Thank you Peter C for your apology but not necessary. You are 1 of my 4 to 5 brothers I turn to for clarifications on many things. On this particular subject which interests me, the “white noise” basically was everyone just going back and forth saying the same things and waaaay too much of the knowledge imparted was over my head. Which is why I spend time looking up meanings…lol If you and the others have time please read on today’s Christianity.com article by Britt Mooney called “How Do Scriptural Truths Move From Our Heads To Our Hearts”. It is wonderfully written and I was going to pull the applicable text for our subject and place here but I don’t want to be accused of plagiarism, which I could unknowingly do. LOL PS. I have a topic which I need desperately to have you guys inputs but I’ll put on a different topic thread. Have a very Blessed Sabbath.
Johann, thanks very much for info on Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. I began reading Acts about a week ago and after seeing Johnson’s 1 2/2 hr delve into it, I’m going to start over with a new perspective . At the end what he said about water baptism was interesting but for another thread.
I love his Book of Romans series.
Romans 9:19-23
Romans 9:14-18
When God Did Not Predestinate Calvin’s Election
Romans 8:31-34
Romans 8:29-30
Resolving Eternal Security with Right Division
How Christ Brought Grace To All
Grace As A Gift
Calvinism vs. Arminianism
2 Timothy 2:10
2 Timothy 1:9 Pt 2
2 Timothy 1:9
Calvinism’s Confusion – Part 3
Calvinism’s Confusion – Part 2
Calvinism’s Confusion
Limited or Unlimited Ransom
Romans 9:9-18
God Hated Esau
Keeping Your Salvation
Why Some Men Don’t Believe
Christ Died for All
Biblical Election
Five Points of Calvin, Arminians, and Paul
Man’s Depravity and Paul
Calvinists, Arminians, and Paul
Chart: Right Division with Respect to Calvin
Five Points of Calvinism
Could Pharaoh Repent?
What Daniel Whittle Did Not Know
The Greatness of God
Calvin’s Election Doesn’t Work
Predestination and Intervention
The Election of God
Covenant Theology
What Would Jesus Do?
…and gave me some food for thought @jjgulfwarvet
J.
That of course is a lie. Just because I have a Companion Bible which is a KJV Bible that Bullinger put together, does not mean I follow the errors that Bullinger believed, like the false pre-trib rapture theory. I have several different Bible versions, and the ones that mostly stay on my shelf are those based on Wescott and Hort’s later corrupted Greek New Testament that they themselves created in 1881 for the revision committee.
Pretty obvious that some of you guys here are better at SMEAR CAMPAIGNS than reading and studying your Bible.
Look brother @DavyP, I would rather apologize to you, even though I do not agree with your exegesis concerning the bodies of believers or your eschatology.
All good?
J.
Yeah, don’t worry about it.
It fits nicely with the description of the beast from the earth in Revelation 13, which has two horns like a lamb (appearance of holiness) but speaks like a dragon (lies & kills).
Yes, because it’s the same warning about the coming of a false-Messiah who comes first, that Lord Jesus showed us in Matthew 24:23-26 and that Paul gave us in 2 Thessalonians 2, and even hinted at in 2 Corinthians 11 with the “another Jesus” (KJV).
Even Rabbi Kaduri revealed that the messiah’s name is Joshua (Jesus) before he died. Something about that name. Joshua the High Priest was anointed to rebuild the temple and became a symbol for the Branch (a Zadokite). Interestingly, the desecration of the second temple began by a man named Joshua, who changed his name to Jason after having his brother removed from the office of high priest. He then went on to Hellenize Jerusalem before quickly being replaced. Jason was the last Zadokite high priest. Then Jesus of Nazareth came in the order of Melchizedek as high priest. Perhaps the false messiah will be named Joshua and then later change his name?
The main thing we do know per God’s Word, is the coming false-Messiah (or pseudochristos of Matt.24:24), will try and mimic Messiah, which means our Lord Jesus Christ.
