I’m a bit hesitant to respond to @TCC. I value this forum and I’ve already been suspended once, so I’m aware that not everyone will agree with how things are said, and someone may take offense. It does feel like there’s always that possibility hanging over me.
Shalom brother.
J.
Where is your main forum @TCC?
J.
Im confused because i did not know we would resume our bodies in heaven.If you would be kind enough to explain that to me a little more i would appreciate it. Just remember to “dumb it down” for me please if you dont mind @TCC @Gospel and you believe that we will be spirits in heaven? am i correct? To be honest i have always thought we would be in spirit in heaven. I have actually have been told before that we wont even recognize our loved ones because everyone will look different. Not sure who told me that before though
Here @paulhinkle
Philippians 3:20–21: But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
1 Corinthians 15:42–44: So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:52–53: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
Romans 8:23: And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
1 John 3:2: Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
Job 19:25–27: For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
Luke 24:39: See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.
J.
I feel like this is saying that we are raised in spirit? If you have sown a seed you have planted it (put it in the grown) aka buried, then we raise in spiritual body. Not as just as a puff of smoke but as a spirt of ourselves with our own shape and size but not with flesh.
and again here it sounds like we dont know what will become of us because we have not seen it yet."what we will be has not yet appeared’ And God is not human with human flesh and it says “but we know that when he appears we shall be like him”
Now this one sound like even after death i will have my flesh
@Johann this is why im confused
and this one sounds like it is about jesus rising from the dead with human flesh while still on earth not in heaven.
Respond in the morning when you wake up goodnight my friend and brother in christ
At John 6:57 Jesus tells us that his Father sent him to us and he lives because of his Father. No duality or hypostatic union is necessary for Jesus to be real. He looked to his heavenly father, not to his divine nature. This further demonstrates that he was divested of that. But is there anything we can compare this too? Yes:
In the Bible, there are many examples of spirit creatures assuming human form. While some were visionary, others were materializations (see above). Hence, they lived, not as men, but as spirits—as divine beings. Therefore, they could discard their material bodies at will and still be alive. Jesus, on the other hand, was not a materialization. He was born from a woman, from his virgin mother Mary. Therefore, he was not able to dematerialize or discard his body.
The difference between a materialized spirit and the born Jesus is significant, and cannot be stressed enough. Consider:
That would severely affect how you would view a test or threat against your physical body. But Jesus could fully “sympathize with our weaknesses” as he was in danger of physical injury, pain, and fatigue. (At John 8:59, Jesus hid himself from physical injury and pain.
Concerning Titus 2:13, some translations reads: “the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” (NE, TEV, JB.) However the NWT reads: “the glorious manifestation of the great God and of the Savior Christ Jesus.”
So which translation agrees with Titus 1:4?
Although the Scriptures also refer to God as being a Savior, this text clearly differentiates between him and Christ Jesus, the one through whom God provides salvation. Henry Alford, in The Greek Testament, states: “I would submit that a rendering that clearly differentiates God and Christ, at Titus 2:13, satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s way of writing.”—(Boston, 1877), Vol. III, p. 421.
Catholic Public Domain Version
looking forward to the blessed hope and the advent of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ.
New American Bible
as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ,
Mace New Testament
in expectation of that desirable happiness, the glorious appearance of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ,
Pulpit Commentary:
“The whole sentence will then stand thus: Looking for the blessed hope, and for the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, etc. The great God (τοῦ μεγάλου); not elsewhere in the New Testament (except in the T.R. of Revelation 19:17), but familiar to us from Psalm 95:3, “The Lord is a great God,” and elsewhere, KS Deuteronomy 10:17; Deuteronomy 7:21; Psalm 77:14, etc.”
Paul describes the Father as the one God in 1 Corinthians 8:6, where he writes,
“Yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.”
In this verse, Paul has described two persons: the Father and His Son Jesus. But did you notice that Paul wrote it in such a way that Jesus is different from the one God?
Paul used the word God as the description for the Father and the word Lord to identify Jesus. So Paul has clearly stated that the one God for Christians is only the Father.
