Are believers immediately with our Lord Christ Jesus upon death?

General Faith
41

LOL, Paul very clearly revealed in Colossians 1:15 that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and Jesus revealed why also in John 14:6-10 and finished by saying “don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, the words I speak unto you I speak not from myself it is the Father who dwells within me, he is doing the works”

Therefore where else would Thomas have addressed the Father but within Jesus who wouldn’t have been standing in front of him alive from the dead unless God by the Holy Spirit was dwelling within him and just as Paul also revealed in Romans 8 below"

Romans 8: 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.`

Therefore all that Thomas was doing is confessing with his mouth that Jesus was Lord = kurios and that God who was dwelling within him by his Holy Spirit had raised him from the dead and just like Paul said that we must in order to be saved.

42

Now lets look at Titus 2:13 below and see the proper context in which it is stated also.

“Looking for the appearing of the glory of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ”

All that Paul is revealing here is that Jesus is the glory of our Great God and also our Savior and not that he is our Great God like you like to falsely believe about this.

A similar thing occurs also in 2 Peter 1 where Peter reveals Jesus as “the righteousness of our God and Savior” being it is only through him that God’s righteousness is revealed within us and we are also saved.

Sorry but neither Titus 2 nor 2 Peter where written to reveal Jesus as being God and therefore you are like usual for brain washed trinitarians taking this out of context.

Now for 1 John 5:12, of course the life is in the Son and therefore the one who doesn’t have the son does not have the Life and Jesus also revealed for us why this is the case in the verses below.

John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given to the Son to have life in himself also"

Now if you read the full context, this is why it is only through Christ that we can have a resurrection unto eternal life from the dead.

Here is another from John 6 also.

John 6:57 “For just as The Living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me (receive his life from the dead for their spiritual food) shall live because of me”.

Notice, not only does Jesus reveal that he himself lives because of the Father but also that just as he lives because of the father, in the same way “just as and so” shall we live because of him if we receive that life from God through him as our spiritual food.

43

“our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus” Jesus is here unambiguously given the title of God! The Caesars claimed similar titles (i.e., Ptolemy I). The terms “appearing” (which contextually relates to Christ’s Second Coming) and “great” are never used of YHWH. Also, there is no article with “savior.” The syntax of Koine Greek supports this as a title for Jesus because there is only one article with both nouns, thus linking them together (see NET Bible). Jesus is divine (cf. Joh_1:1; Joh_8:57-58; Joh_20:28; Rom_9:5; Php_2:6; 2Th_1:12; Heb_1:8; 2Pe_1:1; 2Pe_1:11; 1Jn_5:20). In the OT the Messiah (see Special Topic at 1Ti_1:1) was expected to be a divinely empowered person like the Judges. His deity surprised everyone (see SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM at 1Ti_2:5)!

Great God and our Saviour – Strict grammar would apply both God and Saviour to Jesus Christ.
God is Savior in Tit_1:3, Tit_2:10, Tit_3:4
Christ is Savior in Tit_1:4, Tit_3:6; cf. 2Pe_1:1.

the glorious appearing — There is but one Greek article to both “hope” and “appearing,” which marks their close connection (the hope being about to be realized only at the appearing of Christ). Translate, “The blessed hope and manifestation (compare Note, see on Tit_2:11) of the glory.” The Greek for “manifestation” is translated “brightness” in 2Th_2:8. As His “coming” (Greek, “parousia”) expresses the fact; so “brightness, appearing,” or “manifestation” (epiphaneia) expresses His personal visibility when He shall come.
the great God and our Saviour Jesus — There is but one Greek article to “God” and “Savior,” which shows that both are predicated of one and the same Being. “Of Him who is at once the great God and our Savior.” Also (2) “appearing” (epiphaneia) is never by Paul predicated of God the Father (Jhn_1:18; 1Ti_6:16), or even of “His glory” (as Alford explains it): it is invariably applied to Christ’s coming, to which (at His first advent, compare 2Ti_1:10) the kindred verb “appeared” (epephanee), Tit_2:11, refers (1Ti_6:14; 2Ti_4:1, 2Ti_4:8). Also (3) in the context (Tit_2:14) there is no reference to the Father, but to Christ alone; and here there is no occasion for reference to the Father in the exigencies of the context. Also (4) the expression “great God,” as applied to Christ, is in accordance with the context, which refers to the glory of His appearing; just as “the true God” is predicated of Christ, 1Jn_5:20. The phrase occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, but often in the Old Testament. Deu_7:21; Deu_10:17, predicated of Jehovah, who, as their manifested Lord, led the Israelites through the wilderness, doubtless the Second Person in the Trinity. Believers now look for the manifestation of His glory, inasmuch as they shall share in it. Even the Socinian explanation, making “the great God” to be the Father, “our Savior,” the Son, places God and Christ on an equal relation to “the glory” of the future appearing: a fact incompatible with the notion that Christ is not divine; indeed it would be blasphemy so to couple any mere created being with God.

