Are believers immediately with our Lord Christ Jesus upon death?

General Faith
21

I would also suggest that your read all of my other replies to this Thread, for I give explanations that reveal that it is the Souls or persons themselves who fall asleep in death and not their bodies.

By the way in 2 Thessalonians 5:1-10 the words “the body” should actually be translated exactly like the words “this tabernacle” or in other words they should be translated as “this body”

First off, didn’t you notice that in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that he speaks of the tabernacle of the body not as sleeping in death but as being destroyed in death?

Therefore to be absent in death from this body will result and conclude for the believer to be present with the Lord, but not as unclothed or as a bodiless spirit but rather as clothed upon with our new incorruptible body at the resurrection.

Now notice this also from Paul, for he says,"not that we would be unclothed (without a body) but clothed upon (with our new bodies) in order that “death might be swallowed up of life”.

So I ask you, when does Paul tell us that death will be swallowed up of life in this passage of 2 Corinthians 5:1-10?

22

The topic under discussion is are believers immediately with our Lord Christ Jesus at death?

I say yes, you say no. That’s your reading of the text, not mine.

J.

23

Actually I didn’t say that they weren’t with the Lord but only that they are not with him as conscious bodiless spirits like you have been falsely led to believe.

They are in a state of soul sleep in the protective care of God in heaven by the Holy Spirit which is the deposit guaranteeing that they will be resurrected back into a new Body with conscious eternal life.

For just as both Jesus and Steven stated at their deaths, “into your hands I commit my spirit”, they are in the Hands of God and resting from all of their trials and troubles until the resurrection when they will have conscious life again but this time eternal life.

The Eternal life of the believer is God himself through his Holy Spirit and without the Spirit of God there can be no eternal life either and that goes also for unbelievers as well.

It isn’t my reading but what the Bible clearly reveals when it is viewed in its proper context and the one reading hasn’t already been previously brain washed by the many different tongues of false doctrine that Satan has sown within this world in order to distort the truth.

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Which church are you affiliated with?

Luke 23:43 — esē (future middle indicative of εἰμί, “you will be”)
Jesus promised the thief, “Today you will be with Me in paradise,” immediate presence in spirit.

Acts 7:59 — dexai (aorist middle imperative of δέχομαι, “receive”)
Stephen entrusted his spirit to Christ at the moment of death, conscious and active.

Philippians 1:23 — analusai (aorist infinitive, “to depart”) tied to einai syn Christō (present infinitive, “to be with Christ”)

Paul explicitly connects departing the body with being immediately with Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:6–8 — ekdēmountes (present active participle of ἐκδημέω, “away from the body”) and endēmēsai (aorist active infinitive of ἐνδημέω, “at home with the Lord”)

Being absent from the body is being present with the Lord; the soul is active and conscious.

Revelation 6:9–10 — ekraxan (aorist active indicative of κράζω, “they cried out”)

The souls of martyrs under the altar are fully aware, crying out to God long before the resurrection.

Hebrews 12:23 — teteleiōmenōn (perfect passive participle of τελειόω, “made perfect”)

The spirits of the righteous are perfected in God’s presence, fully conscious and complete prior to bodily resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 — pisteuomen (present active indicative of πιστεύω, “we believe”)

Paul emphasizes that God will bring those who have “fallen asleep” with Jesus, showing the dead in Christ are already with Him spiritually, awaiting bodily resurrection.

Brother, every Greek verb here demonstrates that “sleep” refers to the body, not the soul.

The soul is conscious, active, and immediately with Christ at death.

Soul sleep is a misreading of bodily sleep, not a biblical teaching.

J.

25

None at the moment but I have never sat under any other teachings than what the common mainstream churches believe and teach and the first was a southern Baptist after this it was the Assemblies of God.

I was saved and born again in 1973 and have been passionate about the word of God ever since but after I began to gain my own personal knowledge of the scriptures, I began seeing the many contradictions that the mainstream churches are teaching and God eventually led me out of it.

Therefore, what I believe now is the result of what I learned from God through the only mediator between God and man which is the man Christ Jesus by seeking and asking and waiting upon God through Christ for the truth like we all are suppose to be doing.

