"Earning" Heaven?

After posting on Pater15’s thread elsewhere, I said something that he responded to with the following:

Many here (including me) would ask you to explain what you mean by “earning the right to go to heaven.” Salvation is a free gift, so it’s the claim that we somehow earn it that would be problematic.

I referred specifically to the fact that salvation from sin and eternal life are not the same thing, but I do realize that false Calvinistic doctrine has crept into the mainline church, so I will explain. Calvinism treats salvation from sin and eternal life as one and the same thing, when they are not, and this is why they claim that all you need to do in order to make it to the consummation of eternal life in heaven, is to simply believe in Jesus.

Salvation and eternal life are treated in Scripture as two completely different, but intimately related, doctrines. Part of the confusion comes into play because many times Paul uses these terms as metonyms for one another, and so throws people off who do not recognize linguistic genres in Scripture. Furthermore, salvation from sin and eternal life are different in their nature’s and purposes; salvation from sin is a one time, singular historical event in the life of a believer, just like if you were saved from drowning at 16, we do not keep saying you are saved from drowning, we say you are alive.

In direct contradistinction, eternal life in Scripture is portrayed as a conditional state of being in some passages, while in other passages it is covenant terminology for one being in covenant relationship with God (such as John 17:3); and in other passages, eternal life is addressed as making it to heaven where we will have eternal life codified.

This is why one can get saved in the past and still end up in eternal fire when they die, because contrary to false teachings and doctrines, salvation is not for the purpose of taking you to heaven, and heaven is not guaranteed just because one gets saved. This is why John says:

John 3:36*
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever does not obey the Son shall never see that life: because the wrath of God continues to remain upon him.

The purpose of salvation from sin is to qualify us to enter into God’s very presence so that we can engage Him in personal relationship; it is that relationship that takes a man into heaven, not salvation. Salvation from sin is based upon the same laws of atonement that God gave to Moses, the only difference is that Christ is our sacrifice and we do not need to sacrifice an animal every time we sin.

Blessings.

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@BlueDragon I think your thesis creates a false dichotomy that breaks the organic unity of the Gospel. They Are Inseparable. In the New Testament, “being saved” and “inheriting/having eternal life” are used interchangeably to describe the same state of redemption.

In Mark 10:17–26, a rich young man asks, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?” After he walks away, Jesus tells the disciples how hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom. The disciples respond in shock: “Who then can be saved?” Mark records Jesus and the disciples treating “eternal life” and “being saved” as identical concepts.

Romans 5:9–10 links them directly:

“Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.”

Eternal Life is the direct result of Salvation from sin. Salvation is not merely a “transaction” that drops you at the doorway of relationship. According to Romans 6:22–23, deliverance from sin is what yields eternal life:

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I think you use John 3:36 to argue that salvation doesn’t guarantee heaven unless you add works of obedience. However, in Greek, John contrasts “he who believes” (pisteuōn) with “he who does not obey/disbelieves” (apeithōn). The disobedience John speaks of is the refusal to believe/accept the Son. Saving faith and biblical obedience are two sides of the same coin.

Yes, true, living faith inevitably bears the fruit of obedience (James 2:17, 1 John 2:3–4). You cannot separate genuine saving faith from an obedient heart. You claim salvation is a one-time past event that “qualifies us” to try to earn entry to heaven via relationship. Scripture, however, teaches that eternal life begins the moment you are saved. Jesus says in John 5:24:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not a future reward you earn after qualifying.

Be blessed.

Peter

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Can we be happy in heaven if we don’t have peace of mind? So how do we achieve peace of mind? Does Matthew 4:17 give us a clue?:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Part 2…

Yes, true, living faith inevitably bears the fruit of obedience (James 2:17, 1 John 2:3–4).

This is not what Scripture teaches. In Mat. 3:8 and like passages, you are the one commanded to bear fruit (ie. do actions of righteousness, walk in obedience), the verbs are always in the Active voice, meaning that you are the one doing the works. If they just came automatically because you are saved, then they would all be in the Passive voice.

You cannot separate genuine saving faith from an obedient heart.

This is not according to the real world. I have known plenty of people who had genuine salvation experiences, who later fell away from God for one situation or another. They were saved individuals, but later fell away, just like Scripture affirms can happen.

