I’m starting this Topic because it started in the Lobby and seems like it may be something more people will like to talk about.
rstrats
5:35 am
Will that still be true when He casts us into the lake of fire?
PeterC
5:46 am
Well, since He doesn’t send anyone to the lake of fire, we can avoid it by simply accepting His substitute for ourselves. The only people who end up there are those who choose to go.
Johann
11:00 am
Yes, He does, and Messiah @rstrats
The passive “was thrown” is a divine judicial passive, indicating God as the acting agent who consigns to the lake of fire.
These two together give you the explicit biblical grounding:
Christ pronounces and enacts the judgment
God executes the final sentencing
So yes, Scripture is clear that the sending is not merely self-chosen, but a real act of divine judgment grounded in justice.
PeterC
3:07 am @Johann, while this isn’t the place for debate, God doesn’t want anyone to go to hell, except those He created it for. We go because we choose to, and He complies with our wish.
Johann
3:04 pm
Just to be clear, I don’t use the lobby for debating Peter.
Saying “we go because we choose to, and He complies with our wish” is too simplistic and can sound as if God is passive or merely ratifying human preference. Scripture presents judgment as both just and judicial, not merely permissive.
And now we are all caught up. So, do you think that it is more accurate to say God sends people to hell, or does the word specifically say we choose to go?
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’ - ESV ↩︎
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire - ESV ↩︎
Here is how I read it. First, Hell was never intended for man. Listen to this teaching from Jesus Himself. Matthew 25:31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry, and you gave me food, I was thirsty, and you gave me drink, I was a stranger, and you welcomed me, I was naked, and you clothed me, I was sick, and you visited me, I was in prison, and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger, and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
So there are two Resurrections. One into Glory, and one into Condemnation. We see this in John 5:28-29 again.
“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
However, let’s look into what Jesus actually says. ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."
What does Jesus say was prepared for us from the Foundation of the World? “The Kingdom.”
Then read this.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
He said He prepared the Kingdom for the Saved and Eternal Fire for the Sinners. No. Actually, He said, the Eternal Fire, AKA Hell, was created for who? “The Devil and his Angels.” God is not some old Man, sitting on a Throne, waiting to see how many He can cast into Hell. He is not sitting there waiting for you to slip up so He can punish you. He never intended you to go to Hell at all. He created Hell for one purpose. “The Devil and his Angels.”
He never intended man to go there. He wants as many to be saved from that as possible.
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2nd Peter 3:9
Look how Romans 8:33-34 is worded.
"Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died–more than that, who was raised–who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Who is it that condemns? Then here in John 3:18
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
We are already condemned because we did not believe, or accept God’s solution to hell. The Word also tells us that we will be judged, “Everyone according to their own actions.” So in light of all this, I say, God condemns no one; rather wants all to be saved; however, sadly, we choose our future.
Peter
The Bible says that God created hell for Satan and the wicked angels who rebelled in heaven, but there are people in hell also (Matthew 25:41). Both angelic beings and human beings are in hell for the same reason: sin (Romans 6:23).
Because God is completely righteous and morally perfect (Psalm 18:30), He always does what is right—there is no “darkness” in God, not the smallest speck of imperfection (1 John 1:5). God Himself is the standard for what is right, good, and moral. If it were not for God being the standard of moral perfection, created beings would have nothing to measure themselves against. The Bible teaches that anything falling short of God’s perfection is sinful, and every human being who has ever lived, since Adam’s fall, has committed sin (Romans 3:23). Because Adam sinned, the entire human race now has a sinful nature (Romans 5:12). But people do not go to hell because of Adam’s sin; they go to hell because of their own sin, which they freely choose (James 1:13–16).
God is infinitely glorious and worthy of obedience, and all sins are fundamentally against God. For this reason, the only just punishment for sin-a violation of infinite glory-must also be infinite (see Matthew 25:46).
