Oh, I “get it” loud and clear.
On the contrary, it seems you’ve misunderstood me, and you’re right, we’ve traveled this road several times before.
Especially this.
You have a blessed day.
J.
Here is my “push back”
Elder = Old-guy (there are not two definitions)
This is inaccurate. The Greek word πρεσβύτερος (presbuteros) can mean “older man,” but in the New Testament epistles, it primarily refers to a qualified office based on character, faithfulness, and ability to teach, not strictly age (~1 Timothy 3:1–7; ~Titus 1:5–9). Age may correlate with experience but is not the defining criterion.
πρεσβύτερος (presbuteros) elder: Elder (G4245G)
(Noun Accusative Plural Masculine )
: Elder
older; ancestral; (n.) in the Gospels and Acts, “elder,” usually as an official leader of the Jewish community, in the epistles, “older man” and “older woman,” who may or may not be official leaders of the church, depending on the context.
presbys, presbyteros, sympresbyteros (episkopos), presbyterion .
A. Meaning and Occurrence.
- presbyteros, comparative of presbys, means
a. “older,” or simply “old,” with no negative connotations but rather a sense of venerability. It then comes into use
b. for presidents, members of various guilds, committees etc., village officials, executive committees of priests, and senior groups of different types.
c. In the Jewish and Christian sphere it is often hard to distinguish between the designation of age and the title of office. Age is clearly the point in Gen_18:11-12 and Joh_8:9; Act_2:17. Elsewhere the presbyteroi are the bearers of a tradition (Mat_15:2), and a title is at issue when the reference is to members of governing bodies, as in the nation, the synagogue, or the church. - to presbyterion, which occurs in pre-Christian works only in Sus. 50 for the “dignity of elders,” occurs in the NT for
a. “the Sanhedrin,” and
b. “the council of elders” in the church (cf. Luk_22:66; 1Ti_4:14). Common in Ignatius, the term signifies for him the council of presbyters, which parallels that of the apostles (Philadelphians 5.1) and functions as the bishop’s council (8.1) . - The sympresbyteros is the fellow elder" (1Pe_5:5); it becomes a common collegial form used by bishops in addressing presbyters.
B. Elders in Israel and Judah. - Elders are presupposed in all strata of the OT. As the heads of large families or clans they are leaders of large units of the people. Yet they lose their original tribal relationship and appear in the OT as representatives of the whole nation along with and under figures like Moses and Joshua. At God’s command Moses assembles them to declare to them the approaching exodus and to go with them to Pharaoh (Exo_3:16; Exo_3:18). It is they who supervise the Passover and receive God’s revelation at Sinai (Exo_12:21; Exo_19:7). Some of them witness the miracle at Horeb, and 70 see God’s glory at the making of the covenant (Exo_17:5; Exo_24:1). The elders lead the attack on Ai and are specially summoned to the council at Shechem (Jos_8:10; Jos_24:1). A special group is appointed by God to share the burdens of Moses (Num_11:16-17; Num_11:24-25) and is validated by receiving a portion of Moses’ spirit. The rabbis later lay great stress on Exo_24:1-18 and Num_11:1-35. The latter passages form a model for the Sanhedrin and offer support for rabbinic ordination.
“Popular in modern churches to approve young men… widespread but ill-advised” Our point of “contention” which I find somewhat ridiculous.
Scripture provides clear examples of God calling and using young leaders: David was anointed as a youth (~1 Samuel 16:11–13), Josiah became king at eight (~2 Kings 22:1–2), and Timothy, though young, was entrusted with pastoral responsibilities (~1 Timothy 4:12; ~2 Timothy 3:14–15). Therefore, age alone does not disqualify someone from ministry.
“Recognizing the old-guys who were obviously yielded and walking with Jesus”
This is partially correct in emphasizing character and faithfulness, but your post overemphasizes age. The qualification for eldership is spiritual and moral maturity, not just chronological age (~Titus 1:6–9).
