Or another way to say it is this. Jesus IS God. This is what these verses are conveying. I suppose you can use the words, comic Christ, and though that sounds like the second part of the Syfy double feature from the 70s
Simply not true. You said it. Or posted it. Not me. If this is what he is teaching, then he is wrong. If there was another way to be saved, without even knowing Jesus, then the sacrifice would be for nothing. The statement Jesus made about being THE way, the truth, and the life would be a lie.
Peter
John 3 verse 16 promises everlasting life to whoever believes in Him.
Yep, and it also says that those who do not perish, not stay in a state of perpetual dying. Their destruction is eternalāthey donāt come back, but the God who said an eye for an eyeānot to give more than a just punishment is not going to make someone writhe in pain eternally. Deuteronomy 25:1-3
punishment was limited and not excessive
Romans 6:23
āFor the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal lifeā¦ā
not eternal life in torment but death vs life
Jesus died so we may not suffer the second death, so there must be a second death, not a second eternal dying.
Revelation 20:14
āThis is the second death.ā
Psalm 37:20
āthe wicked shall perishā¦ into smoke shall they consume awayā
Your argument conflates proportional civil penalties in Israelās judicial law with Godās final judgment, and you overlook how Scripture defines the nature and duration of that judgment using precise lexical terms.
The verb × ×× nÄįøµÄh refers to judicial striking within Israelās covenant law, limited for earthly courts, not a statement about eschatological punishment.
ĻĪµĪ»ĪµĻ Ļį¾· teleuta is negated, ādoes not die,ā and ĻĪ²ĪĪ½Ī½Ļ ĻĪ±Ī¹ sbennytai āis not quenched,ā both present tense, indicating unending condition.
ĻĪµĪ¹ĻĻĪ½ĪæĻ cheironos āworseā punishment implies degrees, not limitation to temporal cessation.
The lexical and syntactical data show that ādestructionā is not simple extinction but an enduring state of ruin under judgment, and the limitation in Deuteronomy governs human courts, not the eternal justice of God.
@Hungry, God did not tell Adam and Eve to avoid populating the earth. Of course, people should have children in their marriages, since Paul tells parents to raise their children with loving limits and with the gospel. The Bible doesnāt say that God āput the cunning one in the garden.ā Where did you find that idea? Adam and Eve could have rejected Satanās temptation, but they decided to run their own lives and suffered for it. Yes, I always want to be more like God, to be renewed in his image, as Paul says.
I donāt think He is wrong, I think I get itā¦.everyone who will be saved as saved meaning heaven when one dies might not know Christ the way we do, but if worth saving still would be saved by Him.
Then you have a real problem with Jesus dying the second death for us. If some donāt die, it was futile. You must read john 3:16 again. It means that those who dont believe will die, if those who believe wont. The soul that sinneth, it shall die.Ez 18:20 We are not eternal. Only God has immortality. 1 Tim 6:16.
If we believe God is perfectly just, then He must be the fairest being in existence. It wouldnāt be ājustā to judge someone based on a message they never heard. Therefore, we can trust that He has a wayāwhether through nature, conscience, or a direct encounterāto make sure every person has a real moment of choice.
āThe heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiworkā¦ Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.ā Psalm 19:1ā4
āFor what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.ā Romans 1:19ā20
God has written a āmoral lawā on every human heart, providing an internal compass that points toward His justice.
" For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requiresā¦ They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witnessā¦ on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." Romans 2:14ā16
If Godās stated desire is for everyone to be saved, it follows logically for many that He would provide the necessary means for everyone to hear the truth.
āThis is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.ā 1 Timothy 2:3ā4
āThe true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.ā John 1:9
These passages suggest that God responds to those who āgropeā or āseekā after Him, regardless of their starting point, and will ensure they find the truth.
" And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earthā¦ that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us." Acts 17:26ā27
āYou will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.ā Jeremiah 29:13
As for Noah, thatās a different era. The old covenant is not really relevant to our current discussion.
Peter
Hence one might describe JESUS before He came to earth as, Universal Christ.
Jesus is the living word, and was the word made flesh.
What did the word do before it came into the world?
Who was in the beginning with God, and who is said to be God-according to John 1:1
What does the name Jesus mean?
Who is I am that I am?
What does it mean that the only name given by which one can be saved is through Jesus?
ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦..
