I would put it this way-We don’t earn salvation, but our faithfulness on earth will affect our rewards and responsibilities in the coming kingdom.
J.
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Thanx for your thoughts, and thanx for responding to my post (#16).
I appreciate the tapestry of ideas you have woven for us to look at. I want to hear you clearly, and understand what you are conveying.
To put your position concisely, you are saying the reason God created the universe is to:
- Provide a material context in which humans can know Him in an experiential way.
- Provide humans a material context within which they can demonstrate who they choose to be.
- Provide a place for us to earn our position in heaven.
Have I understood you correctly?
I do see some loose threads on your tapestry, and I won’t pull on them unless you are willing to have them pulled. There is a chance the tapestry may unravel, at least partially, but it may also hold together, at least essentially. It’s up to you.
Thanks again.
KP
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Yeah well said! Thank you for the feedback.
I will give a little background - Ive been a Christian for 54 years. After about 37 of those years, I was well versed in the Bible, well acquainted with God and Jesus, and life was going really well.
Then came a time of catastrophic loss. Everything. Face down, screaming-into-the-carpet type of loss. I never lost my faith, but I lost every sense of why God does things or allows things etc. Doesn’t He love me? Did I deserve all this? I promise, the “God moves in mysterious ways” answer is like rock salt grinding into the wounds.
I spent many years exploring the POE (Problem of Evil), and all the related issues. And God has brought me to a place of spiritual and intellectual satisfaction, by His great love and mercy.
One thing I have craved is substantive scrutiny at every point. God is truth - I want to believe every bit of Him and His truth. So I feel this is a wonderful resource to have fellow seasoned believers give their learned perspectives.
Pull every thread brother!
Not here to “pull threads” certainly I won’t.
There are questions, and THEN there are questions, some to dokimazo, some to peiradzo.
Leave you with this @Pater15
Ephesians 4:11–12 – “And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ.”
This is the clearest verse: the reason God gave leaders is to equip (Greek: katartismos, “complete, furnish, prepare”) the saints, so that all believers serve.
2 Timothy 3:16–17 – “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
Here the tool of equipping is Scripture itself, shaping believers for every good work.
Hebrews 13:20–21 – “Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”
This shows that equipping is ultimately God’s work in us through Christ.
Colossians 1:28–29 – “Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.”
Equipping is done through proclamation and teaching, with the goal of maturity in Christ.
2 Corinthians 9:8 – “And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.”
God equips by pouring grace so believers abound in service.
So the equipping of the saints is-
through leaders (Ephesians 4:11–12)
through Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16–17)
through God’s own work in us (Hebrews 13:20–21)
through proclamation and teaching (Colossians 1:28–29)
through grace for good works (2 Corinthians 9:8).
Keep up the good work.
J.
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Pater15
Your story is very much like my own; almost 50 years ago it was brought to my attention that God knew me, and loved me. At that time, He filled me with a love for His word, which has not abated since. About mid-term, I too suffered catastrophe, from which I fear I will never fully recover this-side of glory. Like you, I was well versed in the Bible, but discovered how little I understood God. Since then I keep growing in my understanding, while HE keeps growing in mystery, grandeur, and unapproachable light. It’s as if I met God at the small point of a funnel, in an approachable human person who was affable, loving, and obviously interested in me. As I venture into the God-funnel, the further I advance, the bigger He gets, and the less I feel confident I have even begun to know Him. As our Brother Paul has said: "When I was a child… (1 Cor 13:11-12)
‘nuff ‘bout me.
We are discussing the question: “Why Did God make the Universe?” I admit, I have not actually probed very deeply into this funnel-of-love in which I find myself drifting, just 50 years past its opening, but I can see far enough ahead of me to know I am still inside the vast universe which, like a drop of water, is still adhered neatly against the inside wall in the narrow neck of this funnel. From my vantage point, if our material universe does not extend outside the neck of the funnel, I have begun to wonder how small the funnel might be inside the reality expanse of Eternal God.