If Paul wanted to include Jesus in the identity of the one true God, he could have said, “Yet for us there is one God, the Father and the Son.” Rather, Paul deliberately designated the Father as God and Jesus as Lord.
I advise all Christians to base their theology on the Word of God alone under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and believe that the Father alone is the one true God, because that’s what our Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles taught.
I leave you now with the following words of the Apostle Paul in Galatians 3:20, as translated in the classic edition of the Amplified Bible: “God is only one person.”
Thanks for reading, and God bless you in the name of Jesus.
God removed Jesus’ body. Why did God do this? It fulfilled what had been written in the Bible. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) Thus Jehovah saw fit to remove Jesus’ body, even as he had done before with Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Also, if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus’ disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things.
Back in the spirit realm, Jesus was now ontologically spirit, not human. Thus, when he appeared before his apostles as a resurrected being at Luke 24:36-43, he was now a materialization like angels had done prior.
Jesus even appeared different in his post-resurrection body, as seen in the accounts at Luke 24:16 and John 20:14, where Cleopas, his friend, and Mary Magdalene did not recognize him at first, but only after hearing him speak with idiosyncratic identifying mannerisms (Luke 24:30, 31; John 20:16, 18). Additionally, Mark 16:12 (regardless of its manuscript authority) states that Jesus “appeared in another form [ἑτέρᾳ μορφῇ; hetera morphe ] to two of them [Cleopas and his friend] walking along,” which is apparently explaining why they did not recognize Jesus immediately. This demonstrates that Jesus had sacrificed his body (Hebrews 10:10), and had not taken it back, which the author of Mark 16:12 evidently understood. Thus, it becomes rather obvious (to thinking persons) that Jesus’ sacrificed body was simply no longer in existence, as his tomb was empty by divine providence.—Mark 16:5, 6; John 20:3-9.
Indeed, he even had to inform them that he was not appearing as a spiritual manifestation, but as a material manifestation. As John describes, Jesus appeared—materialized—in a locked room on two separate occasions , the second for the benefit of Thomas, complete with his stigmata to drive the point home that he was resurrected. (John 20:19, 26, 27, 29)
He did not unlock and re-lock the doors undetected, and then quietly and stealthily sneak in among them, or temporarily blind their eyes as a deceiver, but he simply appeared in the room and in their midst both times. This proves he was materializing among them. Denying this point betrays a lack of responsible focus, is ridiculously stubborn, and is a rank absurdity.
The NET Bible offers an enlightening footnote on John 20:19. It states that while the Greek text may literally say “the doors were shut,” “‘locked’ conveys a more appropriate idea for the modern English reader.” Additionally, it acknowledges that “it is possible … that he simply appeared in the middle of the room without passing through the doors at all. The point the author makes here is simply that the closed doors were no obstacle at all to the resurrected Jesus.” (It also allows for Jesus silently unlocking the doors or them silently opening by divine intervention, but that would mean Jesus snuck “tiptoe” undetected into their midst, which is conceptually unacceptable and, frankly, laughable.)
Regarding his stigmata, it is interesting and perhaps even noteworthy that his forehead thorn wounds (Matthew 27:29-31; Mark 15:17-19; John 19:2-5) that would have been in plain sight went unnoticed. Surely those deep gashes would have been recorded if they were there. Perhaps this is due to him being discrete with his stigmata and purposefully not displaying his forehead wounds. (His feet wounds also were left unmentioned, accept at Luke 24:39, 40, but this may be due to Jesus keeping his sandals on.) Thus it appears he had control over them and therefore was not appearing with his executed body that he sacrificed.—Hebrews 10:10.