All who commit sin deserve to go to hell because they have failed to meet God’s righteous standard; they have broken His law of moral perfection. If God did not send people to hell for breaking His laws, He would not be just (Psalm 7:11). An analogy is what happens in a court of law between a judge and a lawbreaker. A just judge will sentence the guilty according to the law. A judge who ignores the law, overlooks the crime, and releases the guilty would not be a just judge (Deuteronomy 32:4). Corrupt or incompetent judges contribute to a disordered society: “Justice is driven back, and righteousness stands at a distance; truth has stumbled in the streets, honesty cannot enter” (Isaiah 59:14). If God failed to execute justice, we would have an anarchic universe.
As the Son of Man, Jesus has the authority to judge the world (John 5:27). Jesus Himself is the standard of holiness and the only one worthy of executing judgment. He spoke of the necessity of heeding His message: “All who reject me and my message will be judged on the day of judgment by the truth I have spoken” (John 12:48, NLT).
The good news is that God has mercy on the sinner. He made a way for us to avoid the punishment of hell. Salvation is God’s gift to those who trust in the atoning work of His Son, Jesus Christ (Romans 5:9). Believers are forgiven, and the penalty of their sin has been placed upon Christ on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). The sacrifice of Christ maintains God’s justice—the sin is punished—and at the same time extends His mercy and grace to all who believe.
Scripture teaches that man supplies the guilt, but Christ, who died and was raised, is the one who renders the verdict and sends both groups to their eternal destinies.
This word occurs about 48 x
Meaning
judgment (human or divine), justice, the concept of determining the correctness of a matter;
negatively, punishment, condemnation
primarily distinction;
discrimination;
judgment, decision, award, Jn. 5:30; 7:24; 8:16;
a judicial sentence, Jn. 3:19; Jas. 2:13;
an adverse sentence, Mt. 23:33; Mk. 3:29;
judgment, judicial process, trial, Mt. 10:15; Jn. 5:24; 12:31; 16:8;
judgment, administration of justice, Jn. 5:22, 27;
in NT a court of justice, tribunal, Mt. 5:21, 22;
an impeachment, 2Pet. 2:11; Jude 9;
from the Hebrew, justice, equity, Mt. 12:18, 20; 23:23; Lk. 11:42
Related words
judgment (krima - κρίμα)
judge (kritēs - κριτής)
In light of these texts, it is more precise to say that God, and Yeshua as the appointed Judge, is righteous in His judgment and will indeed pronounce sentence upon the unrighteous, sending those who persist in unbelief and lawlessness into eternal punishment.
Your statement “God condemns no one” is contradicted by explicit judicial language where God is the acting subject.
Romans 8:3 “For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh.”[1]
Greek focus: κατέκρινε
Verb: κατέκρινε, aorist active indicative, 3rd singular from κατακρίνω
Force: God is explicitly the subject who “condemned,” showing that condemnation is a divine judicial act, not something absent from His role.
Now move to final judgment, where the agency becomes even clearer.
Revelation 20:12
“And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened… And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.”[2]
“Were judged” is a divine passive, with God as the implied judge, reinforced by the throne imagery.
Then bring in Christ’s own words, which remove any ambiguity.
John 5:22 “For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,”[3]
Acts 17:31 “because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed…”[4]
Greek focus: μέλλει κρίνειν
Verb: κρίνειν, present active infinitive from κρίνω
Here the judging is explicitly active, and God is the subject, carried out through the appointed Man, that is, Christ.
The passive “were judged” does not mean no one judges them, it means they are the recipients of judgment, and in the context of Revelation 20, God on the throne is the implied agent, so Scripture presents judgment not as self-condemnation but as a real judicial act carried out by God through Christ.
This does not eliminate judgment, it locates it in the Son, so saying “God condemns no one” undermines Trinitarian grammar, because the Son executes the Father’s judgment.