Lord Jesus was born of the house of David, of the tribe of Judah. Thus he will have to be presented as a Jew. (Sorry Reformers, that don’t mean a Catholic pope). The early Church father Hippolytus admitted this fact Messiah also.
Per Bible prophecy, Messiah when He comes is to be King of Israel. That’s why His disciples thought at Jesus’ 1st coming He was going to literally takeover and become King of Israel at Jerusalem, per the Old Testament prophets. That also worried the scribes and Pharisees who sought to kill Jesus being made King upon Zion because they also knew that prophecy, like in Psalms 2.
The Daniel 11 Scripture about the “vile person” that becomes king at Jerusalem using peace and flattery has a short description that he will become strong with a small people (KJV). I see that as the scribes and Pharisees that work against Christ as being that “small people”, actually meaning a small group of Jewish leaders in Jerusalem (like the Jewish Sanhedrin which formed up again over a decade ago). I believe they will claim the false-Messiah as the TRUE MESSIAH, and will setup the false one up as king at Jerusalem.
The Zechariah 6 prophecy about The BRANCH is actually a pointer to Lord Jesus Christ, because Jesus will be both, a High Priest and The King reigning upon His coming throne inherited from David, an earthly throne. There has never been a king of Israel that was both a high priest and a king at the same time.
Not what God’s Word teaches.
The coming “great tribulation” will be Satan’s wrath upon Christ’s elect Church (excepting the plagues caused by God’s “two witnesses”).
Per Mark 13, Lord Jesus forewarned His elect that some of us would be delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan to give TESTIMONY for Jesus against the beast. And Lord Jesus said to not think beforehand what we will say in that hour, but to speak whatever The Holy Spirit gives us to say, for it won’t be us speaking, but The Holy Spirit speaking through us. That is to happen upon those of Christ’s elect Church that will not… be deceived by the coming false-Messiah who comes before Lord Jesus does. Because those of us will reject that false-Messiah, we will be hated by the deceived all around us, which may include even family members, like Lord Jesus showed there in Mark 13.
Sorry, but won’t be here for the great tribulation because the rapture will take me everyone looking for him away. If you are preparing yourself for the great tribulation: you have no idea what is about to happen.
Watchman Jim
There is an important distinction to be made between the terminology used in these passages. In Matthew 24:24, Jesus says, ἐγερθήσονται γὰρ ψευδόχριστοι καὶ ψευδοπροφῆται, “for false Christs and false prophets will arise.”
The noun ψευδόχριστοι (pseudochristoi) is nominative masculine plural, meaning “false Christs” or “false Messiahs,” and the verb ἐγερθήσονται (egerthēsontai), “will arise,” is likewise third-person plural.
Mark 13:22 uses the same plural expression. Therefore, Matthew 24:24 does not speak grammatically of a singular ψευδόχριστος (pseudochristos), although that is the singular lexical form found in dictionaries.
John, however, uses different terminology. In 1 John 2:18 he writes, καθὼς ἠκούσατε ὅτι ὁ ἀντίχριστος ἔρχεται, “just as you heard that the Antichrist is coming,” followed immediately by καὶ νῦν ἀντίχριστοι πολλοὶ γεγόνασιν, “and now many antichrists have arisen.” Here ὁ ἀντίχριστος (ho antichristos) is singular, while ἀντίχριστοι πολλοί (antichristoi polloi) is plural.
The verb ἔρχεται (erchetai) is singular, “is coming,” whereas γεγόνασιν (gegonasin) is third-person plural, “have arisen/become.” Thus John himself distinguishes between the expected coming of the Antichrist and the existence of many antichrists already present.
Paul uses neither of these nouns in 2 Thessalonians 2. Instead, he speaks of ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, “the man of lawlessness,” and describes this individual in the singular throughout the passage. Likewise, in 2 Corinthians 11:4, Paul warns about ἄλλον Ἰησοῦν, “another Jesus,” in the context of false apostles and deceptive teachers who proclaim a different Jesus, spirit, and gospel.