I sincerely appreciate your speculation that our universe was created to provide an environment for God’s material image-bearers to grow, learn to know themselves, learn to know God, and learn to become more godly. Your analogy of “bubble beings”, who live in colonies, on the surface of ponds, equipped with eternal souls, personalities, personal experiences, a conscience, and a low IQ, (but a strong sense of humor), is heard. I very much enjoyed the metaphor. This world of “bubble people” you say “would be a very different context than ours”. Is it though? It is a great metaphor, but it is here we encounter our first thread to pull. I have no thread to pull with the “bubble people”, but only with how you extended the metaphor; speaking of God, you said:
Pulling on this tread I find it is in need of rephrasing, mostly because it begins with an impossibility; it begins with “He wants”, which can never be. I do get what you are saying though.
Next you say:
implying that God can’t force someone to be His friend. The same thread needs pulled here because of the same impossibility, which is, nothing is impossible with God. It is impossible for something we can imagine to be impossible to God who we can’t imagine.
Then you said:
Which actually has two threads to pull. The first “He decides” can’t be quite right. God deciding infers God changing in some way, which He does not do; He is “the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. (James 1:17), so the term “decides” can’t be quite right, although I acquiesce that we hardly have another way to express any movement we observe in God. The second thread “entered into our context”, infers God comes “into” something (somewhere) He was “out of”. This is also an impossibility.
You said:
I’m holding onto these two threads a bit. I’m not sure if I should pull them or let them be.
Then you say:
I get it. Paul stated your postulate this way:
“For the earnest expectation of the creation (including the universe) eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”
This passage personifies creation, and by extension, the Universe. It gives the universe symbolic personality because it speaks of creation “expecting” something, and also being “unwilling”. Paul is saying that the material creation was placed into reality with a “sell-by” date. It was allowed to exist but began with a count-down clock attached to it, an expiration stamp. As the universe was developed it was also subjected to futility, (uselessness). But, it was subjected to futility “in hope”. Hope here is not “an uncertain desire” but “hope” is a fixed reality that is yet to happen. Here we see a small glimpse of the purpose of God; a fading shadow that outlines Hope.
“What if God, willing to demonstrate His wrath, and intending to make His power known, with much patient endurance, (this is the fruit of His Spirit, btw), put-up with the objects of His wrath, created with a sell-by date, prepared for destruction, that He might lavish the riches of His glory on His recipients of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory; That’s us, those whom He called, not just the Jews only, but also of the non-Jews?”
I’ve run out of available characters for a single post….. more later.
This is a superb and quite comprehensive account. I appreciate it - that’s a lot of work.
The meta-question it raises is - why should any of this be necessary? Couldn’t God have created a better sort of human who didn’t need all of this?
But since we do need all of this (as God knows), He created this present context so that we can go through the process of participating in its benefits.
Another question then arises - to what end? To make the world a better place? To reestablish the paradise He intended? Or might it be something else?
Ha ha I hate when I run out of characters!
I will pull one of your threads to start with - there are many things that are impossible for God to do, as I’m sure you’ll agree. God cannot sin. God cannot utter an incoherence. God cannot deny Himself.
We call it “the law of identity”, which is a philosophical concept that has its grounding in God’s immutable nature (the same as all truth). When God creates an apple, He did not create an orange. There is no such thing as a married bachelor, or a round square.
So, God is absolutely, certainly limited by His nature in what He can do.
If I say that God “wants” something, that doesn’t intend to imply that God wants something that He didn’t want before. As you say, this is incredibly important to understand. God was in no wise taken by surprise when Satan decided to rebel, or when Adam and Eve sinned.
God could have created us with every bit of knowledge and inclination to be His perfect servants. But that would have caused some sort of deficiency in us that He finds valuable. God finds it to be more valuable that we choose to believe Him, and obey Him, and love Him. True love requires that it not be coerced, or forced, or created from whole cloth. Just like a square circle, forced love does not exist. He cannot force us to be His friends.
His revelation of Himself to us is a long, unfolding story that has its full value in eternity. As we are still in the midst of the process, it takes on the properties of a story, with a beginning, a middle, an end, a denouement. God, of course, knows the end from the beginning. It’s an unchangeable story to Him. To us, we need to give proper attention to writing our own story, because it matters.
Right, Thanks for the elaboration.