Thanks.

J.

44

Sorry but no, for the title instead is “the glory of our great God and Savior” like the full sentence reveals about it and not “our great God and savior” cherry picked and chopped out of it like what you do with it in your false interpretation of it.

Furthermore true believers have one Divine God and Savior and also one human savior Jesus Christ and just as they have one Divine King Yahweh and one human King under Yahweh Jesus Christ and the scripture are quite clear on this also.

For just as Paul very clearly reveals also in 1 Corinthians 11:3 “the head of the woman is the man and the head of the man is Christ and the head of Christ is God” this is also proven these words by Paul in his letters, “blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

For Yahweh God has no other who is head above him as his God but Jesus most certainly does and that is because he isn’t Yahweh God himself and period.

LOL and once again, Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God and the first born of that image of the creation" also and which means that through him shall come many other human brethren who will follow in that same image as per Paul in Romans 8:29.

Let me once again make this clear to you, your bias and twisted knowledge of the original languages amounts to nothing more that a bunch of worthless rubbish that you wasted your money to purchase.

Therefore just so you know, it doesn’t impress me one bit and I can also tell you with total confidence that it doesn’t impress God either.

I guess you don’t pay any better attention to what I said than you do with what the Bible says either, for I never said that Titus 2:13 is speak of two persons and therefore you can’t play the Grandville Sharps rule card with me on this like you trins will do with many others.

So I would suggest you go back and read what I said once again, for this whole sentence, “the appearing of the glory of our great God and savior” is being applied as a title of Jesus Christ alone.

For God only appears within and through the Son period and therefore the Son becomes his glory just like the woman is the glory of the man and the man is also the image and glory of God likewise.

Not just “our Great God and Savior” like you are chopping out of it.

Do you need for me to take you over again to 1 Corinthians 11:3 where Paul even calls man the image and glory of God also?

Therefore if man who is being conformed to the image of Christ as per Paul in Romans 8:29 is called the image and glory of God as Paul clearly reveals, then Jesus has to be the first born of that image and glory and this is all that Paul is revealing also in Titus 2:13.

The manifestation of the Father’s glory is in the Son who as Paul very clearly said is the image of the invisible God and this is all that Paul is speaking of hear and not that Jesus himself is our great God like you falsely believe about it.

Notice also, that Paul in Colossians 1:15 says that it is God who is invisible and not just the Father and therefore if Jesus is God, then he would also be invisible himself and which would mean that he couldn’t be the image of the invisible God either.

This is just how absolutely foolish and ignorant this false doctrine that you believe in is.

From what I can see from you and like it is also with many others I have spoken to on other forums like this one also, the best thing that could happen to you is that you would lose your mind.

That way you might have a chance if God willing, to receive the Mind of the Spirit of God that was in Christ Jesus and without which no matter how much academic knowledge you gain, you will never understand the truth.

1 Corinthians 2: 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we (who are taught by the Spirit) have the mind of Christ.

Your problem is that you are full of yourself and you are also worshiping at the shrine of your academic knowledge and as long as you remain so, you will never understand the truth of the scripture but you will only continue to be deceived into thinking that you do when you are not.

45

Shalom, achi/achoti, at achoti, ken?

You are a sister, right?

J.

46

Tit 2:12 It has trained us to reject and renounce all ungodliness (irreligion) and worldly (passionate) desires, to live discreet (temperate, self-controlled), upright, devout (spiritually whole) lives in this present world,
Tit 2:13 Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),
Tit 2:14 Who gave Himself on our behalf that He might redeem us (purchase our freedom) from all iniquity and purify for Himself a people [to be peculiarly His own, people who are] eager and enthusiastic about [living a life that is good and filled with] beneficial deeds. [Deu_14:2; Psa_130:8; Ezk_37:23]

Not true

Of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ (tou megalou theou kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou). This is the necessary meaning of the one article with theou and sōtēros just as in 2Pe_1:1, 2Pe_1:11. See Robertson, Grammar, p. 786. Westcott and Hort read Christou Iēsou.

[quote=“Truthfor2025, post:42, topic:8868”]
Sorry but neither Titus 2 nor 2 Peter where written to reveal Jesus as being God and therefore you are like usual for brain washed trinitarians taking this out of context.
[/quote]

Correct, I am a Trinitarian, definitely not “brainwashed” as you suggest.