That passage therefore deserves to be considered as part of the broader biblical pattern of deception, but its immediate context does not explicitly identify ἄλλον Ἰησοῦν with either Matthew’s ψευδόχριστοι or John’s ὁ ἀντίχριστος.
Consequently, it is certainly possible to argue canonically that Matthew 24, 2 Thessalonians 2, and the Johannine passages converge upon a broader eschatological expectation of deception culminating in a particular opponent of Christ. But that connection needs to be demonstrated from the respective contexts and their intertextual relationships. We should not make Matthew’s plural ψευδόχριστοι singular merely because we believe it corresponds to the singular ὁ ἀντίχριστος or Paul’s ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας.
The grammatical distinction is real, and it needs to be preserved even if we ultimately conclude that these passages describe related aspects of the same eschatological reality.
@TheologyNerd would you say this is a correct exegesis of the text? I was “slam-dunked” by @DavyP today and just want to hear from you “Yeah” or “Nay”
There isn’t a universally agreed number because different scholars divide the views differently, and some are variations of the same position. I can can identify roughly 8–12 major interpretive models, with many sub-variants.
The major ones include…
A future individual ruler - the Antichrist is a still-future individual who appears shortly before Christ’s return. This is common in futurist and dispensational readings.
The man of lawlessness, Antichrist - 2 Thessalonians 2’s ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας (“man of lawlessness”) is identified with the Antichrist of 1 John, despite Paul never actually using the term antichristos.
A Jewish false Messiah -the final opponent is understood as a Jewish claimant to messianic authority who deceives Israel or humanity.
A Gentile political ruler - the Antichrist is understood primarily as an imperial/political ruler who opposes God and dominates the nations.
The Antichrist as the Beast - Revelation 13’s θηρίον (“beast”) is identified with the Antichrist, even though Revelation itself never uses the noun antichristos.
The Antichrist as a historical ruler - particularly in historicist interpretation, various figures have been proposed, including Nero, Domitian, various emperors, and later political/religious rulers.
The Antichrist as Rome/the Roman Empire - the imperial system itself, rather than one individual, represents the antichristic power.
The papacy - a major Reformation-era interpretation identified the papal system with Antichrist. This became especially prominent among Lutherans and Reformed Protestants.
Antichrist as a recurring spirit/power - based especially on 1 John 4:3, where John speaks of τὸ τοῦ ἀντιχρίστου, “the spirit of Antichrist,” already operating in the world.
The Antichrist as a first-century phenomenon - the relevant prophecies are understood primarily in relation to the conflicts surrounding the early Church, sometimes particularly the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Preterist interpretations - the relevant figures are sought primarily among first-century opponents of Christ and His Church, with Nero being a particularly common candidate.
Idealist/symbolic interpretation - “Antichrist” represents the recurring principle of opposition to Christ rather than one identifiable historical or future individual.
And there are hybrid positions everywhere. As I’m sure you are well aware of.
But here’s the really interesting thing for this study.
The Bible never gives us one passage that says, “The Antichrist is the Beast of Revelation, who is the man of lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians 2, who is the false Messiah of Matthew 24.”
That’s an interpretive synthesis.
There is more to discuss, but not here.I must be tired, I’ve only just noticed that @PeterC actually doesn’t agree with Davy at all.
Shalom.
J.
And here…
Eschatological theories/models in Christianity, there isn’t a fixed number. Once you include different approaches to the millennium, tribulation, rapture, Israel and the Church, Daniel, Revelation, and the Antichrist, you can easily identify 15–20 major models, with numerous hybrids.
The main families are…:
Dispensational Premillennialism - often subdivided into pre-tribulational, mid-tribulational, pre-wrath, and post-tribulational rapture views.
Historic Premillennialism - Christ returns, then establishes the millennium.
Postmillennialism - the Gospel progressively transforms the world before Christ’s return.
Amillennialism - the millennium is understood symbolically as the present reign of Christ rather than a future earthly thousand-year kingdom.
Partial Preterism - much of Matthew 24 and Revelation concerns first-century events, while the Second Coming remains future.