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You believe Jesus is God?

J.

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Your very error here is in those words “I say”, for what you or I say isn’t what determines what is truth and what isn’t but rather what the two witnesses that God left on this earth for us to know the truth say instead.

What are they?

They are the inspired finished written scriptures and the Holy Spirit through which they were inspired to be written in the first place and the same Holy Spirit that Jesus very clearly said he would send from the Father for that very purpose also.

28

Do you believe Messiah is Elohim?

J.

29

Which elohim are you referring to, for God himself called his own human representatives by this title of elohim also and you will see this in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9 look for the word Judges in some translations for the Hebrew is elohim?

30

Do you believe Yeshua Ha-Mashiach hayah/IS God?

J.

31

No but I believe what Jesus himself said and what he based our eternal life upon us knowing also in John 17:3.

This is eternal life, that they might know you (he was praying to the Father alone) The Only True God and Jesus Christ who you sent".

Notice, Jesus not only distinguished for us who The Only True God is but he also distinguished the Only True God from himself by saying he was sent by him and him is a personal pronoun that only refers to one single person also.

Paul actually says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 8:6 for although in verses 1-5 Paul tells us that there are many who are called gods in the world and also many who are called Lords or rulers or emperors who endorse those many gods yet for us who believe there is only one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ under him and who endorses only him also.

The Mistake that your churches make with this, is to falsely assume that the words “Lord and God” are interchangeable and therefore mean the same thing.

What proves this as false is the fact that Paul very clearly distinguishes the Father alone as that one God and Jesus Christ as that one Lord = kurios = ruler under God.

If Paul had said it this way instead "yet for us, there is one Lord and God or one Lord God, the Father and his Son Jesus Christ, then you would have a valid argument here but he doesn’t say this, does he?

No he doesn’t but instead he distinguishes the Father as Being the One God and Jesus as being the one Lord and therefore the words God and Lord are not interchangeable nor do they mean the same thing either.

Furthermore in Acts 2:36 Peter said these words “let all of Israel be assured of this, that God has made this same Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ”.

Yahweh isn’t made Yahweh by another and therefore the word Lord applied to Jesus doesn’t mean God but it means that he is the ruler over God’s people that God himself made to be the ruler over his people.

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Here is some more, in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is Jesus Christ also the Father and the Father also Jesus Christ?

If not, then neither can Jesus be the one God Paul is speaking of here nor can the Father be the one Lord Jesus Christ, for Paul distinguishes them by title and name.

How about the mistake that trins make in 1 John 5:20 in claiming that the words “this is the true God and eternal life” refer only to Jesus when the whole passages is referring to two referents “him who is true and his Son”?

That is not all either, for if you read the whole letter in context from the beginning of 1 John 1, John refers to the same two referents in the very first verses and he calls Jesus the eternal life that was with the Father (him who is true).

Therefore when we go to 1 John 5:20 he is still speaking of the same two referents of the Father as him who is true and his Son who John calls the eternal life.

Notice this also, why does John call Jesus the eternal life?

Because the same John also revealed this from John 5:26 and 6:57 below.

John 5:26 For just as the Father has Life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also.

John 6:57 For just as The Living Father (The Living God) has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he would eats of me will live because of me".

Yahweh God doesn’t need another to give him life, for he is life eternal by his very nature and which proves that Jesus is not God period.

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The mistake YOU are making, not the churches, not the ECF’s is…

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
Joh 1:4 In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]
Joh 1:5 And the Ohr shines in the choshech [TEHILLIM 18:28], and the choshech did not grasp it. [YESHAYAH 9:1]
OJB.

John 1:1
ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

ēn (imperfect active indicative of εἰμί, “was”)

theos ēn ho Logos (“the Word was God”)
The Word (Logos) is explicitly called God, not merely divine-like.

John 20:28
Θωμᾶς ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ· ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου

apekrithē (aorist passive indicative of ἀποκρίνομαι, “answered”)

Thomas addresses Jesus as ho Theos mou (“my God”), recognizing His divine identity.