Have a great life.

J.

47

What are you ever going to do when you stand before God and he reveals to you that because you went about trying to understand the truth through your academic study and your own carnal mind with it, you actually kept yourself from knowing the truth because you followed your own mind rather than the mind of the Spirit that was in Christ Jesus?

For what you end up with in your false way of trying to know the truth is a contradiction of both Jesus in John 17:3 and also Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:6 also.

You need to get this straight in your head, for in 1 Corinthians 8:6 Paul is clearly revealing the same exact thing as Jesus did in John 17:3.

Therefore you have to be in error with your idea of Titus 2:13 and you need to remember that Titus was a disciple of Jesus and not the other way around and Jesus bases our having eternal life on our knowing the Father as The Only True God and himself as the Christ who he sent also.

Do you want more?

How about your error in believing that Paul in Philippians 2:6 is actually claiming that Jesus is God by saying that he was in the form of God?

For what proves that Paul was never saying this is what he went on to say in verses 9-11 of the same chapter and context, that it was because of Jesus’ obedience unto death that God rewarded him with a name above every other.

Are you so blind and ignorant that you cannot see the error here, for if Paul was claiming that Jesus being in the form of God really meant that he was himself God, then he would have already and always had a name above every other as being Yahweh God to begin with.

When I was a trin I would read right over these facts in the texts and not even see the problems with them that are clearly there and that is because Satan was blinding my eyes just like he is blinding yours also.

For unless Jesus ceased to be God when he emptied (kenosis) himself and which would be impossible if he were truly God, then what Paul said in verses 9-11 doesn’t fit with your interpretation of verses 6-8 at all and all of the academic knowledge in the world isn’t going to remedy that either.

Beside this, in verse 9-11 Paul is using Cyrus as a type of Jesus in this sense that just as God making the people bow to Cyrus and serve him, they were by this also made to bow down to God and serve him because he sent Cyrus for this purpose and even thou many didn’t want to either.

This is exactly what Paul is revealing about Jesus in Philippians 2:5-11, that all whether they want to or not are eventually going to bow down to both Jesus and God because God made Jesus the Lord over them in his place and just as Peter said in Acts 2:36 also.

I am talking about The Only True God = The Father and the real Jesus Christ who he sent also and not the one your cult has fabricated by taking a verse here and there out of its proper context to produce it.

I will tell you this also, for I believe that your trinitarian cult has just recently set into motion by their own choice what will result in their own judgment from Almighty God and they did this at the poles when they voted for Donald Trump.

For I believe God is angry about this and I believe that he is going to use their own choice to bring in their own punishment and just as you can read also in Isaiah 65 and 66.

For what they did by voting for him, is the most vile of symptoms revealing their total apostasy from the truth, for they should have known better after listening to his words and the way he presented himself.

Read what God says about the arrogance of the King of Babylon in Isaiah 14 and the King of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28, for he spoke these prophecies concerning these two men as if they were Satan himself and all because of their vile arrogance and Trump has made a science out of his arrogance.

So while your cult in their total ignorance believes that Trump is a type of Cyrus, I can assure you that he isn’t, for God resists the proud and arrogant and gives grace unto the humble and therefore even though Cyrus was not a believer, he had to be a humble man that God could move towards righteousness other wise he wouldn’t have used him in the capacity that he did nor would he have called him his anointed = messiah in verse 1 of Isaiah 45.

By the way, I am sure you would at least partly agree that John’s first letter was to reveal the characteristics of the spirit of antichrist working through men and women?

For if you read verses 8-10 of the first chapter John reveals that if someone says they have fellowship with God and yet they still walk in the darkness of unconfessed sin and the denial of sin in their lives, they are a liar and therefore there is no truth within them.

I am telling you this because I have seen 3 or 4 interviews of Donald Trump on public TV where he claimed to have a good relationship with God but when asked if he ever asks God to forgive him for anything he has done, he says he never does anything wrong to need to be forgiven.

This is most assuredly a characteristic of the spirit of antichrist working in a human being for right after this in the second chapter of that first letter John brings into focus the spirit of the antichrist who at that time was getting out of the church because they were still in the truth.

You best take what I am saying to heart because you are also going to be effected by this and probably sooner than you think also.

48

@KPuff would you like to give a helping hand here? If not, I’ll understand.

I am literally shocked at what you are saying here Joseph. Open a new thread, I’m more than willing to debate you.

J.

49

Of course you are, and that is because as a child your mommy and daddy raised you to believe in the same apostate rubbish that they also believe in and in this sense I guess that I had somewhat of an advantage over you.

