Christ's Olivet Discourse: Signs of the End

Theology
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Your writing puzzles me, @Fish153. Yes or no, are you saying that the incident reported by Luke did not actually happen when he said it did during Jesus’ ministry with three of his followers, one of whom was Peter? If yes, are you calling Luke a liar? And if you are giving that answer and since God inspired Luke to write this description, are you calling God a liar? I hope not. Here is Luke’s report:

Luk 9:26 Jesus: “For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luk 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”
Luk 9:28 Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white.
Luk 9:30 And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah,
Luk 9:31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luk 9:32 Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him.
Luk 9:33 And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said.
Luk 9:34 As he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.
Luk 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!”
Luk 9:36 And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.

As far as I’m concerned, the kingdom has been going on since creation, but Jesus as the triumphant God-man has joined the Father on the “throne,” the event which Daniel 7 pictures about the “son of man,” who I believe to be Jesus rejoining the Father in heaven after he returns there:

Dan 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.
Dan 7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Thus, the 3-in-1 God rules now, but the enemies in his kingdom will be justly and finally banished when Jesus comes back.

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Rev 16:17-21

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

Rev 16:17-21
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done.”

(That “seventh angel” represents Paul’s “last trump” of 1 Cor.15, which is the last day of this present world. That is when God’s cup of Wrath is poured out upon the earth, represented by that last vial. The “It is done” is in reference to the end of this present world per God’s prophets.)

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

(That’s the great earthquake of Rev.11 that will happen with Christ’s 2nd coming on that last day of this world. It is the same earthquake shown in Zechariah 14 that will split the Mount of Olives in two.)

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

(That “great city” represents earthly Jerusalem in control by the beast (Satan) at the end of this world just prior to Christ’s return. With the above event, it is about Jesus’ return that will involve God’s consuming fire burning man’s works off the surface of this earth, per 2 Peter 3:10, and it will include a 2nd shaking of this earth, and also a shaking in Heaven, as per the end of Hebrews 12.)

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

(That represents some changes upon this earth that will take place beginning on the day of Christ’s future return. God is going to start reverting how this earth originally was when His Garden of Eden was once upon this earth, with God dwelling here. Per Rev.21 He has promised to return to this earth to live with us.)

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

(That is about the battle on the last day of this present world when Jesus comes with His army from Heaven, on the “day of the Lord”. It will involve both the Gog and Magog nations of Ezekiel 38, the battles of Hamon-gog and Armageddon. All nations will then learn what God did with the lost ten tribes of Israel that He scattered, and also will know that He is Who fought this last battle for His elect, and mostly destroyed those armies of Satan that will come out of the northern quarters of the earth on that day to try and destroy God’s people.)

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Zechariah 14 most definitely is detailing the events of Christ’s future “thousand years” reign over the nations, with His elect, from Jerusalem upon this earth. The first 5 verses though are about the day of His future coming on the last day of this world, the “day of the Lord”, bringing all His saints with Him there to the Mount of Olives, on this earth. Jerusalem on earth is where God’s Word teaches He and His elect will reign from.

Christ first destroys the 7,000 written of in Jerusalem per Rev.11, on the day of His coming. Zechariah 14 shows there will be leftovers of the armies that will come upon Israel on the last day of this world. The 7,000 I believe represent Satan’s elect that will have taken over Jerusalem for Satan to reign. And I do not believe they will all be human, but will also involve Satan’s angels that are kicked out of the heavenly dimension down to this earth in our… earthly dimension when the war in Heaven of Rev.12:7 happens in our near future. Jesus said the days of His future coming would be just like the days of Noah. In the days of Noah, the fallen angels were taking wives of the daughters of flesh woman.

Rev.11 says a 10th part of the city of Jerusalem will fall. I believe that will definitely include the Temple Mount area, and the coming new 3rd temple that todays orthodox Jews in Jerusalem already have the materials to build, which is where Satan is coming to sit in and play God for the time of “great tribulation.”

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Well… you still should not be making assuming statements about how deeply I have studied, etc., when you and I can focus on just one small topic and I guarantee I can show you more Bible Scripture support about it than you can. Sorry, but I do not believe I am the one here at a disadvantage, mainly because I long ago learned to not allow men’s theories and traditions to water down the pure Word of God as written.

Those kind of things from men’s doctrines represent what Lord Jesus showed in His miracle of the fishes and loaves as baskets of fragments. So while you might think you have an advantage in learning, by your relying on those doctrines of men, which go multiple times the amount of actual Bible Scripture, they actually represent ‘pieces’ broken off the full Loaf of Bread which then have added doctrines of men.

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My turn to chime in…

One of the doctrines that the Pre-trib Rapture school uses to steer brethren away from treating Christ’s Olivet discourse involving His Church is that very description you make above which I put in Bold/Italic.

