Is Baptism Required For Salvation?

Theology
41

You raise some very important theological considerations about circumcision and baptism, especially regarding the meaning and role of these rites in relation to faith and the Spirit.

On Circumcision

Circumcision in the Old Testament was indeed given as a sign of the covenant God made with Abraham and His people (Genesis 17:9-14). It was an outward symbol that represented a commitment to God’s covenant law and a marker of belonging to God’s chosen people. However, as Paul explains, true circumcision is a matter of the heart, not just the flesh (Romans 2:28-29). Those who live by the Spirit and keep God’s law inwardly are counted as circumcised, even if physically uncircumcised (Romans 2:25-29). So, the rite pointed toward the deeper spiritual reality of holiness and dedication to God.

On the Relation Between Obedience and the Rite

You asked: If someone does the rite as required, would it be accounted to them? The Bible’s answer is nuanced. The physical rite alone, without genuine faith and heart obedience, does not fulfill the covenant. The external sign cannot replace inward faith and obedience. This is why Paul speaks against relying solely on the flesh (Galatians 5:6).

On Baptism and the Spirit

Baptism in the New Testament is the spiritual counterpart to circumcision—a sign of the believer’s union with Christ, repentance, and receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; Colossians 2:11-12). Like circumcision, baptism itself is a meaningful ordinance but does not automatically save or guarantee grace without personal faith. Importantly, the passage you refer to about those who have received the Spirit and having baptism as a sign (e.g., 1 Corinthians 12:13; Acts 10:44-48) affirms that baptism follows genuine faith and Spirit reception.

On the Dogmatism Around Baptism

You rightly point out that dogmatic rigidity is challenged by the biblical understanding that true spiritual reality—the presence of the Spirit—cannot be invalidated by debates over mode or timing of baptism. The essential issue is faith and Spirit-receiving, which baptism publicly symbolizes.

Summary

  • Circumcision was an external sign pointing to a deeper, heart-level obedience and covenantal relationship with God.
  • The rite alone was never enough—faith and obedience defined true covenant membership.
  • Baptism in the New Testament serves a similar role as a sign of faith and Spirit-receiving but does not replace genuine faith itself.
  • Those who have truly received the Spirit and believe are not to be judged solely by external rites, but by the transformative work of the Spirit in their lives.

In this light, your observation beautifully underscores how God’s covenant signs—circumcision and baptism—are powerful symbols but always point beyond themselves to the reality of faith and Spirit-work.

On Circumcision as a Sign and Heart Reality

  • Genesis 17:10-11 — Circumcision as the covenant sign
  • Romans 2:28-29 — True circumcision is of the heart by the Spirit, not just outward
  • Galatians 5:6 — Faith working through love, not circumcision, justifies

On Baptism as a Sign of Faith and Receiving the Spirit

  • Acts 2:38 — Repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit go together
  • Colossians 2:11-12 — Baptism parallels circumcision but points to new life in Christ
  • 1 Corinthians 12:13 — All baptized by one Spirit into one body
  • Acts 10:44-48 — Spirit received before baptism, showing Spirit precedes the rite

On Faith and Spirit Transformation Being Primary

  • Ephesians 2:8-9 — Salvation by grace through faith, not works or rites
  • John 3:5-6 — Being “born of the Spirit” is essential for new life

These passages show that both circumcision and baptism are meaningful covenant signs pointing to heart faith and Spirit-work rather than being mere external rituals. Genuine faith and Spirit reception are what truly count

43

Thank you, @BibleWisdomLover. I agree with you. I would add that infant baptism is a sign of the faith of the parent(s) and their commitment to raise their child in the Christian faith. It’s also God’s welcome into his congregation’s life and their commitment to raise the child with instruction in the Bible’s truths.

44

Hi

If I recall correctly, I thought I said : if one does what is required of the rite would not the rite be accounted to them.

Playing off this passage in Romans:

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

45

What about people who are confined to a hospital bed, nursing home or what if you are on a plane that is crashing and you ask Jesus to save you from the heart but there’s no water for baptism? Are they not saved?

1 Like
46

I dont know how to reply to the post itself..

But this is for anyone who wants to snswer.

But hey Butch!

In Acts 3

Question

Is the gift the spirit

Or is the gift power that comes by the Spirit, because the Spirit is power?

Question

When does scripture show that they would have what Peter preached ?

I asked that because I was :thinking: thinking

That just maybe the word believed is Spirit

If so the Holy ghost is the power, the annoiting of the spirit within.

Which then might mean the Holyghost or annoiting is the gift.

These words are interesting: I will pour out OF my Spirit

&

The part where Jesus goes back and receives power..

And then it seems power is given from Him.

This is not, to be, necessarily argued but discussed in order to make sure I understand it correctly.