For although my father and grandparents who raised me were Catholic, they weren’t rigid Catholics, though they did send me to catechism for a short while.

Other than this, I was not raised up with your nonsense that you believe begin drilled into my mind continuously like you probably had it drilled into your head.

However, it was still a battle for me and I didn’t want to believe that I was seeing the contradictions either and fought with God over it for many years.

I even taught the singles in my church and was asked to do this by the pastor for three different periods of time and did it for a while but then asked to be relieved of it all three times because I couldn’t shake the contradictions I was seeing with your doctrines in the word.

I was a bit like Paul in this way, for Paul was rigid in his belief just like I was but the real reason why he was this rigid, is because he was fighting against the conviction on his heart from the Holy Spirit.

For I was so rigid with my belief in the trinity, that if any one would come into the singles group who did not believe in Jesus as God or in God as a Trinity, I would immediately report them to the pastor and warn the the other singles not to have anything to do with them also.

I actually did this two times also, so I am not just talking here but I actually did this, but I was wrong and so are you and unfortunately for you, you are swiftly running out of time to get your heart straight with the truth.

By the way, there isn’t going to be any pre trib rapture of the church like the majority of your foolish cult is teaching either and this is one of the easiest of all of the other of your false doctrines to prove also.

I will give you this one proof to start with, for in the parable of the tares and wheat who is removed, during the tribulation, the tares or the wheat?

Notice this also, for it will be the tribulation that God uses to exposes the tares from the wheat and the means by which they will be removed from the wheat as well.

Another of your foolish false doctrines is what you believe about the 1000 years in the book of Revelations, for when Jesus returns, it will be over completely and there will be no more mortal existence nor second chances for either Jews or Gentiles who refused to believe in God through Christ up until that point either.

Just answer this, how many people repented and believed from the time that Noah was warned of the flood and began to build the ark by God’s instructions?

None where saved at all and that is the very reason why God destroyed that world and it will be the same reason why he destroys this one also, for it will be because men and women stopped listening to the conviction in their hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Notice this also, for in the book of Revelation it is stated that even with all of the plagues that God will bring upon the wicked and the apostates, they still will not repent and turn to God and Jesus said it would be just as it was in the days of Noah also.

So who is going to go into your foolish false idea of an extra to this age 1000 year second chance Kingdom for the Jews or Gentiles who wouldn’t believe before Christ came?

Your cult is so full of foolish unscriptural false doctrines that it is truly amazing to me that it took me so long to see how corrupt it truly is, but Satan is crafty and just like the Bible said he is also.

50

Enough of this @Truthfor2025, you sound like an accuser of the brethren, and Revelation 12:10 makes plain who that role belongs to. If you are so eager for strife, then open up a new thread and I will gladly contend with you, for Jude 1:3 calls us to earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

You are WAY off topic.

J.

51

Nope but rather I am an exposer of wicked and stubborn apostate teachers and their many false doctrines, for they are by no means my brothers when they teach what was never truly taught by the apostles or the inspired NT writers.

Just search through the book of Acts and show me where any of the apostles ever taught that Jesus was God and that God was a trinity or got persecuted for it or arrested or martyred for it either?

The book of Acts is the beginning history of the operation of the Holy Spirit through the church dude and nowhere in the book of Acts was there ever any mention of Jesus as being God or preaching to others that he was either.

You are very soon now going to face up with God Almighty and have to answer for these facts in the scriptures, so what are you going to do when you stand before him and have no valid answer for this?

You better get real serious about that and real quick also Johann.

52

Yes, the book of Acts contains strong hints and direct affirmations that Jesus is God, though Luke presents it in a way that ties Jesus’ divine identity to His exaltation, His authority, and His sharing in the prerogatives of Yahweh. Let me walk through the main texts with you.

In Acts 2:21 Peter quotes Joel 2:32, “And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord (κύριος) shall be saved.” In Joel the “Lord” is YHWH, yet in the very next verses Peter applies this directly to Jesus, declaring in Acts 2:36 that “God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” The connection is not that Jesus became divine at exaltation, but that His resurrection and exaltation revealed publicly that the divine name and saving power of YHWH are bound up in Him. Thus, the one who calls on the name of YHWH is in fact calling on Jesus.

In Acts 3:14–15 Peter calls Jesus “the Holy and Righteous One” and “the Author of life” whom the people killed. These are titles associated with God in the Old Testament. The paradox is staggering: the Author of life was killed, yet raised. This points to Jesus possessing divine prerogatives beyond a mere prophet.