Colossians 2:9
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς

katoikei (present active indicative of κατοικέω, “dwells”)

“All the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Him,” indicating Jesus embodies deity fully.

Hebrews 1:8
πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱὸν· ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever” (ho Theos, nominative, referring to the Son)

God the Father calls the Son ho Theos, fully divine.

Titus 2:13
προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνεια τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

prosdechomenoi (present middle participle of προσδέχομαι, “awaiting”)

Jesus is identified as tou megalou Theou kai Sōtēros hēmōn (“our great God and Savior”), uniting deity and savior in His person.

Philippians 2:6
ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ

hyparchōn (present active participle of ὑπάρχω, “existing”)

Jesus exists en morphē Theou (“in the form of God”), clearly divine in essence.

John 10:30
ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατήρ ἕν ἐσμεν

esmen (present active indicative of εἰμί, “we are”)

Jesus affirms unity with the Father, a statement of divine equality.

John 8:58
πρὸ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγώ εἰμι

egō eimi (present active of εἰμί, “I am”)
Jesus uses God’s covenantal name, echoing Exodus 3:14, claiming eternal existence and deity.

Revelation 1:8
ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός

eimi (present active of εἰμί, “I am”)
The risen Christ claims the divine title Alpha and Omega, fully identifying Himself with God.

These passages combine explicit divine titles, verb forms asserting eternal existence, and nouns showing essence. They collectively demonstrate that the New Testament affirms Jesus as fully God, not merely a divine agent.

This has nothing to do with the topic under discussion, but I rest my case. While you’re at it, show me soul sleep in Scripture, if it exists.

Praise God there are no “lone wolves” here, we have a community with accountability.

Denying Christ and His Deity is a serious mistake on your part.

J.

34

Sorry but I am not at all interested or intimidated and nor can I be tricked by your use of your own bias form of the original languages, for I am way passed that foolishness.

Now suppose you show me from the actual scriptures where it ever states that we must believe in God as a trinity of Three person or that we must believe in Jesus as God?

I just gave you two passages from the actual scriptures and one that even bases our having eternal life upon us knowing and believing, that the Father is The Only True God and Jesus the Christ whom he sent.

I am not interested in your use of the original languages here but rather in you showing me even one single passage where what you said in your last statement above is taught in the scriptures.

Have fun with that, for you will be flogging a dead horse while attempting to find one and I know this because I used to be a trinitarian myself and know just about every verse that trins used to attempt to prove their doctrines from as well.

So lets see that verse?

35

What do you know, at least we can agree on this, for Paul makes it very clear also in 2 Corinthians 5 but also in 1 Corinthians 15, that only when we are clothed upon with our New Spiritual bodies from heaven, is death swallowed up of life.

This idea that we have conscious life without a body is unscriptural rubbish and if you read Paul’s opening words in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 it is clear enough that he is speaking of persons sleeping in death and not the bodies of those persons.

This also means that neither Enoch or Elijah never died but went into heaven alive either.

For the words “translated so that he didn’t see death” concerning Enoch, don’t mean that he didn’t die but only that he didn’t perceive his dying but that God took him in total peace with no pain or suffering in his death, See also Isaiah 57:1-2.

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@Truthfor2025 your argument collapses when the text itself is allowed to speak. Scripture does not say Enoch merely “did not perceive dying” but that he was not found because God had taken him. Hebrews 11:5 is clear, pistei Henōch metetethē tou mē idein thanaton (“By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death”). The verb metetethē (aorist passive of μετατίθημι, “to transfer, translate”) shows God actively relocated him. The clause tou mē idein thanaton (purpose infinitive with the negative) is explicit, he did not see death.

It does not say he died peacefully, it says he did not experience death.

The same truth holds for Elijah in 2 Kings 2:11, anebē Elias en syri windō eis ton ouranon (“Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven”). The verb anebē (aorist active indicative of ἀναβαίνω, “he went up”) is a historical event. No death, no burial, but direct assumption into heaven.

Isaiah 57:1–2 speaks of the righteous being taken away from calamity, but it does not reinterpret Enoch’s or Elijah’s experience.