You claim salvation is a one-time past event that “qualifies us” to try to earn entry to heaven via relationship. Scripture, however, teaches that eternal life begins the moment you are saved. Jesus says in John 5:24:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

Yes, indeed…but we cannot interpret covenant Scripture divorced from covenant; it is not the new testament, it is the New Covenant Scriptures. Covenant principles of operation, by God’s ordination, says that you only continue to have what God has given to you as a covenant gift, as long as you continue to abide in that covenant. This completely destroys the false notion of once saved always saved, and that false notion only came about because the Reformers knew nothing about covenant aside from the word itself.

Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not a future reward you earn after qualifying.

Be blessed.

Eternal life is addressed in Scripture as both a present possession and your future reward. You are a man, not a god; you have no parity with God, He makes the rules, not us. Any relationship with God automatically implies obedience on the human part, and as Scripture affirms, if there is no obedience on a man’s part, then there is no eternal life.

I John 5:11-12 tells us that we only have eternal life if we have the Son, but how do we have the Son? I John 3:23-24 tells you: “whoever obeys God’s commandments abides in Him, and He will remain abiding in them.” To have the Son, you must walk in obedience to Him, otherwise you do not have Him in you and you are not in Him. Heb. 5:9 tells you the same thing, as do many other passages. If we ignore or explain away what these passages tell us to our faces, then we are not truth seekers, we are only here to protect out biases, and that always ends badly.

Blessings.

I would say that we have peace of mind as we walk in obedience to God, because Mal. 3:18 still applies today:

“You will again make the distinction between the righteous and the wicked; between those who obey God and those who do not obey God.”

God says there is no peace to the wicked.

Let us continue to strive to walk in obedience to God, and we will have peace of mind.

Blessings!

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I will have to answer in two posts…

@BlueDragon I think your thesis creates a false dichotomy that breaks the organic unity of the Gospel. They Are Inseparable. In the New Testament, “being saved” and “inheriting/having eternal life” are used interchangeably to describe the same state of redemption.

Not at all, as I stated, while salvation from sin and eternal life are used metonymically for one another, that does not mean they are the same thing. As an example, in the sentence, “Your considerations are subordinate to the crown,” the crown is used as a metonym for either the king, or the kingdom, but the crown is not the king or the kingdom. Just so, salvation from sin and eternal life are not the same thing. They are intimately linked, just as being born and living are, but being born and living are not the same thing.

In Mark 10:17–26, a rich young man asks, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?” After he walks away, Jesus tells the disciples how hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom. The disciples respond in shock: “Who then can be saved?” Mark records Jesus and the disciples treating “eternal life” and “being saved” as identical concepts.

Actually, neither Jesus nor the disciple treat them as identical. And you can only see them as such if you read them as identical. The Biblical concept of salvation stems directly from the atonement as given to Moses by God, and salvation has only one purpose, and that purpose is not to take anyone to heaven. Before you can have personal relationship with God, you must have your sins dealt with, no one can have relationship with God (eternal life) if he has not been born again (directly resulting from salvation from sin) first.

Birth – living…salvation (born again) – eternal life. Salvation begins the state of eternal life, just as you continue to live (if you do not die) after being born.

Romans 5:9–10 links them directly:

“Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.”

How so? Justified can mean salvation, sure…but there is no mention directly or indirectly in this text of eternal life. Furthermore, as far as “saved by him from the wrath of God,” when we apply the principles of Biblical interpretation, in particular the Covenant Principle, one who has been saved from the wrath of God only continues to be saved from that wrath as long as he remains abiding in Christ, the living New Covenant of God. If he ceases to remain abiding in Christ, then he is once again a subject of that wrath.

Eternal Life is the direct result of Salvation from sin.

Agreed.

Salvation is not merely a “transaction” that drops you at the doorway of relationship.

Agreed, but that is not what I implied. Salvation is the ticket that gets you through the door into God’s presence, but that fact does not count as engaging Him in relationship. It is like teenagers buying their ticket to the dance, and then standing upon the wall the whole night, failing to engage the opposite sex in dance, which was the purpose for getting the ticket in the first place.

According to Romans 6:22–23, deliverance from sin is what yields eternal life:

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Yes…the gift of God (which is not free, the word free is not in the Greek, nor implied in the text at all) is eternal life “in Christ,” which many people fail to understand (not saying you do, speaking generally). One only has that covenant gift as long as he remains abiding in Christ, if he ceases to abide in Him, then he forfeits all that God makes available to us in Christ. In this case, eternal life.

I think you use John 3:36 to argue that salvation doesn’t guarantee heaven unless you add works of obedience. However, in Greek, John contrasts “he who believes” (pisteuōn) with “he who does not obey/disbelieves” (apeithōn). The disobedience John speaks of is the refusal to believe/accept the Son. Saving faith and biblical obedience are two sides of the same coin.