In Acts 4:12 Peter boldly declares, “there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” In Jewish monotheism salvation belonged to YHWH alone (Isaiah 43:11, “besides Me there is no savior”), yet here Peter places Jesus in that exclusive position.

In Acts 7:59–60 Stephen prays, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,” and, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” Prayer to Jesus in the very moment of death mirrors the words of Psalm 31:5 where David commits his spirit to YHWH. This shows Stephen addressing Jesus with the same divine trust one would give only to God.

In Acts 10:36 Peter says, “He is Lord of all.” The phrase “Lord of all” echoes YHWH’s universal sovereignty in the Old Testament. The fact that Peter places Jesus as the universal Lord whom God sent to bring peace shows an identification of Jesus with God’s rule.

In Acts 20:28 Paul tells the Ephesian elders to “shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.” Some manuscripts read “church of the Lord,” but the stronger reading is “church of God,” making the phrase even more startling. God purchased the church with His own blood, a direct statement of Jesus’ deity and His sacrificial death.

So Acts does not present abstract philosophical statements about Christ’s divine nature. Instead, Luke shows Jesus functioning in the role of God: receiving prayer, being the object of saving faith, bearing the divine name, exercising the prerogatives of salvation, and even being described as the one whose blood is God’s blood. All of this is centered in the crucifixion and resurrection, where the one who was rejected is vindicated and enthroned as the divine Lord.

OT Jehovah/YHWH NT Jesus Christ
“My Lord” Ps 35:23 (LXX: κύριός μου) Ps 110:1 “My Lord” John 20:13, 28, Luke 1:43, Phil 3:8, Matt 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42, Acts 2:34
Glory not shared, Isa 42:8, 48:11 Glory with the Father, John 17:5, 24
“Rock” Isa 44:8; Deut 32:3,4,15; Ps 92:15 “that Rock was Christ” 1 Cor 10:4; Matt 16:18
Bridegroom, Isa 49, 54, Jer 2, Hosea Jesus is the Bridegroom of the church, Mark 2:19, Matt 9:15, Luke 5:34, 35
Worship only YHWH, Ex 20:3, 34:14; Deut 8:19; 2 Kings 17:35-38 Jesus worshiped, Matt 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, 17; Luke 4:8; 24:52; John 9:38; Rom 10:9, Heb 1:5, 6, Phil 2:10; Rev 5:6-12.
Searches hearts and minds, Jer 11:20, 17:10, 1 Sam 16:7 Searches hearts and minds, Rev 2:23
John 17:3 - source of eternal life 1 John 5:11, 12, John 11;25, 14:6, 6":35-51 - Jesus is the source of eternal life
Ps 23:1 - “The LORD is my Shepherd”. See also Isa 40:11, Eze 34:11 John 10:11-16 - “I am the Good Shepherd”. See also Heb 13:20, 1 peter 2:25, 5:4, Rev 7:17
Ps 27:1 - “The LORD is my Light”. See also Micah 7:8 John 8:12 - “I am the light of the world”. See also John 1:9, 9:5, 1 John 1:5-7.
Isa 44:24, 45:18 - Creator alone John 1:3, 10, Col 1:16, 17, Heb 1:2 - Jesus created all things
Isa 43:3, 11, 45:17, 21 - Savior of all, alone. Matt 1:21; Acts 4:12; 2 Tim 1:10; Tit 1:4, 2:13, 3:6; 2 Pet 1:1, 11 - Jesus is the only Savior.
Isa 41:4, 44:6, 48:12 - “First and Last” Rev 1:17, 18, 2:8, 22:13 - “First and Last”
Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3, 26 “LORD of Lords” Rev 17:14, 19:16 “Lord of lords”
Deut 10:17, Josh 3:11, 13, Ps 97:5, Zech 4:14, 6:5, Mic 4:13, - “LORD of All” Acts 10:36, Rom 10:12, Col 1:15 - “Lord of All”
Zech 4:10 (& Zech 3:9) - seven eyes of the LORD Rev 5:6 (Lamb) “seven eyes”
Many OT passages about YTHWH are quoted in the NT applying to Jesus. Here is a sample:

Old Testament, about YHWH New Testament about Jesus
Deut 32:43 (LXX) Heb 1:6
Ps 45:6, 7 Heb 1:8, 9
Ps 102:25 - 27. Heb 1:10 - 12.
Isa 45:23 Phil 2:10, 11, Rom 14:11
Isa 40:3 Matt 3:3 (cf v11)
Joel 2:32 Rom 10:13
Ps 31:5 (Eccl 12:7) Acts 7:59
Isa 52:6 John 4:26
We even have numerous prayers being offers directly to Jesus such as: John 4:10, 14:13, 14, Acts 1:24, Acts 7:59, 60, 9:5, 10-14, 1 Cor 1:1, 2, 16:22, 2 Cor 12:8, 9, 1 Tim 1:12, Rev 5:8-13, 22:20, 1 Thess 3:11-14, 2 Thess 2:16, 17.