I find it very difficult to write, (or speak) of God, or things eternal, without having to rely on words that fail to accurately represent truth; “God wanted…”, “God decided…”, “God tried to…”, “God hopes…”, “God would have…”, “God is unable to…”,etc. The weakness of our language often reduces God to something far less than He is, or burdens God with something he surely isn’t. Some of this difficulty is elucidated by Paul in the second chapter of first Corinthians; his difficulty with expressing the reality of God in a way it could be grasped by others with whom he was trying to communicate. I get it.We simply do not fit an ocean into a dropper bottle. So often I fall back on the trust I have, remembering that “as a father pities his children, So the Lord pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.” (Ps 103:13-14)
Regarding our topic: “Why Did God make the Universe?”
You said:
This “Mystery box” of yours must be huge, I can’t imagine the required size of a container sufficient for this use. For me, I actually can’t imagine this box; it is more probable for me to imagine a box where the “answerable questions” about God get deposited. But that’s just me.
It is both the glory and prerogative of God to conceal a matter, because everything of God is concealed until it is revealed. He reveals portions of reality in such a way that our brains-of-dust can grasp some of it, and meditate on the rest of it.
Isaiah 40: 12-14
“Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand,
Measured heaven with a span
And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure?
Weighed the mountains in scales
And the hills in a balance?
Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord,
Or as His counselor has taught Him?
With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him,
And taught Him in the path of justice?
Who taught Him knowledge,
And showed Him the way of understanding?
Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;
Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.
And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.
All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
So, your three postulates: God created the universe is to:
- Provide a material context in which humans can know Him in an experiential way.
- Provide humans a material context within which they can demonstrate who they choose to be.
- Provide a place for us to earn our position in heaven.
Certainly do describe what God has done, but the “why”, for me, is still very elusive. Your three postulates may in-fact be included in the ultimate answer, but I feel there is much more unknown in the answer to this question than we have surmised here.
Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
“For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
“Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever.
Amen.
We’re all in this “funnel-of-Love” together.
I appreciate the discussion.
Your Bro.
KP
P.S.
"No man can be altogether known by his works, much less can God. God’s universe is so immense that if it can be proved to be a full revealing of Himself, it is too vast for our mental grasp. How can we know all that the universe would teach? The works of God are too many for us to know them all. How then can we learn the many-sided wisdom which they would reveal? If they were replicas we might learn all from one, but as they are infinitely various our capacity is overflooded and there is urgent need that divine condescension should make an abstract for us and communicate it in a manner suited to our nature. "
C.H Spurgeon - Honest Faith.
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Leaning toward reformed theology brother @KPuff ?
J.
I just read “widely”.
KP
So do I, and as to your question-
Isaiah 43:7 – “everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”
Psalm 19:1 – “The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.”
Revelation 4:11 – “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”
Numbers 14:21 – “But truly, as I live, and as all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord…”
For Christ
Colossians 1:16 – “For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth… all things were created through him and for him.”
John 1:3 – “All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
Hebrews 2:10 – “For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.”
To Reveal God’s Nature
Romans 1:20 – “For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.”
Psalm 8:1, 3–4 – “O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! … When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars… what is man that you are mindful of him?”
To Provide a Context for Humanity and Stewardship
Genesis 1:26–28 – “Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion…’”
Isaiah 45:18 – “For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens… who formed the earth and made it… he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!”
For Redemption and Eternal Purpose
Ephesians 1:9–10 – “making known to us the mystery of his will… as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.”
2 Timothy 1:9 – God “saved us… because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.”
Revelation 21:1–3 – Creation points forward to its renewal, where God will dwell with His people.
So, Scripture shows the world was created for God’s glory (Isa 43:7, Rev 4:11), for Christ and through Him (Col 1:16, Heb 2:10), to reveal God’s power and nature (Rom 1:20, Ps 19:1), to provide a dwelling for humanity and stewardship (Gen 1:26–28, Isa 45:18), and to set the stage for redemption and eternal union with God in Christ (Eph 1:10, Rev 21:3).
That explains not only the how but also the why and the ultimate purpose, brother.
J.
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Amen @Johann brother.
Let me say first, how much I appreciate this discussion! It’s pretty awesome.
I’m not sure I am understanding what you are saying in a couple places. For example,you say that I must have a massive “mystery box”, and that yours doesn’t exist. I haven’t appealed to “God’s mysterious ways a single time, while you have repeatedly done so, even in this thread. So that seems oddly incoherent. When I say “mystery box”, I mean our tendency to use God’s mysterious ways as an answer to anything we that don’t understand. I’ll give you an example.