For Dallas Willard, salvation through Jesus is not about earning heaven, but rather receiving the life of God through a personal relationship with the living Christ, who brings people into his kingdom and transforms them. It emphasizes that Jesus alone, as the incarnate God (Logos), has the unique authority and nature to bring human beings into Godās presence.
Relationship Over Formula:Being āsavedā by the name of Jesus is not a magical formula but an invitation to an apprenticeship with Him, learning to live within the kingdom of God here and now.
The Transformation Process: Willard often defined the gospel as āhow to get into heaven before you die,ā meaning salvation transforms oneās character into that of Christās, starting immediately rather than just in the afterlife.
The āCosmicā Christ:Willard expressed that through Godās vast grace, anyone who is saved is saved because the Jesus we knowāwho is also the cosmic Christ (or Logos)āhas reached out to them, even if they didnāt know him by name during their life.
The Only Way: He acknowledged the exclusivity of Christās statement in John 14:6, emphasizing that the ādistressed human conditionā has its only cure in the spiritual reality brought by Jesus.
Apprenticeship, Not Just Believing: Saving faith for Willard was not just a belief system, but an active, daily apprenticeship to Jesus, characterized by obedience and the growth of character.
I think it might be, thatās why I asked the question
1 Peter 3 around 21
Who instructed Noah?
Is God and His word one?
Who spoke to Noah?
I also wonder whose speaking when the term Lord is used?
The Rock that was with Israel, who did that represent? So yes I believe it is relevant to discussion. Meditate on old testament scriptures and letās see how. For God is the sameā¦.is He not?
I even wonder if the āWordā or Logos is the council of God-so now..where is @Johann when you need Him . Johann can we get some help here in explaining that term?
Willard taught that the Logos (Word of God) is the living, active, personal presence of Jesus Christ himself, rather than just the written Bible. While the Bible is the āunique written Word,ā Willard emphasized the āWordā as a creative substance (the āword of the kingdomā) that nourishes the soul and connects humans to the Kingdom of God.
Key Takeaways on Willardās View of the Logos/Word:
The Living Word: The Word of God is not just paper and ink, but the
living Word
āwho is present and active in our lives.
The Connective Substance: Willard described the Word of God as the āconnective system that integrates the person into the Kingdom of Godā.
Bible vs. Logos: He distinguished between the Bible (the written word) and the Word of God as a āreal substanceā that shapes the mind and heart.
Spirit and Life: He argued that Jesusā words are āspirit and life,ā which bring the kingdom of God to life within people.
Willard focused heavily on ācontinuing in his wordā
(JOHN 8:31)
, which he interpreted as putting Jesusā teachings into practice to develop a āconversational relationshipā with God
1 He was creating everything that is, was, or ever would be.
āAll things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.ā John 1:3
āFor by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesāall things were created through him and for him.ā Colossians 1:16
You know, being God.
"I and the Father are one.ā John 10:30
2 Being God.
āIn the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.ā John 1:1
"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.ā John 8:58
3 āGod with us.ā
āBehold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuelā (which means āGod with usā. Matthew 1:23
4 God. Jesus, the Alpha and the Omega.
"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.ā John 8:58
5 There is no other way. Simply put, you cannot get to God if you leave God out.
āFor to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.ā Isaiah 9:6
āFor in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,ā Colossians 2:9
āHe is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,ā Hebrews 1:3
Actually, the Word says that God leads people to Jesus, and Jesus keeps them until the time comes.
āNo one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.ā John 6:44
We should most definitely be transformed by our thanksgiving for being saved and because of what Jesus did for us. Absolutely. We are to be new creatures.
Yeah, faith in Him, His resurrection, and then we are saved. Not through ignorance, not against our will, and not because āComic Christā saves everyone. Faith in Jesus, His resurrection, and His authority.
Sure. If someone is not producing fruit, I would question their salvation to begin with.
Peter
This may be a rabbit hole, but I am curious. So. Huh?
God, God, and usually, God.
āFor Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when Godās patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.ā 1 Peter 3:18-20
So Jesus came and suffered one for our sins. The Righteous, who, Jesus, died for the unrighteous, who? Us. That He might bring who? Us, to God, by putting who to death in the flesh, US, and making US alive in the spirit.
Still not sure what your point is about Noah, though.