Analogies to “tall, strong, strappingly-handsome men like King Saul”
This is extra-biblical and unnecessary, and Scripture does not suggest physical attributes or social prominence as criteria for eldership. Leadership is evaluated on spiritual character and ability to shepherd the flock, not appearance or status (~1 Peter 5:2–3).
“Old-guys who will steward the flock”
The core biblical principle is correct, elders are to shepherd the flock and set an example (~1 Peter 5:1–4). However, Scripture emphasizes tested character and proven faithfulness, which can exist in younger men as well as older men.
“We have lost the heart-desire of Paul and exchanged it with a corporate model”
While modern structures may sometimes reflect corporate hierarchy, your post assumes a normative age-based standard that Scripture does not establish. Paul’s instructions focus on spiritual maturity, sound doctrine, and tested character, not the number of years someone has lived (~Titus 1:5–9; ~1 Timothy 3:1–7).
Titus 1:5–9 and 1 Timothy 3:1–7 emphasize that eldership is based on spiritual character, moral integrity, and ability to teach, not strictly chronological age. God can call and use both young and older men for leadership when He has prepared them. While experience and maturity are valuable, Scripture does not make age a disqualifying or primary factor for office. Physical appearance, social prominence, or the assumption that only older men are suitable are extra-biblical interpretations and should not be treated as normative.
And just to be clear, I stand by my post. This is exactly the kind of “semantics” I was trying to avoid.
J.
How old are you Johann?
Just asking.
64 years old and still learning from my Rabbi, Pater/father.
J.
Ah no kidding. I’m waaaaayyyyy older than you - 67. Well if that’s you in the picture, God is really not fair. You look half that age.
Okay, I know scripture warns against jumping into “not your argument” (like twisting the ears of a dog, you’re gonna get bit), but you might want to know that your response reads like pretty insulting.
Was it your intent to insult @kpuff like that? He’s one of us brother.
If it was some random troll, I’d be right with you. Trolls are death to a forum.
2 Tim 2 - “The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, skillful in teaching, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth”
You know that passage quite well. You know that it also warns against arguing about words etc, and points out how it can damage those who are listening.
I referred to Ecc 7:16 the other day: “Don’t be overly righteous, neither make yourself overly wise. Why should you destroy yourself?” The context was our need to not take ourselves TOO seriously. I want you to know that I wasn’t just throwing out worldly wisdom. To me that means that none of us are the oracle of God, none of us are always right, and treating every difference of perspective as if it’s an offense against God is just wrong. But you know that.
He is God’s servant, and to God will he answer. He doesn’t answer to you. So you could really damage your witness when you get insulting like that.
Just my perspective. We’re on the same team - same family - same God and Father - same Savior. We should be strengthening relationship rather than throwing up hostilities.
End of sermon.
Your brother
That was not my intention father.
I concur.
Did I not say I don’t want to go into semantics?
In my culture, Afrikaans culture, what I wrote was not an “insult” father.
My profile pic is a younger version of myself.
Do you see now how many apophaino (reveal, bring to light) misunderstandings and metadidomi (transmit, pass along) miscommunications can prokaleō (provoke, incite) strong language such as “insulting” or “hostility”?
End of my sermon.
Your brother in Christ Jesus.
J.
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@Johann
Sorry, I didn’t intend to encourage you into “semantics” that you were trying to avoid. My apologies.
You said:
How do you exegete this passage?
The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.
Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” (1 Peter 5:1-5)
Here The apostle is obvioulsy speaking of the overseer office holder who is an Elder, but then he compares that office holder to “younger people” (Gk.néos a young man). He tells the “neos” to submit themselves to the (“πρεσβύτερος” presbuteros). Is not Peter at least implying age for the office called “elder”?
I wholeheartedly concur with your statement:
No doubt. I just don’t see those young leaders being commended into the office of “elder”.Do you?
Just asking, not contending.
Finally,
I’m not sure how what I actually said became “our point of contention”, and I sure don’t see anything "rediculous about it. It was clever how you edited what I said, losing the original meaning by omission.