We know that God’s thoughts are different than our thoughts. We think in analog fashion. A stream of thoughts, one at a time. It may be that God has perfect access to the entirety of His thoughts, simultaneously. God is not constrained by time; we are. One thing we know - God has thoughts. How they differ from ours is a mystery.
And may I turn to Genesis chapter one. God said “let there be light.” And there was light, and God saw that it was good. He didn’t “say” that it was good. It isnt simply implied that it is good. It says that God saw that it was good, and then there was evening and morning. The first day.
And it goes through the days of creation, until the 6th day, when God saw all that He had created, He saw that all of it was “very good”.
And then on the 7th day, He rested. This being that scriptural account, inspired by God, I feel comfortable with similar descriptions.
The fact that we know that decreed and carried out a moment of creation indicates a decision making process. Whether that means He made the decree in infinity past, or made it immediately preceding His actual execution of that decree, it still is what it is.
The Contingency Argument for God’s existence stipulates that there must be a least one non-contingent reality. Further, it argues that that necessary first mover must be a personal being, because the beginning of the universe was an event, at the beginning of time as we know it. It couldn’t have been natural forces, because no natural forces existed. It couldn’t have been an abstract object because abstract objects are causally effete.
It had to be an immensely powerful, necessarily existent, personal being, who caused the universe to come into existence out of nothing. It seems obvious that God caused that to happen at a moment of His choosing for His good pleasure.
It’s my wife’s birthday so I won’t be able to participate until tomorrow. God’s blessings!
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God created the universe for His own glory and purpose not out of need and to make wisdom, power, and grace known to humanity. Reflecting on His glory and humans are called to know, love, and understand in worshiping Him in awe.
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Amen brother - well spoken.
On second (more careful) reading, I’m pretty sure I did misunderstand your intent my brother. I was a bit rushed, as I was cooking for 20 at a state park. I apologize for my misunderstanding, and as always, I appreciate your answers!
Here is an ultimate “why”, at least in my mind.
Ultimately, it’s God’s intent to create a family of persons to share His love with for eternity. This is an expression of His unfathomable love toward those persons, for His own good pleasure.
I described it in another thread like this - “The highest imaginable state of affairs for any rational person would be to live forever in fully knowledgeable, fully intimate, and fully reciprocal loving relationship with God and other rational persons.”
God’s intent is eternal heaven. What that looks like in totality is in the mystery box, but we know it will be better than we can imagine.
But there is a barrier to achieving that state of affairs. A fully reciprocal loving relationship must be entered into freely by all participants, or it isn’t real love. Each must choose to be a part of that whole. I think a lot of people believe that we must undergo some sort of fundamental change to our freedom when we get to heaven. We can’t have free will there, or sooner or later we would make a bad choice, and we know there is no sin in heaven.
My question is, if we experience a fundamental change to our freedom when we get to heaven, why wouldn’t God simply make us that way now, and skip all the pain and suffering? It would be a lesser form of love, but if that’s our end state anyway, this world of suffering makes no sense at all. So I believe that we will still be substantially free to make moral choices in heaven. We will just always make the right choices, freely, every single time.
A few things WILL be different. No more fleshly bodies. No more ignorance. No more scarcity. No more misunderstandings. I’m sure I’m only scratching the surface.
The barrier to this state of affairs is entailed by God’s very immutable nature. Alvin Plantinga wrote the paper “God, Freedom, and Evil” where he discusses his “defense” of God with regard to the Problem of Evil (PoE).” He doesn’t regard that defense as a fulsome theodicy, but rather as a logical explanation. It touches on something sort of obliquely, that I see repeated by a number of other book-writing theologians/philosophers. My opinion is that this is the big thing. The bedrock reality big thing that explains why God allows any evil to exist at all.
The first identification of the Problem of Evil is attributed to Epicurus (I think) in way back. It basically says that if God is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving, that no evil should exist - ever. In the case that evil does exist, it’s existence necessarily entails that God does NOT exist. I (and many others) believe that this is one of, if not THE most common reason that people choose to not believe in God. They say that if God is the maximally great being, He would know of every instance of evil, He is powerful enough to eradicate it, and He would love us enough to not allow evil to hurt us. The fact that ubiquitous, horrendous evil does obviously exist is strong evidence that God does not exist. A good God wouldn’t have done things this way.