We know that theory of theirs you claim is untrue, simply because in Ephesians 2 Apostle Paul declares the Apostles and prophets as foundation stones in Christ’s Temple of The Spirit, with Jesus being The Chief Cornerstone. Furthermore, that theory by Pre-trib essentially makes those with Jesus upon the Mount of Olives as outcasts from the idea of the Church under Paul’s stewardship, a doctrine of men developed in the 1800;s called Dispensationalism, and then later Hyper-Dispensationalism.

Therefore, Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, at the Mount of Olives with His Apostles (who indeed were all Jews), represent Christ’s EARLY FOUNDATION of His Church, the SAME Church which Apostle Paul was a “chosen vessel” by Christ to bring the believing Gentiles into. This also is why the Old Testament prophets testified about the joining of the believing Gentiles with believing Israelites on their return back to the lands of promise which God gave the fathers of the literal seed of Israel.

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While we are still kicking that topic around, I have this to say.

Who today, and for what purpose, would want to hide… the Biblical fact of Jerusalem’s coming fall to false worship of a coming pseudo-Christ (i.e., false-Messiah)?

ANSWER:
the Orthodox Jews which are trying to use their being re-established as a nation again in 1948 as if the Old Testament prophets about God’s promises to gather Israel in final is happening already, when that is not… what is happening today, since it requires the 2nd coming of Lord Jesus Christ, Whom those Orthodox Jews do not believe on.

The idea of a coming false-Messiah/Antichrist to today’s Jerusalem to cause false worship is anathema to what today’s Orthodox Jewish leaders are planning for Jerusalem, as they believe the Messiah has never come yet, so they are not prepared to understand the first Messiah that is coming will be a FAKE like God’s written Word does declare. Because of this, those Orthodox Jews are not able to wrap their mind around this concept, no matter how much they love The LORD. The true Jews of the seed of Israel there in the holy land today are blinded to the fact of who is leading them, i.e., the evil basket of figs that God showed Jeremiah in Jeremiah 24.

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I don’t mind, as long as you don’t mind my disagreements that may come up.

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Here is why I emphasize the following direct statements by our Lord Jesus Christ showing that the day of His future coming and gathering of His Church will be after… the great tribulation.

Concentrate specifically on the last verse of each Scripture below, about WHERE each group of saints are gathered FROM. This will reveal how this gathering of the Church event written in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 perfectly aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the coming of Christ and gathering of the Church.

But these saints mentioned in the Mark 13 version, are gathered from where? From the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of heaven. These saints are about those of us sitll alive on earth on that future day of Christ’s coming to gather His Church. This is why many call this the actual ‘rapture’, though that word comes from a Latin translation. The KJV translation from the Greek has it as being “caught up” to Jesus in the “air” per Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Easy, peasy. TWO groups of saints gathered by Lord Jesus on that day of His future coming. The saints in Christ that have died Jesus brings with Him from heaven. The saints still alive on earth Jesus raptures up to Himself and to the asleep saints, which will involve Paul’s change to the “spiritual body” per 1 Corinthians 15:49-54.

And there it is, Lord Jesus was teaching the same COMING & GATHERING events that Paul did. And no doubt, Paul got that directly from Lord Jesus, so the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 accounts are actually the ORIGINAL prophecy on that matter.

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Bruce—

I have no idea why you would say or think I am calling Luke a liar. My whole point is that it DID happen and Peter actually SAW THE COMING OF JESUS CHRIST as he points out later in 2 Peter 1 when he says he SAW the power and coming of Jesus Christ and heard the Father’s voice from Heaven. What I was stating is that when Jesus says “Some standing here will not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming into His Kingdom” He is referring to Peter, John and James as the “SOME”, as he takes them up to the Mount of Transfiguration shortly thereafter.

All I can surmise is that you did not read what I was stating carefully, or skimmed through it quickly. I in no way infer Luke is a liar, or that Peter did not see what he saw..

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And that is… how that Scripture is meant, because in Luke 17:21 Lord Jesus said the kingdom of God is “within you.” By that He meant it the sense of The Spirit, not this flesh world.

At Lord Jesus 1st coming, it involved His Kingdom manifesting on earth by The Spirit. That’s what that, “within you” points to, and the Greek for “within” actually means ‘inside’, as the verse context points directly to that concept also…

Luke 17:21
21 Neither shall they say, “Lo here! or, lo there!” for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
KJV

Those who dwell in their carnal, fleshy mind will never understand that.

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@DavyP

Did you know that ἐντός (entos) only appears twice in the New Testament? That’s worth considering.

More importantly, though, why would Yeshua tell the Pharisees that the βασιλεία (basileia, Kingdom) of God was within them? Given His repeated rebukes of their unbelief and hypocrisy, that doesn’t seem to fit the context, does it? Wouldn’t “among you” or “in your midst” make much better sense, since the King Himself was standing before them?