Nope, according to the Greek and its grammar, apeithon in this text means does not obey because it is in the Dative of person. The text speaks for itself…you can believe in Christ and gain eternal life (covenant relationship), but if you do not practice walking in obedience to Him, then your belief is made moot and void. No obedience, no eternal life; Scripture is replete with passages that all say the same.

Part 2 coming up…

Yes, I think obedience to God brings us peace of mind.

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Salvation, biblically, captures the fullness of the Divine rescue project. It is impossible to divorce the act of God forgiving us of our sins, Christ’s defeat over the powers of sin, death, hell, and the devil, and the reality of eternal life. These are all interconnected realities.

We do not earn heaven, we do not earn eternal life; we inherit eternal life as a result of Christ’s finished work: His righteous life, passion, death, and resurrection. Because eternal life is the life of Jesus Christ, the life He Himself has. We receive the life of Christ as a pure gift, even as He received unto Himself our death. Christ took our death, and gives us His life. That’s what eternal life is. That is why Christ is the firstborn from the dead and firstfruits of the resurrection, He is the resurrection and the life, and whoever trusts in Him shall not die, and even should he die, yet shall he live.

The call of obedience is what the life, abiding in Christ, is shaped lie–by the gift, power, and working of the Holy Spirit molding and shaping and conforming us into the image of God’s Son. God has freely, on account of His only-begotten Son, called us sons by His grace through adoption; and now He is calling us to act like it.

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Jesus knew me, before I knew Him.

When I did come to know Him, I also knew, He gave me the eternal gift of His love.

Yes, they are all interconnected, but not the same thing.

Actually, you do earn eternal life, and we earn it by walking in obedience to God, just as Scripture clearly teaches…

1 John 3:23-24 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. (24) Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

If you do not walk in obedience to God, then you are not in Him, and He is not in you…which means you do not have eternal life, or anything else that God provides for us in Christ…because you will not be in Christ.

Hebrews 5:9*
And being made perfect, He became the source of eternal life to all who obey Him.

And again…

John 3:36*
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever does not obey the Son shall never see that life: because the wrath of God continues to remain upon him.

These all confirm (or rather, are confirmed) by principle 4 of ancient near eastern covenanting, which the New Covenant hails from:

4. The terms, stipulations, promises, blessings, benefits, and gifts of the covenant are only applicable to those who are participants in that specific covenant. If a covenant partner for some reason ceased to keep his covenant obligations, thus terminating his covenant relationship with the other, then he forfeited all covenant rights, terms, stipulations, promises, blessings, benefits, and gifts accorded to him in, and by, the covenant.

For far too long people have interpreted the NT Scriptures as if they are only letters; they are not, they are covenant documents, and they are to be read as covenant documents. When we fail to do this, we misinterpret what they say.

Yes, indeed…“through adoption” and that adoption is through the new covenant in Christ. Unlike Roman adoption that Calvinists consistently claim, Jewish adoption does NOT prevent one from being cut off. Everything from God comes through the new covenant, and they are only given to those who abide in that covenant, and we abide in it through obedience to the Law of Christ.

Blessings

@BlueDragon I appreciate you taking the time to detail your stance, but several of your grammatical and lexical claims do not hold up under closer examination of the Greek text: the grammar of John 3:36 is a present active participle in the Nominative case, not a “Dative of Person.” The text contrasts the one who believes with the one who rejects/refuses to be persuaded by the Son. Furthermore, 1 John 3:23 explicitly defines God’s primary commandment as believing in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23 and ‘Free Gift’. The word translated as gift is chi \acute{\alpha}\rho \iota \sigma \mu \alpha (charisma), derived directly from chi \acute{\alpha}\rho \iota \varsigma (charis — unmerited favor/grace). Paul deliberately contrasts grave{\omega}\psi \acute{\omega}\nu \iota \alpha (opsōnia — wages you earn through labor) with chi \acute{\alpha}\rho \iota \sigma \mu \alpha (an unmerited gift of grace). To claim that ‘free’ is not implied in charisma misses the core distinction Paul is making between earned wages and divine grace.

Active verbs vs. divine source: The use of the Active Voice in commands to bear fruit (e.g., Matthew 3:8) simply identifies the subject acting; it does not mean the action is fueled by autonomous human effort. Scripture consistently teaches that active human obedience is the fruit produced by God working in the believer (Philippians 2:12–13, John 15:5). In John 17:3, Jesus defines eternal life not as a future reward earned after passing a probationary period, but as knowing the Father and the Son right now. According to John 5:24, the believer already possesses eternal life and has already passed from death to life.