Word analysis
κρίνω (krinō) to judge (G2919) (Verb Aorist Passive Indicative 3rd Plural )
This word occurs about 113 x
Meaning
to decide, consider, as preferring one thing over another or determining the correctness of a matter;
by extension: to judge, pass judgment on, condemn in a legal sense
pluperfect, κεκρίκει (3 singular), primarily to separate;
to make a distinction between;
to exercise judgment upon;
to estimate, Rom. 14:5;
to judge, to assume censorial power over, to call to account, Mt. 7:1; Lk. 6:37; Rom. 2:1, 3; 14:3, 4, 10, 13; Col. 2:16 Jas. 4:11, 12;
to bring under question, Rom. 14:22;
to judge judicially, to try as a judge, Jn. 18:31;
to bring to trial, Acts 13:27;
to sentence, Lk. 19:22; Jn. 7:51;
to resolve on, decree, Acts 16:4 Rev. 16:5;
absolute to decide, determine, resolve, Acts 3:13; 15:19;
27:1;
to deem, Acts 13:46;
to form a judgment, pass judgment, Jn. 8:15;
passive to be brought to trial, Acts 25:10, 20; Rom. 3:4;
to be brought to account, to incur arraignment, be arraigned, 1Cor. 10:29;
middle to go to law, litigate, Mt. 5:40;
in NT to judge, to visit judicially, Acts 7:7 1Cor. 11:31, 32; 1Pet. 4:6;
to judge, to right, to vindicate, Heb. 10:30;
to administer government over, to govern, Mt. 19:28; Lk. 22:30
Revelation 20:12
“And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.”[1]
Acts 17:31
“because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”[2]
John 5:22
“For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,”[3]
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”[4]
This support the Bible’s point that judgment is something God, through Christ, actively executes, not something that happens without a judge.
J.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. - ESV
because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead. - ESV
θάνατος, the death owed to sin
κατάκριμα, the judicial sentence of guilt
κατάρα, the covenantal curse under the law
And the verb ἀνήνεγκεν in 1 Peter 2:24 tells you how Christ deals with it:
He bears it substitutionarily, as a sacrificial offering, in His body on the cross, and the resurrection then vindicates that the penalty has been exhausted and judgment satisfied.
1Pe 2:24 Moshiach, who himself NASAH (bore, carried away, Isa 53:4, 12) ES PEYSHA’EINU (our transgressions, our sins YESHAYAH 53:5,8,12) in geviyyato [BERESHIS 47:18; YESHAYAH 53:5] on HAETZ [DEVARIM 21:23] that, having become niftarim (deceased ones) to chattoteinu, we might become Kol Chai (all living) to Tzidkanut (Righteousness); UVACHAVURATO NIRPA LANU ("by whose wounds you were healed” YESHAYAH 53:5).
OJB.
ος τας αμαρτιας ημων αυτος ανηνεγκεν εν τω σωματι αυτου επι το ξυλον ινα ταις αμαρτιαις απογενομενοι τη δικαιοσυνη ζησωμεν ου τω μωλωπι αυτου ιαθητε
1Pe 2:24 He personally carried our sins in His body on the cross [willingly offering Himself on it, as on an altar of sacrifice], so that we might die to sin [becoming immune from the penalty and power of sin] and live for righteousness; for by His wounds you [who believe] have been healed.
AMP
“in His body on the cross”
Although there is no specific Gnostic element connected to 1 Peter (an early Christian/Greek philosophy asserted that Jesus was not truly human, cf. Col.; 1 Tim.; 1 John). This text is another powerful affirmation of the true humanity and physical death of Jesus of Nazareth (cf. Col_1:22).
The phrase “on the cross” may have a connection to Deu_21:23, where anyone who was impaled on a stake (i.e., tree) instead of being properly buried was cursed by God. By Jesus’ day the rabbis had interpreted this as including Roman crucifixion. Jesus was accused of blasphemy which, according to the Mosaic Law, demanded stoning.
Why then did the Jewish leaders want Him crucified, which required Roman approval and ceremonial defilement for them before the Passover? Some have said they did this because the Jews did not have the authority under Roman law to put someone to death, but what about Stephen in Acts 7?