To conflate them is an exegetical misstep. The text in Hebrews says ouk heurisketo (“he was not found”), echoing Genesis 5:24, God took him (laqach, Qal imperfect of לקח “to take, seize”).

That verb is used for divine assumption, not ordinary death.

So the testimony of Scripture is this. Enoch and Elijah stand as exceptions, witnesses that God can and does bypass death. They are not examples of peaceful dying, but of God’s sovereign right to translate His servants without tasting death. To press Isaiah 57 over Hebrews 11 is to overturn the inspired commentary with an unrelated proverb.

Thanks.

J.

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LOL, this only means that he was not found as walking around alive any longer on the earth and even if it does mean that his body was not found, neither was Moses either but he still died didn’t he?

Also, his not experiencing death means that he didn’t suffer in death like all men do but that instead he went out without any consciousness that he was dying.

You quoted the scriptures in John 3 yourself dude, no one has ascended up into heaven but only him who came down from heaven, even the son of man"

therefore he didn’t go into heaven alive like what is being falsely said and which also would mean that those books of Enoch are also fabrications of false teachers of that time period.

Notice also, he said it was the son of man who came down from heaven and not God himself and Paul says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 below.

1 Corinthians 15: 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Notice what Paul reveals that Jesus came from heaven as, for it wasn’t as God but as a man, and therefore he is referring the new creation of a male human seed that was planted into the reproductive organs of Mary through the Holy Spirit to be born a real genuine human being and not a hybrid of both God and a human being.

**

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Now then, I am still waiting for that single verse in the NT where it was stated that unless one believes in God as a Trinity and in Jesus as the second person of that trinity God, he cannot be saved and therefore is in danger like you stated.

If you can’t supply one, it means that you are guilty of adulterating and corrupting the word of God with your own private interpretation and which simply means that what you are saying was never given in the actual scriptures by any inspired by God writer of scripture.

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The New Testament is unambiguous that saving faith requires confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in His divine identity. To deny who Christ is, is to deny the very heart of the gospel.

John 8:24 — Jesus Himself said, ean gar mē pisteusēte hoti egō eimi, apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn (“unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins”).

The verb pisteusēte (aorist subjunctive of πιστεύω, “believe”) is tied to egō eimi (“I am”), which echoes Exodus 3:14. Faith in His divine identity is required for salvation.

Romans 10:9 — Paul declares, ean homologēsēs … hoti Kyrios Iēsous (“if you confess that Jesus is Lord”), using Kyrios (κύριος), the divine title used in the Septuagint for YHWH.

Confession of Christ as Lord is salvific.

John 20:28 — Thomas confesses to Jesus directly, ho Kyrios mou kai ho Theos mou (“my Lord and my God”).

That confession of Jesus as God is accepted, not corrected, by Christ.

Titus 2:13 — Paul speaks of tou megalou Theou kai Sōtēros hēmōn Iēsou Christou (“our great God and Savior Jesus Christ”).

To deny this is to deny the apostolic proclamation of who Christ is.

1 John 5:12 — ho echōn ton Huion echei tēn zōēn; ho mē echōn ton Huion tou Theou tēn zōēn ouk echei (“He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life”).

Salvation is inseparable from believing in the true Son, who is fully God and fully man.

The issue is not whether the term “Trinity” appears in one verse, but whether Scripture requires faith in the true identity of Jesus.

The verbs of belief (pisteuō), confession (homologeō), and having (echō) all directly tie salvation to acknowledging Christ as God. To deny that Jesus is God is to reject the biblical gospel itself.

Thanks.

J.

1 Like
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Sorry but nowhere does his being called Lord mean that he is Yahweh God.

Furthermore, you are way out of context with John 8:24, for right before this in verse 23 Jesus said this “I am from above and I am not of this world” and then “unless you believe that I am” you shall die in your sins .

Very clearly therefore he is saying that unless you believe what he said in verse 23 that is is not of this world but was sent by God above, you will die in your sins and they knew what he meant also,

For he was revealing by this that he was the one they were looking for or thought that they were looking for, the Messiah sent from God that the prophets had spoke of.