I actually said:
“I know it is popular in modern churches to approve young men into the responsibilities and office of Church Elder; widespread but ill-advised.”
I was speaking about the widespread practice of young men being recognized as “Elders”, not young men being approved to serve in other capacities. That would be rediculous, but that is not what I said. I hope you can see how this could be upsetting to me.
Yeah I went hunting with a guy - Jacco Du Plesis in Tanzania. He had been from Johannesburg. One of the things I got a kick out of was his trials and foibles as a tourist in the States.
He would start telling a story with “all I said was blah blah blah…!” But you always knew exactly where he stood, that’s for sure.
You have a tough context there brother. My prayers are with you.
Your brother
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Context of 1 Peter 5:1–5. And do read 1 Titus 5-9, would ya? Qualifications for Elders
Peter is addressing elders (πρεσβύτερος / presbuteros) in their role as shepherds and overseers of the church. He emphasizes character and conduct: shepherding willingly (οὐ ἀναγκάζοντες), eagerly (πρὸς προθυμίαν), not lording over (οὐχ ὡς ἐπιβαλόντες), and serving as examples (τύπος) to the flock.
The term “younger people” (νέοι / neos)
Peter then exhorts younger members to submit to the elders. The Greek word νέος literally means “young” or “new,” typically in reference to age or stage of maturity. This clearly distinguishes the group being exhorted from the elders.
Does this imply age for the elder office? What do you think?
I say, not necessarily. Peter is making a contrast between those who are less mature or newer in the faith (νεοι) and those who are serving in the oversight office, not creating a rigid age requirement. The elders he addresses are already in office, and the emphasis is on their experience, maturity, and godly example, qualities often associated with older individuals, but not strictly determined by chronological age.
New Testament examples…
Timothy is called a young man (νεος) yet is entrusted with pastoral responsibility (~1 Timothy 4:12; ~2 Timothy 3:14–15).
David was anointed as king as a youth (~1 Samuel 16:11–13), yet he assumed the office fully only after God’s timing.
Morphological nuance
πρεσβύτερος (presbuteros): nominative singular masculine, here functioning as a title for the office of overseer/elder. Its semantic range includes “older man,” but in the epistolary context, it emphasizes spiritual maturity and character, not literal age.
νέος (neos): nominative plural masculine, describing those who are younger or less mature, again often correlated with age but primarily emphasizing experience and submission.
I understand your concern here, and I think part of the tension arises because we are importing modern denominational frameworks and theological assumptions into a text that is not operating within those categories, which easily leads to talking past one another rather than letting the scriptural context itself govern the discussion.
The Bible emphasizes qualification by character, wisdom, and faithful service, not strict age.
It’s your preogative to disagree.
What’s next? Disagreements on Ha-Almah, Parthenos, Bethulah?
J.
Let’s just say it’s “wild” here, you know, like the Wild West, no bullets.
Thank God for Trump.
J.
Also @KPuff
Paul’s appointment of elders is not described through narrative lists of names and ages but through explicit apostolic instructions, participial commands, and retrospective summaries that together establish both the practice and the criteria, and the relevant references must be read cumulatively rather than in isolation.
The clearest direct statement is ~Titus 1:5, where Paul states in the aorist middle indicative apélipon se en Krētē (I left you in Crete) with the purpose clause hina ta leiponta epidiorthōsē kai katastēsēs presbyterous kata polin (so that you might set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city), with katastēsēs being an aorist active subjunctive expressing delegated apostolic authority to formally recognize elders, not to invent a new office or redefine its nature.
The qualifications for those elders are immediately supplied in ~Titus 1:6–9, where presbyteros in verse 5 is grammatically equated with episkopos in verse 7 by the conjunction gar (for), showing that Paul is defining function and character rather than age, man! emphasizing marital faithfulness, household management, doctrinal stability, and moral credibility, none of which are age markers but all of which presume tested maturity.
