezra 3:8 Yehoshua, Yeshua shmo] justify many (Ro 5:1); for he [Moshiach] shall bear their avon (iniquities).
Isa 53:12

J.

1 Like
24

No. He was displaying to those there that the only way we can be forgiven of sin IS His sacrifice. That if there was any other way, He would not have to suffer all He did. There is not. Therefore, the only way for us is through His sacrifice. He wasn’t conflicted. He was showing that there is no other way.
Peter

25

PeterC,
"No. He was displaying to those there that the only way we can be forgiven of sin IS His sacrifice. That if there was any other way, He would not have to suffer all He did. "

I don’t see how you get that from that verse, (Mark 14:36). The Messiah said to His Father that He (the Messah) knew that all things were possible for Him (the Father) to do. He (the Messah) didn’t say that going though the up coming events was the only possible way to be forgiven of sin. Remember, all things were possible for the Father to do. However, He (the Messah) didn’t want to do it the way that was coming, but if that was the particular way His Father wanted to do it that He would honor His Father’s wishes.

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Matthew 26:39[1]

Luke 22:42[2]

Hebrews 9:22[3]

Hebrews 10:4[4]

Hebrews 10:10[5]

John 14:6[6]

Acts 4:12[7]

1 Peter 3:18[8]

Isaiah 53:5[9]

2 Corinthians 5:21[10]

J.

  1. And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” ESV ↩︎

  2. Saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.” ESV ↩︎

  3. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. ESV ↩︎

  4. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. ESV ↩︎

  5. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ESV ↩︎

  6. Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” ESV ↩︎

  7. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” ESV ↩︎

  8. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God… ESV ↩︎

  9. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. ESV ↩︎

  10. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. ESV ↩︎

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Johann,

PeterC responded to my comment regarding Mark 14:36. It was to that verse that I was referring to in my last post to PeterC.

BTW, you quote Matthew 26:39 which uses the phrase: “if it be possible”. Mark 14:36 uses the phrase: “all things are possible”. Big difference. So, which is it?

The Amplified Bible adds their take on the phrase “if it is possible” by adding in brackets, [that is, consistent with Your will] after the phrase.

28

So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”

This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

“My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me”

There are several extremely important aspects to this phrase. From Mark’s parallel we understand that He used the Aramaic term “Abba,” which referred to an intimate, family relationship. It is often translated “Daddy.” In a few brief hours this will change to “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (cf. Mat_27:46). The phrase “if it is possible” (first class conditional sentence) is found in the Markan parallel (cf. Mar_14:36) in the phrase “all things are possible.” The slight variation between Mat_26:35; Mat_26:42 and the variation between the Gospels do not minimize the fact that, from Mat_26:44, we realize that Jesus prayed the same prayer three times.

The concept of “the cup” in biblical usage reflected an Old Testament symbol for the destiny of a person, usually in the sense of the judgment of God (cf. Psa_75:8; Isa_51:17; Isa_51:22; Jer_25:15-16; Jer_25:27-28). The cup of judgment that God had prepared for rebellious mankind was consumed to the dredges by the innocent Son of God (cf. 2Co_5:21; Gal_3:13).

“yet not as I will, but as You will”

The pronouns “I” and “You” are in the emphatic position in the Greek. This, combined with the use of first class and Third class conditional sentences in Mat_26:42, shows us the intent of the Son in His prayer. Though His human nature cries out for deliverance, His heart is set on fulfilling the will of the Father in substitutionary atonement (cf. Mar_10:45).

Are you suggesting that in Gethsemane Jesus was expressing a desire for a different plan of redemption, @rstrats?

J.

29

Johnn,
re: "So Jesus said to Peter, ‘Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?’”

That was the Father’s will. The Messiah’s will was to obey His Father.

re: “This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.”

That was the Father’s will.

re: “Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”

That was the Father’s will.

re: "There are several extremely important aspects to this phrase. From Mark’s parallel we understand that He used the Aramaic term “Abba,” which referred to an intimate, family relationship. It is often translated “Daddy.” In a few brief hours this will change to “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (cf. Mat_27:46). "

I don’t see your point.

re: "The phrase ‘if it is possible’ (first class conditional sentence) is found in the Markan parallel (cf. Mar_14:36) in the phrase ‘all things are possible’.

It is only parallel to the extent that the two accounts are referring to the same event, not to the same meaning.

re: “The slight variation between Mat_26:35; Mat_26:42 and the variation between the Gospels do not minimize the fact that, from Mat_26:44, we realize that Jesus prayed the same prayer three times.”

Again, I don’t see your point.

re: “Are you suggesting that in Gethsemane Jesus was expressing a desire for a different plan of redemption, @rstrats?”

How else could “not what I will but what you will” be understood?

30

Is Jesus not God in the flesh? YHWH’s will and Yeshua’s will not echad?

The prophecy in Book of Isaiah chapter 53 was written roughly 700 years before the life and crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

More precisely, the prophet Isaiah ministered during the 8th century BC, typically dated around 740–680 BC, during the reigns of kings like Uzziah and Hezekiah.

Why a prophecy if there was a possibility Yeshua would change His will?

Doesn’t make sense, now does it?

J.

31

It certainly is a conundrum. What you’re saying has it being the Messiah’s will and Mark 14:36 saying that it isn’t.

32

You really have to learn to READ the whole Word. Jesus is God. He was illustrating that this was the only way, and that He is the only one who can do it. Remember, Jesus said this.

"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have the authority to lay it down, and I have the authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” John 10:18

God the Son, the Messiah, the Word in the flesh, was given this authority by God the Father, to fulfil what could never be fulfilled any other way.
Peter

33

You answered your own question. Good job.
Peter

34

We are “ALL” responsible for Jesus Death…”ALL have sinned and fall short of the kingdom…”.

We “ALL” must hang on the cross and be raised up through baptism with the Holy Spirit and be born from above, or born again. We are ALL responsible. No one gets a free pass. Yes Jesus did the heavy lifing to please GOD the Father by putting Himself in “OUR” place on the cross. In other words “WE”, “ALL” were condemned unto death on that cross, Jesus today stands as our advocate against the devil who attempts to accuse us of condemnation before God.

1 Like
35

I think part of the reason this question comes up is because there are different layers to it.

Historically, there were specific people involved. But at the same time, Scripture also points to something bigger, that it was both the result of human actions and also something Jesus willingly entered into.

So it’s not just about assigning blame to one group or another. It’s more about understanding what it means and why it happened.

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