There are also instances where the OT gives the title “I AM” to YHWH such as Ex 3:13-15; Deut 32:39, Isa 41:4, 43:10, 13, 25, 45:19, 46:4, 48:12, 51:12, 52:6 (LXX). In the NT, Jesus is the only one to use this title as His personal identifier: Mark 6:50, Mark 13:6, 14:27, 62, Luke 21:8, 22:70, John 4:26, 6:20, 8:24, 28, 58, 13:9, 18:5-8.

You are on thin ice.

J.

53

Absolute nonsense, and God is the God of light and truth, so he doesn’t hint and use clues with his inspired truths in the scriptures like you are claiming here.

However, you are going to find ways to get around this truth because you are stubborn and don’t want to believe the truth, for other wise you would be convicted and cry out to God in repentance.

Furthermore, you must not know the difference between calling on the name of Yahweh and confessing Jesus as kurios like what you want to do with Paul’s words in Romans 10:9-10, for they don’t mean the same thing.

Confessing and calling upon, are not the same exact thing at all

All that Paul is doing in Romans 10:9-14 is to reveal that it is only through our coming to Jesus and confessing him as kurios, that we call on the name of Yahweh to be saved, for it is only through Jesus that we can come to Yahweh or call upon him.

Therefore it is about Jesus as being the only mediator between God and man as a man and just as Paul also revealed as well and not about him being Yahweh God himself like you falsely believe and teach.

Now back to Acts 2:36, Yahweh God doesn’t have another who makes him Yahweh God and therefore the word kurios applied to Jesus in Acts 2:36 cannot be translated as Yahweh but rather as kurios.

Furthermore the passage of Acts 2:36 says that God made “poeo” Jesus to be both Lord and Christ and not that he publicly proclaimed that he already was and like you are twisting this passage to be saying.

Therefore what was proclaimed was that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ and not that Jesus already was Lord and Christ like you in your foolish ignorance are twisting this passage to be saying .

Once again, it is the Devil who beats around the bush with his words in clues just like he does in your carnal mind with the trinity doctrine that God never inspired any inspired writer of the NT to openly reveal.

Furthermore, God also calls his own angels as Holy ones as well, so being called “the holy one and righteous one is hardly the same thing as calling Jesus Almighty God.

Furthermore, I can also show you plenty of passages where men of God were called righteous and Peters point here was to reveal that they murdered a righteous and holy one of God while they wanted a murderer and thief set free in his place, that was his point in this.

So it wasn’t to reveal Jesus as being God like you foolishly and ignorantly believe about it and the context reveals this also.

He is called the prince of life because it is only through him in his death and resurrection that we can also be given eternal life and be resurrected from the dead as well.

Again, John 5:26 very clearly reveals that Jesus was given the life that he had to give to us from God and not that it came from his own self as being God himself and in John 6:57 he even said that he himself lives because of the Father.

Once again, God is not the God of confusion and therefore he doesn’t beat around the bush with clues or hints about the truth like you falsely believe about this but he comes right out in the open and reveals the truth instead with solid explicit teachings on it.

Just like he did through Paul on the fact that one is not saved by works of the law but by the grace of God through faith and like he did with the resurrection of the dead and which were both subjects that the Jews were ignorant of.

So if the Jews were also ignorant of God being a three person entity and of Jesus being one of those persons, why didn’t God make sure that their belief about this was also corrected in the NT like those other subjects were?

You have no answers for this because you are wrong in your doctrine about who God and Jesus truly are and again, all you are doing by all of this human reasoning in your posts about is revealing that you reject the words of Jesus about this in John 17:3 and from Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Sorry but there is no way out of this for you, for Jesus clearly revealed that the Father is The Only True God and Jesus is the Christ who he sent and Paul revealed the same thing in 1 Corinthians 8:6 and it couldn’t have been made any plainer either.

This is how we can be certain that the trinity doctrine is not from God but rather from the Devil, for if it was from God, then he would have given his inspired writers actual explicit teachings about it and which he never did at all period.

Except for in prophetic writings such as Revelation because he hides these truths in cryptic form to all but those who belong to him and diligently seek him for it and in the parables that he spoke to Israel because it wasn’t given them to know the truths of the Kingdom of God because of their reprobation into apostasy.