In a dynamic demonstration that he was living as a spirit, he ascended to the sky, where a cloud obscured him from view. (Acts 1:9) This was when he discarded his materialized body for the last time.[6]
The encyclopedic reference Insight on the Scriptures has an outstanding article titled “Ascension.” Regarding Jesus’ ascension, and what happened to his materialized body, it states:
While Jesus began his ascent in a physical form, thus being visible to his watching disciples, there is no basis for assuming that he continued to retain a material form after the cloud interposed itself. The apostle Peter states that Jesus died in the flesh but was resurrected “in the spirit.” (1Pe 3:18) Paul declares the rule that “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1Co 15:50; compare also Jesus’ statement at Joh 12:23, 24 with 1Co 15:35-45.) Paul likens Jesus’ ascent to God’s presence in the heavens to the entry of the high priest into the Most Holy compartment of the tabernacle on the Day of Atonement and specifies that on such occasion the high priest carried only the blood (not the flesh) of the sacrificial victims. (Heb 9:7, 11, 12, 24-26) Paul then compares the curtain, which separated the first compartment from the Most Holy compartment, to Christ’s flesh. The high priest in passing into the Most Holy, into God’s typical presence, did not carry the curtain with him but passed through that barrier and beyond it, so that it was behind him. Thus, Paul states that “we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh.”—Heb 9:3, 24; 10:10, 19, 20; compare Joh 6:51; Heb 6:19, 20.
Thus, while Jesus had already completed his passage “through the curtain” at his resurrection into the transcendent spirit realm before God, Jesus discarded his materialized body for the final time at his ascension. As for his method of discarding, he simply disposed of it in such a manner so as it did not fall to the ground below!
At Luke 4:28-30 he had to forcibly remove himself from a mob to avoid physical injury and an untimely death. Lastly, at Mark 4:38 and Luke 8:23 Jesus was sleeping.) Although he performed miracles with his God and Father’s power, he still knew what it was like to be born from a mother and to grow to manhood. (Luke 8:46, 9:43; John 10:32; 1 Corinthians 1:24) Therefore the difference is very much an ontological one. Materialized spirits are ontologically spirits, not humans. The born Jesus was ontologically human, not spirit. (Refer to figures [1] and [2].)
This reversed upon Jesus’ resurrection to spirit life by his God and Father. (1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Peter 3:18; Galatians 1:1)
Figure 1:
Illustrating the “Kenosis Event” of Philippians 2:7.
Figure 2:
Illustrating the difference between human nature and a materialization.
With the later, the spirit person controls the materialization with his transcendent mind. The materialization cannot act independently, and is all that is seen in the physical realm (like the tip of an iceberg).
Trinitarianism obviously cannot accept that Jesus emptied or divested himself of what he was prior to becoming a human born from a human. Thus, it should be no surprise to see statements such as the following: “Christ did not ‘empty’ Himself of Godhood. He did not cease to be what He essentially and eternally was.” (“Empty.” Vine’s Expository Dictionary.
Thus, it maintains that Jesus did not empty himself of what he was prior and unwittingly condemns Paul as a heretic, despite Paul’s preemptive condemnation of those who change the gospel he preached of heresy. (Galatians 1:8) What is also overlooked is that Jesus’ divine nature or “Godhood” was for a time, four days in fact, in hypostatic union with a zygote in Mary’s fallopian tube, as well as in hypostatic union with the rest of the pre-sentient developmental stages. Yet, this ignored and embarrassing situation is avoided by simply believing that Paul spoke the truth, that Jesus divested himself of what he was before becoming a man—a man supported and sustained by his heavenly Father before sacrificing his life and returning to heaven and being restored to his divine nature, exalted in position, and granted immortality.—Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:9; 1 Timothy 6:16.
We Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the only hope for life after death is in the resurrection, which they say involves re-creation by God of the same individual with a new body.
We believe that 144,000 people will be resurrected to life as spirit creatures in heaven to be priestly rulers under Christ, but the vast majority, to physical life on earth.
According to the Scriptures, the vast majority of the dead will be brought back to life on earth. (Psalm 37:29; Matthew 6:10) Describing his breathtaking vision of resurrected ones, the apostle John wrote: “The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:11-14) Those in Hades, or Sheol—mankind’s common grave—are in God’s memory. Every single one of them will be released from the grip of death. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) And each one will be judged according to the deeds he performs after he is resurrected. What will then happen to death and Hades? They will be hurled into “the lake of fire.” This means that the death that humans inherited from Adam will no longer affect them.