Here is something else…they were to receive power when the Holyghost came upon them..But before Christ left He breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit…if I recall correctly.

47

My understanding only: You are 3; mind or conscience (soul), body and spirit. God is 3; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your spirit is basically dead to the things of God until you are saved by faith through Christ Jesus. At that moment the Holy Spirit comes in and awakens your spirit to the things of God. That’s why non-believers can read the Bible and not have a deeper understanding of God’s word as do believers. Their spirit is there but it is dead to the things of God. They can memorize dates and have basic understanding like with any book but the deeper things go un noticed. I don’t know if that is what you were talking about but that is how I understand it.

48

Of course they are.

In the ancient days of Christianity, when the Church was facing regular persecution at the hands of the Roman authorities, very often people heard the Gospel and (in spite of the danger of converting to Christianity during periods of intense persecution) would start the process of Catechesis. That is, going through the basic “Christianity 101” coursework, being taught basic Christian teaching, the this is what we believe and why, and this is what we do and why we do it, here’s what following Jesus looks like, etc. In the ancient world people converting to Christianity would spend about a year going through catechesis, a period of teaching, at the end of which (usually on Easter Sunday) they would be baptized. This is actually still pretty normal in many traditional churches.

The reason I bring this up is because during persecutions those who were going through catechesis (known as catechumens) were often targeted for persecution, they’d be imprisoned, tortured, and killed. All before they could be baptized. So were they saved? And the answer, of course, was that yes–of course they were saved. Early Christian theologians spoke about what they called “baptism of desire” and “baptism of blood”; by which they meant that the only reason someone didn’t get baptized was because they literally couldn’t, they died before they were baptized, but it was their intent and desire to be baptized and had they not had their life robbed from them, they would have been baptized. And, in a sense, their own blood, spilled in martyrdom, became for them a kind of “baptism”–one who would die believing in Christ is not outside of Christ, but is just as much in Christ as any baptized member of the Church. And Christians have long and always recognized this.

Because the point of Baptism isn’t as robotic, it’s about the condescension of God, in His mercy. Baptism is a promise, God’s promise, and God takes what He says seriously, “My word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11).

It’s always about God’s grace.

49

I know this isn’t addressed to me. But, biblically speaking, the “gift of the Holy Spirit” is the Holy Spirit Himself. Jesus consistently spoke of how the Father, and He too, would send the Holy Spirit–the promise and gift of the Spirit is the Spirit Himself. That was fulfilled on Pentecost as described in Acts ch. 2, where the Spirit was poured out, and St. Peter quotes the Prophet Joel about how in the last days God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh. Peter then extends the invitation to everyone listening in Jerusalem, to repent, be baptized, because here God’s promise–forgiveness of sins and receiving the Spirit–is found.

We receive the Holy Spirit as a gift, He comes and invades our life, through the Gospel–when the word is preached, when the Sacraments are administered–to bring renewal to our hearts and minds. That is why new birth is connected to the Holy Spirit (John 3:5 and Titus 3:5), and why Paul speaks of our being sealed with the Holy Spirit when we heard the Gospel proclaimed and believed in Ephesians 1:13.

The power of the Holy Spirit is multifold, though specifically Christ speaks to His Apostles as being “given power from on high”, referring to the condescension of the Spirit on Pentecost. That is to say, the Apostles were empowered by the Spirit to fulfill the task which they had been called for–to be apostles (the Greek word which we render as “apostle” in English literally means “sent out one”, someone sent out for a purpose)–it was the work, mission, and calling of the Apostles to, after receiving the Spirit, go out and proclaim the Gospel to all nations. The Church continues in the apostolic mission through the regular preaching of the Gospel, as well as undertaking missions to reach those who have never heard, and in bearing witness to Christ as disciples through our day-to-day lives of Christian discipleship and being members of Christ’s body through our congregations, as baptized members of the Church and partakers of Christ’s body and blood through the Lord’s Supper.

The power of the Holy Spirit in our lives is, again multifold–the Spirit brings conviction to our conscience over sin through the preaching of God’s commandments (the Law) so that we can behold our sin, grieve, and then confess and repent; and the Holy Spirit brings comfort and confidence to us, freeing us from the tyranny of guilt as we hear the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins are proclaimed to us because of what Christ has done, and that God’s promises are true, faithful, and irrevocable. The Holy Spirit calls us, and moves us, giving and strengthening our faith, renewing our minds and transforming our hearts to be soft and molded and shaped by God’s word, to be conformed to Christ, “have this same mind in you that was in Christ Jesus” “Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind” etc. So that the fruit of the Spirit is peace, love, joy, patience, kindness, etc. The Holy Spirit is sanctifying us, by giving us humility, by provoking us to love and kindness, by drawing us to our knees in repentance, and turning our gaze to the Cross, and our hears to hear the Good News. This is the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. To make us holy.