εἶπεν δὲ πρὸς τοὺς μαθητάς· Ἐλεύσονται ἡμέραι ὅτε ἐπιθυμήσετε μίαν τῶν ἡμερῶν τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἰδεῖν καὶ οὐκ ὄψεσθε.

Then he said to the disciples, "The days are coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.

KJV And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Jesus shifts from addressing the Pharisees to the disciples. The phrase ‘one of the days of the Son of Man’ is unusual — it may mean ‘even a single day’ of the messianic age, suggesting a period of absence or suffering during which the disciples will yearn for his visible presence. The title ‘Son of Man’ (huios tou anthrōpou) draws from Daniel 7:13.

Just throwing in a monkey wrench for you to consider.

J.

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No though brother its not exactly that. I came out of a church culture of who had the most knowledge. So I’m not exactly about that in my current perspective. I have no doubt from your descriptions that you study deep and hard. Amen. My point to @Johann was that even where we disagree I would not see your different views as heresy. Which he seemed to consider something like that might be going on from our discussions. As for me, it was never about that. If anything I would “think” it be from a place less than heresy…or adding to the word of God even.

So an example of how I might mean though “not studied” would not be in relation to men’s doctrines or that you have not researched. Even deeply. But the example of how it might be meant is more like this. When I mentioned the great city being mentioned about other places not Jerusalem your reply that that was adding to the word of God or close to it. Because in your perspective it takes away from the central use of the term as you understand it. I would be inclined to agree with you that the preponderance of use might indeed lean in Israel’s direction. But I believe it is wise “consideration” as to it being used of others too…because that is not adding to God’s word. It is declaring it. There is a difference.

In addition, to see the understanding that the great city is used of other places and want to call that adding to the word of God because of how “we” see it, to me is symptomatic of the myopic selfie age syndrome. It does not have to be. And it actually may not be. But it kind of quacks like it. So to me, that would be a mind that is not as maturely charitable toward the forming views of others and doubles downs on its own thoughts. Which may not necessarily be your recipe as you see it. But it an “one” recipe of the spirit of the age.

Furthermore, I came from a very heady knowledge worshiping church background. And postures of whose is bigger don’t impress me. When i see that, i am sure there is more than meets the eye in what is likely not seen by those who share from that heart alignment and space. As much as, desiring to be more charitable myself, how me being as turned off by such posturing likely means the person doing that probably has more to contribute than I realize and the appearance of high mindedness might just be the devils smoke screen from things you might have learned that would actually be very helpful to me and our discussions. So it is in those ways i would see a somewhat “spirit” antithetical to mature attitudes towards study.

So there is another example but i will post it in the next one. With some other things you have also posted. By the way, thanks for clarifying your views. It sounds like you believe that the Israel on earth at end times will be judged by the 7th bowl. But that Zach 14 is after that judgment and is occurring during the thousand year reign?

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So i gave this one a heart because I’m going to respond here. You may be able to use all manner of scriptures to prove your positions. Perhaps even more than I. But that in and of itself a Berean does not necessarily make. I don’t believe any view other than your own brought to you would ever be something for you to consider. Would it? Because you’ve already decided what is true regardless. You show no interest in the care of research. So I will give you a chance to redeem yourself…lol.

Regarding the fallen angel theory, are you aware that the Septuagint dispels the notions of angels where we use verses to authenticate the Enochian view of fallen angels? Could you provide a defense as to why the Septuagint does not make a reasonable case against that theory? I could be wrong. But my sense is you may not be aware of those verses like that. And if so though i’d be interested to actually in real world terms consider your argument. I “will” do that. But let my ask you something brother. Do you consider the arguments of others? If so it has been noted by others here and myself as well that it does not come across like that. Maybe that is not of interest to you. Beyond the Septuagint question I would not really care to continue along this road because i don’t find as much charity toward conversation in your approach.

Now it may likely sound like that is because I’m milquetoast and can’t handle the truth. Which was the overreach approaching ways that was less than attractive “dispensational” approaches of the American Reformed camp had, in my estimation. I’m rather turned off by their over zealous inability to discuss and consider–something often found in many of their pockets. At least the ones i was in. Such as is common to man, though.

But i do appreciate you having shared about your views. Unlike any impact the spirit if He be in me might have upon you, i consider it a living grace to further consider your take on Zech 14. And will look upon it with honest open heart before the Lord. Blessings.

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Amen. That is excatly how it should be understood. His return will not be missed.
Peter

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Not really a monkey wrench to me at all. And here is why…

We are not just flesh. God also created us each with another body, a spirit body, what Apostle Paul called the “image of the heavenly” in 1 Cor.15 (also see 2 Cor.5) God also created us with a soul, which is about our individual person, i.e., what makes us each different from each other. Though this is a mystery, it is written in God’s Word.