Full Preterism - essentially all biblical eschatological prophecy, including Christ’s “coming,” is understood as fulfilled in the first century. This is rejected by most orthodox Christian traditions.
Idealism - Revelation depicts recurring spiritual realities rather than primarily predicting a chronological series of historical events.
Historicism - Revelation progressively describes the course of Church history.
Futurism - major portions of biblical prophecy remain future, particularly Daniel, Matthew 24, 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 4–22.
Progressive Dispensationalism - retains distinctions in God’s promises to Israel while emphasizing their present realization in Christ and the Church.
Covenant/Postmillennial approaches - often interpret prophetic Israel-language through covenant fulfillment in Christ and the people of God.
Two-covenant / some Messianic Jewish approaches - maintain a continuing theological significance for Israel while affirming salvation through Israel’s Messiah.
Zionist/Restorationist futurism - expects a future national restoration of Israel connected with Christ’s return.
Pre-wrath rapture - places the rapture after the Antichrist’s persecution but before God’s eschatological wrath.
Post-tribulational rapture- the Church remains through the tribulation and meets Christ at His coming.
Pre-tribulational rapture - the Church is removed before the tribulation.
Mid-tribulational rapture - the rapture occurs around the midpoint of the final period.
Multiple-stage or partial-rapture theories - various proposals involving more than one gathering of believers.
And then you get combinations. Someone might be a futurist, premillennialist, dispensationalist, pre-tribulationist, and believe the Beast, Antichrist and man of lawlessness are the same individual. Another person can be futurist, premillennialist, but historic premillennial rather than dispensational. Another can be amillennial and partial-preterist.
So if someone asks, “What is the biblical eschatological view?”, the first question should probably be, IMHO.
Which eschatological question are we actually asking?
And @DavyP has it right.
J.
You are correct. What you are trying to portray is NOT taught in God’s Word. I’m starting to think you are either delusional or completely misled by whatever camp you are part of. The idea that the “great tribulation” is primarily Satan’s wrath directed at the Church, rather than God’s wrath poured out on an unbelieving world, aligns with Pre-Wrath or Post-Tribulation eschatological frameworks. While these views use passages like Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Revelation to argue that Christians will experience severe persecution before Christ returns, your interpretation mixes several distinct ideas:
Many theologians distinguish between the persecution suffered by believers (attributed to Satan or worldly powers) and the final wrath of God (from which believers are spared, according to passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:9). You seem to be adopting this distinction to argue that the tribulation period itself is Satanic persecution rather than divine judgment.
Mark 13:9–13 explicitly mentions believers being brought before councils, synagogues, and rulers to bear witness, as well as family betrayal. However, these warnings are applying directly to the first-century apostles (who literally faced local Jewish councils and Roman authorities), while also having broader application for persecuted Christians throughout history. Not ot exclusively a specific, future event involving a singular “false-Messiah.”
You frame your view as the only thing “God’s Word teaches,” ignoring that mainstream Christian theology (including Pre-Tribulational, Historicist, and Amillennial views) interprets the sequence of end-times events, the nature of the Tribulation, and the role of the Church quite differently.
The assertion that refusal to follow a coming false Messiah will lead directly to being handed over to “the synagogue of Satan” combines selective scriptural proof-texting with a dogmatic stance that leaves no room for standard biblical hermeneutics. You are wrong, but nice try.
Peter
That’s a poor excuse for your NOT keeping to the actual Bible Scriptures as written.
You might want to read that Mark 13 Chapter where Jesus forewarned His elect Church about being delivered up to give a Testimony for Him, which will be during the “great tribulation”. That event was prophesied first at the end of Joel 2 about God’s Spirit upon His people, which Apostle Peter quoted on Pentecost about the “cloven tongue.” And it don’t mean a gibberish tongue either. It means everyone, the whole world over, will hear those delivered up speak by The Holy Spirit in the very dialects of their town of birth.
And how is what I have spelled out to you, using the same text as you, using the original language, “NOT keeping to the actual Bible Scriptures as written”? I think I will stick with my original statement that you are either delusional or completely misled by whatever camp you are part of.