Now concerning Acts 4:12, how foolish, for Peter even tells you that there was no other name under heaven and which means under that of God himself and given among men by God and this goes right back to Philippians 2:9-11 also.

God gave Jesus this name and which means he never had a name above every other before this and therefore it also means he isn’t Yahweh God either.

So you are going to have to do much better than that and you can’t because there is no evidence in the actual history of the book of Acts that reveals what you believe period but instead you are reading into it what you want it to reveal when it doesn’t at all period.

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Furthermore…

Old Testament witness

Isaiah 9:6 – “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given… and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (El Gibbor), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Here the promised Davidic child is explicitly named El Gibbor (Mighty God). The title is used again in Isaiah 10:21 of YHWH Himself, showing that Isaiah foresaw a child who is divine.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 – “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign… and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord (YHWH) our Righteousness.” The Branch from David is called YHWH Tsidqenu, showing messianic deity.

Micah 5:2 – The ruler from Bethlehem “whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.” The eternal preexistence of this ruler identifies Him with God’s own timeless being.

Zechariah 12:10 – YHWH speaks, “They shall look upon me whom they have pierced,” later quoted in John 19:37 about Christ’s crucifixion. The speaker is YHWH yet pierced, pointing forward to Messiah’s divine identity.

Psalm 45:6-7 – “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever… therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee.” Addressed to the Davidic king, but the king himself is called Elohim. Hebrews 1:8 applies this directly to Christ.

Psalm 110:1 – “The Lord (YHWH) said unto my Lord (Adonai), Sit at my right hand.” David calls his descendant “my Lord,” and Jesus in Matthew 22:44 applies it to Himself, showing His exalted status beyond mere humanity.

New Testament fulfillment

John 1:1,14 – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh.” The eternal Logos who is God took flesh as the Messiah Jesus.

John 20:28 – Thomas confesses to the risen Christ, “My Lord and my God.” Jesus does not rebuke him but accepts this worship.

Romans 9:5 – Of Israel comes the Messiah “who is God over all, blessed forever.” Paul directly calls Christ theos.

Titus 2:13 – “Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

Hebrews 1:8 – Quoting Psalm 45:6, “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.”

2 Peter 1:1 – “Through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

Revelation 1:17-18 – Jesus says, “I am the first and the last,” an explicit title of YHWH in Isaiah (44:6), yet He also says He died and lives forever, combining deity and crucifixion.

The line of testimony
The Old Testament sows the seed that the Messiah will be both David’s son and David’s Lord, both man and God. The New Testament reaps this harvest, showing Jesus as the incarnate Word, God manifest in flesh (1 Timothy 3:16), crucified yet alive, the Lamb upon the throne worshiped as God (Revelation 5:13-14).

The testimony of Scripture since it would seem you “hate” believers in Christ Jesus who hold the Triune Godhead view, as recorded IN Scripture.

J.

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Being you ran away and don’t want to address John 17:3 nor 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Let’s have another look at Zechariah 12:10 and let me expose yet another false doctrine that you hold about this.

For it is quite apparent that in the way this is translated, that there are two persons beings spoken of here.

For the one speaking says, "they will look upon me (one person) who they have pierced and then the same person goes on to say “and they will mourn for him (another person) as one mourns for his only son”.

For the speaker says “they will mourn for him (another person) as one does for his only Son” and therefore the one they are mourning for here has to be the Son, so who is the speaker

Now then please do tell, who is the speaker?

You see therefore that either this is translated incorrectly or both the Father and the Son were pierced but both in different ways, the Father speaking was pierced in his heart emotionally by the literal physical piercing of his Son Jesus Christ because of the sin and disobedience of his people.

Before you reject this, did you not know that in Luke’s gospel, he reveals that a prophecy was given also to Mary that revealed that she would also be pierced through with a sword over the death of her Son and just as Zechariah says that the Father would be also?

What this reveals is that you don’t know how to get the truth from the scripture and this is because you are attempting to get at the truth through the flesh, with your foolish carnal hermeneutics and exegesis and not by the Spirit like the same Bible you read reveals that you must in order to get the truth.

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Now let’s also have a look at Revelation 1:17-18.

In what context does Jesus use the term “first and last” here, what does he say he is the first and last of?

What does God use this term for in Isaiah 44:6?

Notice, God uses this to reveal that as God, he is the only God, none before him = the first and none coming after him = the last and therefore he alone is God and no one else and he says the same thing in the chapter right before this using slightly different words

Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

Now let’s look again at how Jesus is using this term first and last in Revelation 1:17-18

**Revelation 1:17 **When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. **18 **I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

So then let’s have it, as what is Jesus saying he is the first and last of?