Peter

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Part 2…

Scripture consistently teaches that active human obedience is the fruit produced by God working in the believer (Philippians 2:12–13, John 15:5).

Wrong again, Scripture does no such thing. And where in John 15:5 do you get that God works obedience in the believer? It says no such thing. Jesus says very clearly that if you do not abide in Him, you will not be able to do anything…perhaps you fail to understand covenant and how it works. Jesus is the living New Covenant of God (Isa. 42:6, 49:8), what He says is covenant, but more than that here, if one is not in Christ then he does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit so as to be able to produce spiritual fruit, whether it is witnessing and bringing in the fruit of souls, or whether it is bearing the fruit of the Spirit. If you are not in Christ, then you cannot bear any spiritual fruit because you will not have the Spirit dwelling within you, and that is the point of what He says here. He does NOT say nor imply that He causes you to bear fruit.

Then, with Phi. 2:13, it helps if we do not have a translation that directly contradicts other Scripture (the Contradiction principle, in case you forgot). Remember that in some cases, in order to get the intended meaning across in English, we have to move the word order around – any Greek scholar will also tell you the same thing. A better rendering of the Greek here reads:

Phil. 2:13* Because God is also producing in you the desire and ability to do what pleases Him.

Nothing in the Greek implies directly or indirectly that God is causing believers to do what pleases Him, that is read into the text and is, therefore, eisegesis. God working in the believer by His Spirit to do an action is NOT the same as causing the believer to do it. Scripture tells us succinctly that we can resist and quench the Spirit, which negates your implied interpretation here.

In John 17:3, Jesus defines eternal life not as a future reward earned after passing a probationary period, but as knowing the Father and the Son right now.

Yes…and as I stated earlier, eternal life is addressed in different passages as a current possession, a future consummation, and a technical covenant term for being in covenant relationship with God, and John 17:3 is one of those in that last category.

According to John 5:24, the believer already possesses eternal life and has already passed from death to life.

Yes…but again, you repeatedly ignore ( or do not know about) the covenant principle. You can have eternal life right now, and have passed from death to life, as long as you are in Christ…and then two months from now you can stop practicing walking in obedience to God in Christ, and get cut off from Christ, by your own hand letting go of covenant relationship, get kicked out of the covenant (because only the obedient remain abiding in it) and then be right back on the path to death again. This is what Scripture teaches, and what Calvinism directly ignores and tries to explain away…which is why many consider it just another false ‘christian’ religion like Mormonism.

When we interpret Scripture outside of covenant principles, then we will always come to false interpretations. Covenant gives boundaries for interpretation of itself, just like modern day contracts do. This is the single most violated principle of Biblical hermeneutics in Calvinist doctrines, they can only exist by violating God’s clearly mandated covenant principles.

Blessings.

I am bound to the dichotomy of Law and Gospel.

Obedience is not how a person attains something from God. Obedience is not vertical, but horizontal. It is not about a righteousness Coram Deo, before God; but a righteousness Coram Mundus or Coram Hominibus–it is the righteousness before the world of our fellow human beings.

To put it another way, it is not God who needs our good works. It’s our neighbor who needs our good works.

As it pertains to all things, before God, the movement is always vertical, but it is unilateral: It is always God coming down. God always comes down, we never go up.

My hope in the resurrection and the life of the Age to Come exists solely, and entirely, as the gift of God which is found exclusively in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead.

If, on Judgment, I were to be measured solely by my works, I would indeed be found deserving of Hell (and rightly, justly so). Indeed, I shall be judged by my works, but I shall not pass through judgment to Life by my works. But by Grace Alone shall I endure the fire of God’s righteous judgment, and discover the mercy of God which holds me and keeps me, for Christ’s sake.

It is far too dangerous to seek to boast of my own efforts when it comes to the Throne of Judgment which I must endure. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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1 John 2:19 - “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

First off @BlueDragon I really appreciate the “toned down” rhetoric. I had to learn a similar lesson when I first came to this forum, having been trained by my experience with debating atheists.

I think for yourself and for the hardline Calvinist view, as well as every person, we all need to have God’s viewpoint of what “faith” actually is. And I’m not claiming myself as the oracle. I’m offering a viewpoint for discussion.

The Calvinist might say that faith is an irresistible imputation from God. It’s His choice with no availability of changing it on our part. You seem to be saying that it’s whimsical, and might be abandoned or taken up at the drop of a hat.