This is why Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. It is also why Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 reveals there is an invisible "silver cord" that connects our spirit/soul with our flesh body, and if it is loosed (i.e., severed), then our flesh goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, but our spirit (with soul) goes back to God Who gave it.

So ask yourself, just WHICH part of our being will experience God’s future Kingdom? Biblically, regardless of men’s fleshy doctrines about the resurrection, our future state of glory will be in a "spiritual body", not another flesh body (1 Cor.15). Paul called that body the “image of the heavenly”.

Then ask yourself, did that ‘concept’ of God’s Kingdom of HEAVEN then manifest to the Pharisees per what Jesus said with, “the kingdom of God is within you”? Yes, it did, but they refused to believe on Him and accept it, which then points to what Jesus said to Nicodemus about one’s spirit must be "born again" (i.e., born of The Spirit).

That is what makes “within you” about the heavenly, Spirit manifesting of Christ’s Kingdom at His 1st coming, which is still how it is to this day on earth within His Church by those “born again” of The Holy Spirit. But when Jesus returns, that is when the literal physical Kingdom will manifest on earth, with our glorious body, as He did say that His Kingdom, meaning His physical Kingdom, is not of this world (i.e., this present world time), per John 18:36.

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I cannot agree with that reasoning. When Christ left pointers that directly point to Jerusalem in those prophecies about the end leading up to His future coming, getting away from that by ‘allowing’ men’s doctrines to creep in should be an obvious distraction from God’s written Truth in His Word.

For someone who doesn’t see those doctrines of men as distractions, then I have to assume they have been influenced by their station, or responsibility in their particular Church denomination, to abide only by what their denomination holds to as their Church doctrine. And sorry to say, just as many various denominations that exist today with the Church, those differences between them are differences in their Biblical interpretations, and often lead to adding or taking away from God’s written Word.

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Someone with ‘heady knowledge’ doesn’t impress me either.

The most intelligent and most educated person in the world cannot understand God’s written Word without God’s Blessing of The Holy Spirit given through Faith on Jesus Christ. God’s written Word was given via The Holy Spirit, and it must be understood with the help of The Holy Spirit; no shortcuts.

But does having a little education help? Of course it does. Look at Apostle Paul as an example. Even though he was taught by the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel, Paul as a Pharisee persecuted Christ’s Church. Only when Jesus struck Paul down on the road to Damascus and began opening Paul’s spiritual eyes, and Paul was baptized, did The Holy Spirit begin to open Paul’s understanding in the Scriptures he already had studied and knew. Is it any wonder then why Lord Jesus would choose Paul to write most of the Books of The New Testament?

I didn’t go to seminary, I don’t have a university degree in religion. My field of work has been in aviation, of which I began when the USAF chose that field for me during Vietnam. I then attended university for the aviation field, but I never got my Bachelor’s because my aviation job required more time out of my day.

This means, if someone thinks I sound educated, and even a little over-educated, then they are just going around in circles in their own mind, creating vain ideas that simply have no truth to them.

The Holy Spirit is my Teacher. I asked, and He gave me understanding according to my Faith on my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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Does that mean I must forget what I said about education vs. The Holy Spirit?

I don’t know where in the world you are getting that idea in your head about Israel being judged on the 7th Vial. I never said that. Have you not understood about Jesus’ parable of “Blessed are the barren…” that He quoted to the daughters of Jerusalem in Luke 23:26-31?

Also see the end of Zechariah 12 where all the families of Israel that were deceived will mourn when Jesus appears, and they will then know in shame what they have done by rejecting Him. That is their judgment at Christ’s coming, IF… you want to call that a judgment. This is why in that “Blessed are the barren…” parable Jesus quoted in Luke 23 mentions when this happens, those deceived Jews, because of their shame, will wish for the mountains and the hills to fall upon them. That points to the time Apostle Paul mentioned in Romans 11 when their spiritual blindness God put upon them will be removed. It will happen suddenly on the day of Christ’s future return.

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Sorry brother, but you assume too much about me.

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And now it looks like you also assume too much about the Greek Septuagint translation. It was a translation done in Egypt by Greek speaking Jews in the 3rd century B.C. Are you familiar with some of the writings of the early Christian Church in Alexandria, Egypt, like from Origen or Clement? They got in trouble for allegorizing too much of God’s written Word.

Thus the Septuagint translation is not really the most accurate Old Testament translation. The most accurate Old Testament manuscripts are those that have the Massorah notes within the pages, manuscripts which even the 1611 KJV translators did not have. (See Christian David Ginsberg’s Massaretico-critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible)

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