The āRockā that accompanied Israel in the wilderness is traditionally identified as representing Jesus Christ. This connection is explicitly drawn in the New Testament, specifically in 1 Corinthians 10:4, which states:
āAnd all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.ā
The representation is rooted in two primary events in Exodus and Numbers, where God provided water from a rock to sustain the Israelites: Exodus 17 (Rephidim): Moses was commanded to strike the rock to bring forth water. This can also be described as a type of the crucifixionāChrist being āstruckā once to provide the āliving waterā of salvation. Numbers 20 (Kadesh): Moses was commanded to speak to the rock. When he struck it instead, he was disciplined.
The concept of God as a āRockā (Tsur in Hebrew) is a recurring theme throughout the Hebrew Bible, symbolizing: Stability and Strength: āThe Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer.ā
Just as the physical rock provided literal water in a desert, the āSpiritual Rockā is viewed as the source of eternal life. In the Septuagint and the Greek New Testament, the word used is petra (\pi\acute{\epsilon}\tau\rho\alpha), denoting a massive, living rock or bedrock, rather than a small stone (petros). Perhaps @Johann could help us out with this one.
Peter was saying He did not see How the old testament had to do with the discussion of the cosmic Christ.
And in short the meaning of Cosmic Christ in terms of Salvation, heaven when one dies, is that Christ is not limited to His entrance into the world.
So then what would be a good example of how āGodā as the I Am That I Am, or The Word before it came into the world could bring someone of another faith into heaven?
Based on Dallas Willardās emphasis on the āall-inclusive community of loving personsā and that God is Agape, he would likely explain that God works in people of other faiths by drawing them toward a life of sacrificial love, regardless of whether they have a formal theological understanding of Jesusās incarnation.
Godās Universal Activity: Willard taught that God is constantly working across all human history.
The Power of Love: When someone, regardless of religious background, moves away from self-centeredness and begins to love their enemies or bless those who curse them, they are engaging in the character of God, which is the life of the Kingdom of God.
Following the Light: Willard, in line with authors like C.S. Lewis, believed that those who truly seek truth and goodness (the āWordā) are ultimately responding to the promptings of the Logos (the āWord before it came into the worldā).
The Final Alignment: He often emphasized that Godās love is for everyone, and His aim is to redeem the whole world, suggesting that those who lived by the reality of love (Agape) in their lives, even in ignorance, are responsive to the āI Amā.
Essentially, Willard would likely say that through āthe Wordā working in their heart, a person might live a life of selfless serviceāwhich is the character of Christāand thus be brought into Godās kingdom.
Oprahās - spiritual approach is misguided because it promotes a self-sufficient āNew Ageā spirituality focused on human potential rather than transformation through Jesus Christ. He termed this āOprahcization,ā arguing it replaces genuine repentance and reliance on God with a self-help philosophy.
Willardās primary arguments regarding why this perspective is incorrect include:
Self-Reliance vs. God-Reliance:
Oprah
focuses on the idea that āyou can do itā and following your own heart, which
WILLARD
viewed as dangerous self-sufficient pride that ignores the human need for God.
Misunderstanding Spiritual Formation:
Oprah
advocates for a broad, āfeel-goodā spirituality, whereas
WILLARD
advocated for strict spiritual formation, which is the process of being transformed into the character of Christ.
Ignoring Genuine Repentance:
WILLARD
believed that true spiritual life requires transforming the heart through repentance and aligning with divine reality, not just changing oneās mindset to achieve personal desires.
āEar Ticklingā Messaging:
WILLARD
was concerned that such messages, while well-intentioned, do not prepare people for the true, often difficult, work of spiritual growth
Not trying to be argumentative. That is a nice story. A nice concept. However, it is NOT Biblical. It is a way to excuse the sacrifice of Jesus and include other ways to heaven. The plan is simple.
āWhoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.ā 1 John 5:12
"Jesus looked at them and said, āWith man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.ā Mark 10:27
And of course this truth.
āFor it is by grace you have been saved, through faithāand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godānot by works, so that no one can boast.ā ā Ephesians 2:8-9
God made it simple; man complicates it. Faith in Jesus = Life. 0 Jesus, 0 life.
Peter
Scripture says God is love, and how can you say you love God and hate your brother who you see daily.
Scripture says pursue peace with all man for without it you cannot see the kingdom.
Scripture says the kingdom is righteousness, peace and Joy in the Holyghost.