Phil 2:13 - “For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.”

This is His grace. We are free to choose our beliefs. God, through His grace, gives us the desire to choose to believe Him, and the power to maintain that belief in the face of adversity. Faith is built through our active pursuit, the reinforcement of our beliefs, the hearing of the truth, and grace by the Spirit. He is able to keep us.

Faith that does not persevere was never faith. Someone might have given a mental assent at some point, like the different soils in the parable of the sower, who showed brief promise of fertile ground when the seed was cast, but fell away when competing belief options killed their opportunity for faith.

To say that a person can experience salvation and still go to hell seems incoherent on its face. The word “salvation” has a specific meaning.

I don’t think God forces our belief, nor do I think He deserts us when doubts or confusions arise. He knows our hearts, and seals us, unbreakable, to the day of redemption.

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Scripture demonstrates by the Active voice that God does not cause a person to believe for salvation, it demonstrates that the person chooses to believe. Scripture does not teach that God gives people faith (outside of I Cor. 12:9 which is a gift of the Spirit of supernatural faith, to one who is already saved); saving faith is demonstrated in Scripture to be a choice.

As for faith that does not persevere never being true faith, Scripture does not bear such an idea out either, and neither does the real world. I knew people who had genuine salvation experiences, had a gift of the Spirit, healed people, etc., who then experienced heartbreaking circumstances that caused them to blame God and walk away from Him. They were saved, their faith was true faith. I believe that anyone who claims such as this, has a very limited life experience that has never been with people that fell. Just because I may not have ever seen anyone fall, does not mean it does not happen - it only means that my life experiences do not include such an event, directly or indirectly. In any case, the real world demonstrates otherwise. Scripture affirms that a saved person can fall away, that is what Heb. 10:26-29 (and others) is all about.

There is no doctrine of believe and that is all it takes. Calvinism is wrong there as well, because while there is no command that we must do in order to get saved, God has set prerequisites to get saved. One must choose to believe, then he must choose to repent from living a life of practicing sinful behavior - God will not forgive anyone who does not repent, because there is no reason to. Then he must believe that Jesus is Yahweh in the flesh, and receive water baptism into Christ, where salvation dwells. Now, because of false doctrine over the last 600 years since the Reformation, God has amended the covenant to accept those who come to Him in faith and repentance and save them, otherwise no one would have been saved until the full gospel was restored to the church in the late 1890’s.

I myself was saved at 16, and did not learn and understand that baptism was required to enter into Christ until my early 40’s, and then I received baptism. Having said all that, this thread is about making it to heaven - no one gets there, according to Scripture, unless they practice walking in obedience to God…

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of My Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and do many mighty works in Your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Romans 2:6-7

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in doing good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life;

I John 5:11-12*

And this is the testimony, that God has made eternal life available to us: and this life abides in His Son. Whoever has the Son at the same time has life; if someone does not have the Son of God, then he does not have life.

WITH

I John 3:23-24*

And this is His commandments of the New Covenant, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and that we love one another, according as He has given us commandment to do; those who obey His commandments remain abiding in Him, and He will remain abiding in him; by this we know that He remains abiding in us, by reason of the Spirit of which He has given to us.

John 8:51

Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My Word, he will never see death.

I John 2:10

Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no behavior that will take him into ruin.

WITH

I John 1:7

But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Romans 6:16, 19, 22

Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?…I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification….But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

I John 2:17

And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

I John 3:14

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

Hebrews 5:9*
And being made perfect, He became the source of eternal life to all who obey Him.

Scripture is very clear, and these are not all that I could have posted.

Blessings

I am bound to the dichotomy of Law and Gospel.

Then you should free yourself from that false ideology, because the gospel contains law, it is just a different law.

Obedience is not how a person attains something from God.

Quite the contrary, what you just verbalized is a false doctrine. I think you need to read the Bible again from cover to cover, because obedience to God is the ONLY way, with faith, that anyone receives anything from God.

Obedience is not vertical, but horizontal.

Pure nonsense, and not Biblical in the least bit. Sounds New Age to me…

It is not about a righteousness Coram Deo, before God; but a righteousness Coram Mundus or Coram Hominibus–it is the righteousness before the world of our fellow human beings.

To put it another way, it is not God who needs our good works. It’s our neighbor who needs our good works.