Just think of the happy prospect that the promise of the resurrection opens up for those who have lost a loved one in death! When Jesus resurrected the only son of the widow of Nain, what joy she must have experienced! (Luke 7:11-17) And concerning the parents of a 12-year-old girl whom Jesus brought back to life, the Bible says: “At once they were beside themselves with great ecstasy.” (Mark 5:21-24, 35-42; Luke 8:40-42, 49-56) In God’s promised new world, it will be a delight to welcome back loved ones! 
The apostle Paul declares that “if there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.” (1Co 15:44) This is corroborated by the apostle Peter when he tells persons of fleshly, human nature, called to be joint heirs with Christ, that they are to become partakers of “divine nature,” namely, spirit life in the invisible heavens. (2Pe 1:4) This requires a change in organism, for “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”—1Co 15:50-54.
Jesus never claimed to be the AlmightyGod. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.
In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.
Time and again, Jesus showed that he was a creature separate from God and that he, Jesus, had a God above him, a God whom he worshiped, a God whom he called “Father.” In prayer to God, that is, the Father, Jesus said, “You, the only true God.” (John 17:3) At John 20:17 he said to Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” (RS, Catholic edition) At 2 Corinthians 1:3 the apostle Paul confirms this relationship: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Since Jesus had a God, his Father, he could not at the same time be that God.
The apostle Paul had no reservations about speaking of Jesus and God as distinctly separate: “For us there is one God, the Father, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 8:6, JB) The apostle shows the distinction when he mentions “the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels.” (1 Timothy 5:21, RS Common Bible) Just as Paul speaks of Jesus and the angels as being distinct from one another in heaven, so too are Jesus and God.
Jesus’ words at John 8:17, 18 are also significant. He states: “In your own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” Here Jesus shows that he and the Father, that is, Almighty God, must be two distinct entities, for how else could there truly be two witnesses?
Jesus further showed that he was a separate being from God by saying: “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18, JB) So Jesus was saying that no one is as good as God is, not even Jesus himself. God is good in a way that separates him from Jesus.
Time and again, Jesus made statements such as: “The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing.” (John 5:19, The Holy Bible, by Monsignor R. A. Knox) “I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 6:38) “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.” (John 7:16) Is not the sender superior to the one sent?
This relationship is evident in Jesus’ illustration of the vineyard. He likened God, his Father, to the owner of the vineyard, who traveled abroad and left it in the charge of cultivators, who represented the Jewish clergy. When the owner later sent a slave to get some of the fruit of the vineyard, the cultivators beat the slave and sent him away empty-handed. Then the owner sent a second slave, and later a third, both of whom got the same treatment. Finally, the owner said: “I will send my son [Jesus] the beloved. Likely they will respect this one.” But the corrupt cultivators said: “‘This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours.’ With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed him.” (Luke 20:9-16) Thus Jesus illustrated his own position as one being sent by God to do God’s will, just as a father sends a submissive son.
The followers of Jesus always viewed him as a submissive servant of God, not as God’s equal. They prayed to God about “thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, . . . and signs and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus.”—Acts 4:23, 27, 30, RS, Catholic edition.
Its called Christian Family Forum.
“Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” EVERY translation, other than your corrupted version of the Bible and possibly the one you stated, says I AM. Even New Living Translation "Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am !” He never said, I was, I am older, I was before. No. He said I AM God. Just because you do not want to accept that, does not mean it is not true.
Completely unbiblical. Chapter and verse?
Yes, He gave Himself the authority.
Not a true interpretation
Nope. As I have already proven.
That right there is what disqualifies Jehovah’s Witnesses as a true “Christian” religion. That is also close to being heresy. You cannot change reality by adding an “A” or misrepresenting what He said as something else. Jesus IS God, He IS part of the Trinity along with the Holy Spirit.