What does his words “I am he who was alive and became dead and behold I am alive forever more and have the Keys of death and hell”, what does this reveal about who he is Johann?

It reveals he is the promised Messiah that the prophets foretold, that is what it reveals and it doesn’t reveal that he is God like God’s use of the term first and last did in Isaiah 44:6.

Some of my posts are not being posted to you I see, and I hope for the sake of anyone who might wanting to remove the truth that I am revealing that they are not doing this, for if they are it only proves that they are not walking in the light and truth of God’s word but belong to the darkness instead. .

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First Jesus was created and the reason why you had to keep asking this is because my replies to you on that weren’t being posted and most likely because those who are in the darkness like to silence the truth so that others can’t even hear it whereas those who are in the truth welcome the opportunity to expose darkness instead of trying to silence it. .

Concerning John 1:1, what you are ignorant of, is the fact that John is not speaking in totally literal terms with this to begin with, for he is using the figurative personification of Logos of the Philosophers of his day to explain God’s plan and foreknowledge for his Logos “Logic in his words” to be personified within a human Son.,

By the way, trins like yourself will often argue that it wasn’t necessary here for John to use the definite article for “the Logos was God” because there are many other verses in the Bible where it wasn’t used either but we know it is referring to The God by the context.

The problem with this is that in all of those other passages, there is only one who is being called by the title of God and quite different then here in John 1 where we have the Logos being called God without the article who is said to be with another, who John calls The God with the article.

This is why if John was truly speaking of the Logos as another literal person of God he would have used the article for both occurrences of the word God in the passage and it would have been necessary to also.

Therefore the Logos as God only refers to God by what the definition of the Logos reveals and what is meant by the word Logos itself.

Therefore the Logos was God only in regards to God’s Logic revealed by his word and it is not speaking of another literal person even though John is using the word in association to what the Philosophers taught about it as personified by them.

For John was a monotheistic Jew. In other words it would have been necessary here to use the article for both if he was truly speaking of two persons who are both The God and unlike those other passages where it isn’t necessary because only one person and being is being referred to as The God.

Therefore when it says and the Logos was pros = towards God, it simply means that God was reciprocating with his own reason and Logic = Logos.

Even Tertullian saw this as what John was doing with this passage and here is a link to what he wrote about it and also his own words about it below. The Logos of God: The Early Christian Definition of the Trinity, Part Two

Here’s Tertullian’s very interesting explanation of what logos is:

Observe, then, that when you are silently conversing with yourself, this very process is carried on within you by your reason, which meets you with a word at every movement of your thought … Whatever you think, there is a word … You must speak it in your mind …

Thus, in a certain sense, the word is a second person within you, through which in thinking you utter speech … The word is itself a different thing from yourself. Now how much more fully is all this transacted in God, whose image and likeness you are? (Against Praxeas 5)

Logos** is that voice you hear inside yourself when you are thinking. At least, that’s a rough estimation of what logos means. Tertullian goes out of his way to describe it as “a second person within you” because he’s bringing up the Logos of God as a second Person of the Trinity.**

God, according to the early churches, has always had logos inside of him.

So even Tertullian saw this much of the truth about it but then went way off base with it with his idea that just like within us, it is referring to another person and so it is with God also and which is way off from what John was revealing in John 1:1.

Therefore when it says in John 1:14, “and the Logos was made flesh and dwelt among us” it is meaning that God’s Logic was personified and fulfilled and revealed through Christ by his obedience to it without compromise and it doesn’t mean that the Logos literally became flesh.

Furthermore, this is what God has always desired from man made in his image and likeness, that through his obedience to God’s Logic in his word, that God’s Logic would also be personified and fulfilled through them as well but Adam and his descendants failed and which is why God in his foreknowledge determined in advance to send Jesus as the remedy for that failure.

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Thank you. I appreciate your response to this perplexing part of scripture that I am trying to absorb.

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I have investigated this from all scripture and have come to this conclusion based on these simple verses:

Hebrews 11:39 to 12:1
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

You can’t be a witness of anything if your spirit is waiting in the ground!

A cloud of witnesses implies those who have died before have ascended to a heavenly place (prepared by Jesus) hence the word ‘cloud’.

Witness implies active seeing.

Now, it does say they are waiting to be perfected, and this harmonizes with the rest of scripture by the perfection of the final state after the final judgement. So we get a picture of the saints who have come to live with Jesus are witnessing our great faith and expecting the final perfection as well. I always try to distill an understanding into the simplest form so I can understand it, remember it, and help teach it when needed.

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The question is false because it assumes believers are in a state of seperation from Christ (or God for that matter). Christ is ever present with us. As is God.