Sounds good, but so does wanton sex. God does not need our obedience, yet He commands it because you do NOT have parity with Him. You are not His equal. You are His created creature, and that divine-creature relationship always has in purview obedience. He commands you to obey, and apparently you do not like that, so you rebel and teach others to do the same; reminds me of a verse…

Romans 1:32*

who, knowing the decree of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do those things themselves, but also work to cause others to practice them, also taking pleasure in the fact that others are practicing them.

As it pertains to all things, before God, the movement is always vertical, but it is unilateral: It is always God coming down. God always comes down, we never go up.

Sounds very philosophical…from a human point of view, that directly contradicts what God say sin His Word. So then, what do you do with these?

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

And every other passage that tells you that if you do not walk in obedience to God, then you will end up in eternal fire? And remember, your philosophical mumbo-jumbo does not cancel out the Word of God.

My hope in the resurrection and the life of the Age to Come exists solely, and entirely, as the gift of God which is found exclusively in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead.

Ah, more false carnal wisdom of men that directly contradicts Scripture. The work of Christ upon the cross, when applied to your life, will save you from your sins – that’s it, nothing more, because that is what the atonement does. It does not take you to heaven, that is not its purpose; if you do not understand the atonement, then you need to go back and re-read Exodus and Leviticus. The atonement in Christ is based upon the same rules God gave to Moses, the only difference is that today we do not need to sacrifice an animal every time we sin. And the “person” of Christ does not do anything for your making it to heaven, that is more false doctrine that Scripture does not support.

Scripture is clear: obey, or suffer the consequences.

If, on Judgment, I were to be measured solely by my works, I would indeed be found deserving of Hell (and rightly, justly so).

Again, not trying to be insulting, but you demonstrate that you do not understand Scripture. Your obedience keeps you in Christ, it has nothing directly to do with judgment. If you are in Christ when you leave this world, then you are good to go…but if you are not in Christ when you die, then your false beliefs have screwed you over…and now you will have no excuses, because you have been given the truth.

Indeed, I shall be judged by my works, but I shall not pass through judgment to Life by my works. But by Grace Alone shall I endure the fire of God’s righteous judgment, and discover the mercy of God which holds me and keeps me, for Christ’s sake.

Ah…another false doctrine you have swallowed. What passage of Scripture do you allege that says God keeps you? Evidently you know little to nothing of covenant, let me help you; all that God makes available to us – including mercy and grace – are bound up within the New Covenant in Christ. You keep yourself abiding in that covenant by walking in obedience to the covenant law of the New Covenant, which is found in I John 3:23-24; what scholars and theologians call the Law of Christ (because that is what Scripture calls it).

If you are not practicing walking in obedience to God in Christ, then you are no longer in Christ, you are no longer abiding in the New Covenant; therefore, saving grace and mercy are no longer yours. Any interpretation of the NT outside of covenant, leads to false doctrines, false teachings, false ideologies…and eternal fire.

It is far too dangerous to seek to boast of my own efforts when it comes to the Throne of Judgment which I must endure. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

I am afraid that claiming mercy on judgment day will not work; God has made it clear, we are either in Christ, the Ark of Safety, or we pretend and are on our own, standing before God not in Christ, but in our own wicked sin.

And, BTW, Scripture never calls a saint sinners, that is another false doctrine in Calvinism. A sinner is one who practices sin, and no one who practices sin, according to Scripture, has eternal life.

Blessings.

Yes…but there are two kinds of God’s love in Scripture: common love, meaning that He loves all people, even sinners; and familial love, which is only given to those who abide in covenant relationship with Him.

If we are not abiding in the New Covenant of God in Christ, then we do not have that saving love.

Blessings.

This seems contradictory.

John 3:16?

What the heck?

I think your biggest challenge in earning your salvation will be to not fall away yourself. I’ve seen many “give up” their song and dance that they perform to try to please God, because that’s not what God wants from us. It’s an affront to Him. You are saying to God that the blood of Jesus isn’t enough to save you. You have to do your little pre-requisite works.

And they never give you any peace. You are relentlessly on edge, never knowing if you’ve done enough. A human can’t take that in the long run. Especially since you’re such a dismal wretched failure at keeping yourself from sinning.

No my friend, His blood is enough. Believe it. Let your faith grow in it, unsullied, unadulterated, unmixed. Christ alone. That’s the gospel.

Maybe you should bump the thread “What is the gospel?” brother @Pater15?

Oh well, I’ve tried.

Shalom.

J.

Hey @Johann , not sure what you mean - I looked for a thread of that title, and didn’t find one. You mean start a thread? Can do that! But not this evening - my better half is soon to be home from a trip, so…..I have to get supper on the table ha ha.