Peter
Yes, they do. They changed the Bible to fit their beliefs. They denounce Christ as God and show that they are nothing more than any other false religion out there.
Peter
That. Denouncing Jesus as God. Changing the Word to fit their belief system. They have removed the total, undeniable, uncorruptible Word of God into something like corruptible man. Sadly, so many are misled.
Peter
Bibles that have renderings of eimi in past tenses:
This reading is supported by a minority of modern scholars:
Jason BeDuhn, cites Herbert Weir Smyth’s grammar which shows examples in classical narratives of where a use of Greek present can be translated by English present perfect progressive, and BeDuhn argues for a “past progressive” translation such as “I have been.”
There’s a clear reason that “I and the Father are one” does not mean Jesus is God. What does it mean to be one with the Father? Does it necessarily mean that you are part of the same being, a different person within that individual being? Well, we can look in John 17, where Jesus prays three times in the intercessory prayer that his followers become one with him just like he is one with the Father. In other words, whatever this oneness is that Jesus shares with God is communicable, and Jesus is explicitly praying for his own followers to achieve oneness with him that is identical to the oneness that he has with the Father.
The notion that this oneness means consubstantiality, according to the later developed concept of the Trinity, is nonsensical in light of John 17. That would mean that John 17 is suggesting that all of Jesus’s followers would become a part of the Trinity. Now there are folks who are going to argue that the oneness that is being referred to in John 17 is a different type of oneness that Jesus has with God than the oneness that Jesus asserts in John 10. But this is very clearly just a rhetorical dodge, because there are absolutely no data anywhere that support the notion that when Jesus says, “I want my followers to be one with me just like I am one with you,” that is something different from the oneness that Jesus asserts in John 10 when Jesus says, “I am one with the Father.” This does not mean that Jesus is God.
The Son is subordinate to the Father, not only in submission and role, but with actual ontological subordination to varying degrees. The Bible posits a hierarchical ranking of the Father and the Son, implying ontological subordination.
According to scholars, virtually all orthodox theologians prior to the Arian controversy in the latter half of the fourth century were subordinationists to some extent,[7] which also applies to Irenaeus, Tertullian,[8][9] Hippolytus, Justin Martyr and Novatian.[10][11][12] It was also found in the Ascension of Isaiah.[13]
Athanasius and others at Nicaea adopted Greek Platonic philosophy and concepts, and incorporated them in their views of God and Christ.
Subsequently, early nontrinitarian beliefs (subordinationism) were systematically suppressed, often to the point of death.
Elaine Pagels writes: “In AD 367, Athanasius, the zealous bishop of Alexandria, issued an Easter letter in which he demanded that Egyptian monks destroy all such unacceptable writings’”.
Actually, the doctrine of the Trinity originated from the Egyptian theologians of Alexandria. Alexandrian theology, with its strong emphasis on the deity of Jesus, served to infuse Egypt’s pagan religious heritage into Christianity. The Church adopted these Egyptian tenets after adapting them to Christian thinking by means of Greek philosophy. Thus the development of the idea of a co-equal triune godhead was based on pagan Greek and Platonic influence, including many basic concepts from Aristotelian philosophy incorporated into the biblical God.
As an example, Aristotle stated: “All things are three, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods; for, as Pythagoreans say, everything and all things are bound by threes, for the end, the middle, and the beginning have this number in everything, and these compose the number of the Trinity.”
Likewise the Greek philosopher Plato believed in a special “threeness” in life and in the universe. In Phaedo, he introduces the word “trinity” (in Greek τριάς). This was adopted by 3rd and 4th century professed Christians as roughly corresponding to “Father, Word, and Spirit (Soul)”.
But such notions and adoptions make the Trinity doctrine extra-biblical. There is a widely acknowledged synthesis of Christianity with Platonic philosophy evident in trinitarian formulas appearing by the end of the 3rd century. Beginning with the Constantinian period, these pagan ideas were forcibly imposed on the churches as Catholic doctrine.