Scripture says seek ye first the kingdomā¦.
So unless you have not read the flow of information..then you simply have no leggs to stand on, empty comment.
Scripture says the only name which one can be saved is Jesusā¦rightā¦
And what can name mean? It could mean His presence or reality.
Also God is omnipresent
If someone comes in contact with Christ presence do you think they know His name? Especially sense His name is I am that Iam ( his presence)
So yes itās biblical ā¦Peter in the Bible realized it when He said: He perceived God was no respecter of persons, that anyone that does righteous is acceptable on to Him.
It is Biblical because God holds everything up by the word of His powerā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦.
Based on Hebrews 1:3, this phrase means Jesus actively sustains, carries, and holds the entire universeāfrom galaxies to individual heartbeatsātogether by the authority of His spoken word. It portrays an active, ongoing maintenance of creation rather than passive existence, where He controls all things and provides, upholds, and reigns over everything.
Key aspects of this concept include:
Active Sustaining:
The phrase āupholdingā implies an active, energetic maintenance of all things, not merely sitting back.
Power of the Word: Jesus upholds creation by the same powerful, living Word that created it.
Authority Over All: Jesus holds all authority in heaven, sustaining every detail of life.
Connection to Salvation: The same power that created and sustains the universe was used to purify sins before He sat down at the right hand of God.
Comfort and Security: This provides believers with the assurance that God is in control, offering strength and peace when facing lifeās challenges.
This verse affirms that Jesus is not only the Creator but also the current sustainer of all existence
It is not: ā a way to excuse the sacrifice of Jesus and include other ways to heavenā. The plan is simple.
Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.
What Jesus did is Love and self sacrificeā¦.and if someone as Willard said lives a life of selfless service then arenāt they connected to the character of God who is love? Isnāt that the key to become like Christ so you can be around the Father?
Actuallyā¦Ephes 2 could mean the faith or faithfullness of Jesus- so u read it one way..while others think of it another. So not so āsimpleā as you say when people have not arrived at the same understanding.
Based on Willardās teachings, particularly regarding the āfaith of Christ,ā Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to the faith that resides in Jesus Christ HimselfāHis own faithfulness and trust in the Father. Rather than merely āfaith in Christ,ā Willard emphasizes that believers enter into the very faith that Christ had, making it a gift that connects us to His life.
Key Contextual Points from Dallas Willard:
The Faith of Christ: Willard often aligns with the view that the Greek pistis Christou refers to Christās faithfulness (subjective genitive). In his book The Scandal of the Kingdom, he states that faith in Christ is the entryway into having the same kind of faith that Christ had.
Grace and Effort: Willard often said, āGrace is not opposed to effort; it is opposed to earningā. He interprets the passage to mean that salvation is a gift, but it engages the believer in a life of active discipleship, not passive belief.
The Gift of God: While many debate if āthatā refers to faith, Willardās focus is on the total transformation (salvation) as the gift. This gift provides the power to live a new life rather than just a pass to heaven.
Surrounding Context (Ephesians 2:10): Willard emphasizes that this saved state makes us Godās workmanship, created for a life of āgood worksā that we walk in, which is the natural result of receiving this grace.
Therefore, no one is not saying Jesus is not the way..But Is not Jesus the wisdom and power of God..
The ideal of me mentioning The cosmic Christ is to see that He is the word even before He comes into creation.
Sense God holds everything up by the word of His powerā¦then we see the actions of God. They did not just exist because He came in timeā¦.Hence Jesus as the word and His word does not come back void.
The āwordā must be of self sacrifice or in essence love and that is still the universal Christ that came into the world and showed what love looked like.
God so love the world that He gaveā¦ā¦giving selflessly is a characteristic of God. And I believe when we are caught up in His actions we come to be known by Him, and to know Him. And isnāt that what eternalife, or eternal living is- to know the only true God and Jesus who He has sent?
And scripture says: Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very worksā sake.
You see? Why Should they believe that He is in the Father? Isnāt it because He is doing the works of the Father, caught up in His will and not His own?
Hence if we too do the works of the father through the sonā¦..being created in Christ Jesusā¦who do you think we are in?
So if anyone works the word where the heart is changed. Even if they do not know the historical Christ that came into the world couldnāt or wouldnāt they be saved by Christ?
punishment was limited and not excessive
. Johann can we get some help here in explaining that term?
.