You see? You are engaging in eisegesis. Reading a pre-arranged theological system into the text rather than letting the specific contexts of Mark 13, Acts 2, and Joel 2 speak for themselves.
Here are three primary areas where your claims stretch or misapply what Scripture actually says. Ready? What you claim. That the outpouring of the Holy Spirit for testimony during the Great Tribulation is what Joel 2 and Peter at Pentecost were actually foretelling.
What does Scripture actually say? In Acts 2:16, Peter explicitly declares: “This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.” Peter states that Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy initiating the “last days.” While Joel 2 extends to the final Day of the Lord, Davey retrofits Pentecost back into a futuristic Tribulation framework rather than honoring Peter’s direct statement that it began right then and there in the first century.
What you claim. Mark 13:11 is a specific blueprint for how believers will speak when delivered up during a future Great Tribulation.
What Scripture actually says. Jesus spoke Mark 13:11 directly to His apostles (Peter, James, John, and Andrew; see Mark 13:3). While the Olivet Discourse contains both immediate and future horizon elements, we see the literal fulfillment of Mark 13:11 repeatedly in the Book of Acts. Such as Peter before the Sanhedrin (Acts 4:8) and Stephen before the Council (Acts 6:10). Jesus was preparing His disciples for immediate local trials in the first century, not exclusively or strictly laying out an end-times supernatural dialect protocol.
What you claim. When believers are delivered up in the Tribulation, the Holy Spirit will automatically make everyone hear them in their exact native birth dialect, just like the “cloven tongues” at Pentecost.
What Scripture actually says. Mark 13:11 says, “Do not worry beforehand about what you will say… for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.” It mentions the content of the testimony given by the Holy Spirit, but it says nothing about miraculous translation or everyone hearing local dialects (dialektos). You are taking the distinct structural miracle of Acts 2 and forcing it into Mark 13, where the text doesn’t mention it at all.
It seems like you are taking three separate biblical events and threading them together into a single, highly specific scenario that no individual passage actually teaches.
Mark 13:11 gives boldness and wisdom under trial. Acts 2 gives known foreign languages for missionary witness at Pentecost. Joel 2 announces the outpouring of the Spirit in the last days.
By mashing them together, you create a custom doctrine that isn’t explicitly supported by the text.
Peter
And I will stick to what I claim about your following doctrines of men instead of the actual written Word of God.
Dealing with Biblical illiteracy with you sure gets tiring. You are not getting any points with those here who want to actually know what God’s Word teaches while you are Biblically illiterate.
Mark 13:9-19
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
KJV
Verse 9 - Christ warning His elect Church that some of us will be delivered up to give a Testimony against the beast for Jesus. This event is especially set for the “great tribulation” time.
Verse 10 - this verse is generally considered to only mean the spreading of The Gospe to the nations after the cross. But per the Greek it is an example like the town crier, a herald, at the town square declaring The Gospel. It is given in between the prior delivering up verse, and the next 11th verse about Christ’s elect being delievered up to give a Testimony via The Holy Spirit.
Verse 12 - betrayals to the death by even family members against each other is one of the signs Jesus gives for the “great tribulation” time.
Verse 13 - His elect who will be delivered up will be hated by all the world. That’s a great tribulation timed event, NOT Acts 2 Pentecost.
Verse 14 - Seeing the “abomination of desolation” setup in Jerusalem at that time as written in the Book of Daniel is “great tribulation” timing, not Acts 2 timing.
Verse 15 thru 19 - all “great tribulation” timing for the very end of this world.
Peter quoted from Joel 2 about the “cloven tongue”, showing Pentecost was an EXAMPLE of the Joel 2 prophecy that is set to happen in the last days, especially for the “great tribulation” time just PRIOR to the “day of the Lord.”
Acts 2:16-21
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
KJV
You keep making these allegations. Proof?
Again. Proof. One passage you think I do not understand and why? I have already proven you wrong on several occasions. I’m waiting.
Peter