The same pattern appears in ~Acts 14:23, where Luke records that Paul and Barnabas cheirotonēsantes autois kat’ ekklēsian presbyterous (having appointed elders for them in every church), with cheirotoneō indicating formal recognition or designation, followed by prayer and fasting, again with no age specification but with spiritual discernment guiding the appointment.
In ~Acts 20:17, Paul summons the presbyterous of the church in Ephesus, and in ~Acts 20:28 he addresses these same men as episkopoi (overseers), whom the Holy Spirit has placed to shepherd the church of God, demonstrating that Paul understood elders as spiritually appointed shepherds whose legitimacy came from God’s calling recognized through apostolic ministry, not from chronological seniority.
Paul’s pastoral instructions in ~1 Timothy 3:1–7 describe the qualifications for the episkopos, while ~1 Timothy 5:17–22 refers explicitly to presbyteroi who rule well and labor in teaching, showing continuity with the same office and again grounding eligibility in character, reputation, and doctrinal fidelity rather than age thresholds.
In ~1 Timothy 4:12, Paul exhorts Timothy not to let anyone despise his youth (neotētos), which implicitly confirms that Timothy exercised authoritative leadership in Ephesus while still relatively young, even though Paul never explicitly calls Timothy an elder, demonstrating that functional authority and office recognition were not mechanically tied to age but to calling and proven faithfulness.
Finally, Paul’s farewell in ~2 Timothy 2:2 outlines the generational transmission of teaching authority to faithful men who will be able to teach others also, establishing succession based on reliability and competence, not age, which necessarily governed how elders would continue to be recognized after the apostolic era.
Taken together, these passages show that Paul unquestionably appointed elders through delegated authority and formal recognition, that he defined the office by spiritual maturity and doctrinal stability rather than by numerical age, and that Scripture never records Paul imposing an age requirement for eldership, even though age often coincided with the qualities required, making maturity assumed but never legislated.
In the Judaism of Jesus’ day the elders of Israel were still dominant. The most frequent use of the word “elder” in the New Testament refers to the Jewish elders who opposed Jesus during his lifetime. Within the gospels and Acts “elders” are most often viewed as forming a closely knit group with the “chief priests.” Again and again we read of “the chief priests and elders of the people” (Matthew 21:23; 26:3, 47; 27:1, etc.). The term elder was probably very broad and would include members of the scribes as well as the Pharisees and Sadducees (cf. “traditions of the elders” Matthew 15:2; Acts 22:6).
Therefore it is evident that the Judaism out of which the early church emerged was one in which elders played a distinctive and well-known leadership role. This familiar role in Jewish society was no doubt where the early church got the title “elder.” But just what the character and function of the early Christian elder was can only be determined by studying the New Testament texts. It would be wrong to assume that the Jewish concept was taken over with no modifications, because the church is not simply a carbon copy of Judaism or of Old Testament Israel.
It is worth noting in passing that the office of priest, so prominent in the Old Testament, is not taken over by the early church. Prophets and elders (cf. Ezekiel 7:26) have their counterparts in the church and these titles are used. But there is no official counterpart to the priest, for, as the New Testament teaches, the whole church is a “holy priesthood” (1 Peter 2:5), or a “royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9). We who are in Christ have all “been made priests to his God” (Revelation 1:6). Each individual has access to the holy of holies, God’s throne of grace, because of the once-for-all atoning death of Christ. No officer in the church has the function of mediating between the believer and God.
Our Bible is Jewish and we are to read it with a Jewish mindset, NOT West Achi!
J.
@Johann
I see your perspective.
Nicely done
KP
Can we now put these recurring misunderstandings and disagreements to rest, lay aside the disappointments, and move forward together in unity?
Johann.
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My desire precisely.
KP
2 Likes
12.38 AM here, signing off. I’m exhausted.
J.
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I’m in the priesthood is forever honored the numbers are holy numbers and if you call my number I am here
Not sure I understand your meaning. Care to elaborate?
Peter