The “big thing” that I am referring to, is what I call “God’s Problem of Evil”. This is the barrier to the heavenly state of affairs, and it’s why God created this universe.
God’s Problem of Evil is precisely that “in every case that God creates a substantially morally free, intelligent, rational person, the possibility of evil comes into existence at the same moment of that creation.” This is an entailment based on the law of identity that was previously discussed. The round square thing. If a person is free to make moral choices, then that person is free to sin. God didn’t, and God doesn’t create evil. But the good thing that God does create brings into existence the possibility of evil.
God’s plan for eternal heaven must include a way for dealing with this entailment.
Can’t find the Arrow to respond to original question.
And would never know the exact answer unless He told me. However we can speculate with words we have read from the Bible and our interpretation of those words.
So let me reword the question- why do you think God created the world.
Well God is power…(I doubt thats all He is)
“ I AM THAT I AM”
In his name alone it shows He is self existing and self sustaining. I believe He is in His work. That the earth tells of His magnificence. And we too have the privilege to recognize we are the work of His hand and Honor Him. We are the mere creation and even if we don’t know it our creator deserves to be honored. In this I believe God wants to share His life with His creation. And Jesus the Christ was sent to be that way. God wants to be known to what He creates. Look at the Ark of the covenant that was carried everywhere God’s chosen people went. What a beautiful God to want to share His life with us.
The question is how bad do we want to give up this life to experiene His? SINCE IT IS WRITTEN, WHAT WOULD A MAN GIVE IN EXCHANGE FOR HIS SOUL.
@Johann
Thanx Brother. Your comprehensive attention to compile scriptural defense of an idea is unmatched. I appreciate you.
KP
As I greatly respect you and the impact of your contributions brother @KPuff
J.
Thanx. Tell your wife Happy Birthday for me. I sure hope you have a great celebration. “Cooking for 20”, Been there, cooked that! What a privilege. Please feel the freedom to “place us on the back burner”, as it were.
Sorry about the “mystery box” confusion. You were eventually correct that I had no intention of being contentious, or snarky. I was just saying, for me that there is much more I don’t know about God than I do. Writing on a forum platform is helping me to commit thoughts to words in a way others can understand what I’m trying to say; Here, I am the student. I hope I am allowed to re-take that exam.
I do think I get what you were trying to say with the “mystery box” idea (correct me if I’m wrong). We have a lazy tendency to just toss overwhelming ideas aside (into a box, as it were); chucked onto the pile of ideas that were found to be too difficult or uncomfortable to deal with. You might say, our weakness is demonstrated by our tendency to apathetic resignation. I genuinely appreciate that you have not done that here; that you have chosen to expose this question, and to labor over assembling clues that hopefully point to a slightly better understanding, if not the whole answer. I commend you for not relegating this question to the “mystery box”.
I pulled several loose threads on your tapestry, but you have adroitly tucked most of them back in, and demonstrated how they actually contribute to the weave.
You mentioned several ways in which we suspect God’s eternal heavenly “intention” may be realized. You said:
Yes, this is gold. I would add one more very important “no more”, no more deception. The active presence of a personal deceiver will be eliminated. I can not estimate how much of our sinfulness begins or culminates in deception, but I assume it is a large amount. Human sin began with deception, and I see the insidious effects of deception still very active on the human race today. Our Scriptures constantly warn us to “be on guard”, to “put on armor”, to be “circumspect”, etc. We are told of the deceiver’s schemes, and we are intentionally armored against them. The elimination of deception, to me, seems to be one of the most freeing aspects of heavenly eternity.
I have not read Alvin Plantinga, nor have I read of his insights into theories regarding the PoE, but I will now. Thanx for the attribution.
I too have thought about this apparent dilemma, that you bring out, that the good that God does brings into existence the potential of it’s contrasting evil. I have more to say on this thread, but I do not have the time to commit to it right now. Hopefully later.
Romans 8:22-23 (NKJV)
For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
Blessings, and enjoy the day.
KP