I think they wanted Jesus crucified to suggest that this messianic pretender was cursed by God! But this is exactly what happened. Jesus became the curse for us (cf. Gal_3:13). The OT itself had become a curse (cf. Col_2:14). It states that the soul that sins must die (cf. 2Ki_14:6; Eze_18:4; Eze_18:20). But all humans have sinned (cf. Rom_3:9-18; Rom_3:23; Gal_3:22). Therefore, all deserve to die and were under its death penalty. Jesus the sinless Lamb of God (Joh_1:29) bore the sin of the entire fallen world (cf. Rom_5:12-21)
The “penalty” is not a single lexical item but the complex of death, condemnation, and curse that sin incurs, and Christ, through the aorist act ἀνήνεγκεν, bears that liability in a substitutionary, sacrificial sense, removing the κατάκριμα for those united to Him through His death and resurrection.
Some Key Texts 11 12
The idea of God as an active judge who inflicts vengeance upon the guilty is something one can find throughout the Bible. Below are a few key New Testament texts that I think really drive the point home for our purposes here.
Matthew 25:41
Then He [Jesus] will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.
This passage is usually appealed to as a prooftext for eternal conscious hell because it describes hell as “eternal fire.” The Bible’s use of this phrase and why it does not indicate a fire burning people forever has been addressed here previously. 13 14
But this passage is noteworthy for our purposes because it features Jesus himself, who is supposed to be the nice one, the one who is supposed to be the truest revelation of God and therefore show us that God is actually loving and merciful (as if that wasn’t already shown in the Old Testament) – and yet he is condemning people to hellfire. He does not passively watch it happen as they choose to go away from him. He actively sends away – and into the fire. 15
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (HCSB)
It is a clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to reward with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.
This passage is often appealed to in order to show that hell is separation from God, although even that is questionable as it depends on certain renderings of ambiguous Greek. 16 17
But rather than being a passive separation, where God just graciously says to those who don’t want to know him “thy will be done,” instead it describes Jesus himself coming in flames and fury and delivering vengeance unto the wicked (Verse 8). Paul even makes sure to emphasize that Christ pays back those who persecuted his people affliction for affliction (Verse 6). God is shown here as an avenger, not just a passive respecter of free choice.
Romans 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
Here we again see the Bible embracing God’s vengeance. He avenges. He repays. He doesn’t merely cut himself off from those who want to be apart from him anyway.
Matthew 13:40-42
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
After telling a parable where wheat and weeds are harvested and the weeds are burned up, Jesus explains the meaning to his disciples.
It’s hard to say that God doesn’t send people to hell when his agents, the angels, at Christ’s command take the wicked and throw them into the fires of hell like throwing away refuse (a form of refuse that quickly burns up to ashes, for good measure). 18 Keep in mind that I am not describing the parable, but Jesus’s explanation of the parable. Other than maybe speaking of hellfire in a slightly figurative manner as “the furnace of fire” (to play off the furnace in the parable), this is a straightforward clarification of a symbolic story.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Here, hell is not mentioned explicitly. However, Jesus does command these people to depart from him at judgment. And yet, rather than embracing the fact that the God they hate has sent them away, they are trying to plead their case and are denied.
It sounds a lot like Jesus is, again, sending them to hell (and for good measure, they are not getting the outcome they wanted).
Revelation 14:9-11
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
This is, of course, a major prooftext for eternal conscious hell – which is the main reason I brought it up – and we have addressed it here previously as well. 19
I’ve already responded @PeterC , but I want to be cautious going further. In a previous exchange my strong engagement with Scripture was viewed as overly combative by @JennyLynne, and I was suspended, with the understanding that another issue could lead to a permanent ban.
I do believe I’ve addressed and corrected the argument here, but given that context, I think it’s best for me to step back from further discussion on this thread. As you are well aware of.