50

That would depend upon which baptism we are discussing here, for the word baptism by itself and apart from the inclusion of the word water, doesn’t necessarily mean water baptism but it can mean being immersed or included into Christ by the Spirit in his death and resurrection.

This is the baptism that is absolutely necessary for salvation and which the outward action of water baptism only represents.

Therefore he who believes and is immersed into Christ by the Spirit and through faith, shall be saved, while he who believes not shall be damned.

Why does Paul only include not believing as what damns you when he states that it is believing and being baptized that saves you in that same sentence?

Because your being including or immersed into Christ’s death and resurrection was not by your action but was by the operation of God through the Spirit when you believed and that is why it is stated this way.

Just read Romans 6, for as Paul very clearly said, “we are buried “immersed” with him in the likeness of his death and raised with him in the likeness of his resurrection”.

Water Baptism therefore is only the outward symbol of this and therefore not the baptism that actually saves anyhow.

1 Like
51

Hi, no it’s fine to answer.

I’m really looking for clarity when I write. Trying things on, to see if there is scripture support.

I am trying to see if Holyghost and Holy Spirit can be distinguish rightfully.

I know that people used them interchangeably but I believe they are different. And some differences may help us to understand different events.

So recall that b4 Jesus Left He already blew the breath on His disciples and said receive ye the Spirit.

So then what was promised? The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?

Now I came to undogmatically believe, but not completely sure that since there is the Spirit of God. And Spirit of Christ in the Bible that we Receive the Spirit of the Father, and moving in faith we receive the power of the resurrected body of Christ.” Holy Ghost”

If one says the gift of the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit I can understand that. However there seems to be something missing

And in my opinion the visuals, like laying of hands and such are ways we see what happens to an individual.

And go down in History as a recording to look back on.

For why did Paul say have you received the Holy Ghost sense you believed

His kingdom comes with power.

So when He layed His hands on them did they receive the Holy Spirit or the Holyghost.

So it sounds like they had to hear and receive Christ first. Hence, Paul preached Christ and they received the the living word…

So let’s go to Christ’s Baptism as a copy and see if there are any similarities.

Here is where I believe God annoited Jesus with power. He says this is my son in whom I am well pleased.

God revealed to Israel and John who Jesus is at His baptisms.

After receiving the word God reveals the Spirit in them. SO WHOSE spirit did they receive.

………..

Noting; Both Holy Ghost and Spirit are in this passage:

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Note in the kjv…”is pour out of”

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,

I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

……….

Just something to meditate on

Peace and blessings

52

For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.

Isaiah

Here 2 different things are pour out:

  1. Spirit
  2. My blessing

Prophesying and tongues seem like expressions of having received the Spirit ( outward signs)

As how the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus as a dove to announce Jesus to Israel.

This all happens in water..And water is what was practiced, all baptisms that have usually taken place that I know of happened in water…Noah’s ark, Red sea, Jesus, and John’s

Could this be how the earth declares God’s glory?

For there are 3 that testify on earth, and 3 in heaven

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

…….

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

If so How would the earth declare Gods glory in us

Or

How would the Earth testify of the Spirit with/in us.

3 thing have to be mimicked that were at Jesus’s immersion the father, Son. And Holy Ghost.

What might that look like?

Testify in Heaven

A.Prophecy Revelation …God’s word

B.Tongues of :fire: :fire: :fire: -Holyghost power

C.Christ preached - the word believed =Spirit

Testify on earth

  1. Escaping this eathly life- water ( through water by one made of water)
  2. New heart- The Spirit
  3. Cleansing- by his blood

Just some thoughts on how one can think about what these are and what they mean.

53

I am trying to see if Holyghost and Holy Spirit can be distinguish rightfully.

I know that people used them interchangeably but I believe they are different. And some differences may help us to understand different events.

There’s no difference. Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit. This is a quirk of the English language because English is a Germanic language with a strong Latin influence through French. As such we’ve doubled up on words. In this specific case “ghost” and “spirit”, “ghost” is a Germanic word and “spirit” is a Latin one. In the original Hebrew and Greek of the Bible there is just one Hebrew word (ruach) and one Greek word (pneuma).

Holy Ghost/Spirit in Hebrew is Ruach ha-Qodesh. Holy Ghost/Spirit in Greek is Pneuma Hagion.

Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit are simply semantically different because English is weird.

If I point to a vehicle and call it a “car” or call it an “automobile” it means the same thing. We just have two different words for the same thing. In the same way “Holy Spirit” and “Holy Ghost” are just two different semantic expressions to refer to the same Person–the Divine Person of the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

Because, keep in mind, in the original languages of the Bible–and in virtually all other languages that aren’t English–there is only one word to refer to the Holy Spirit. In Hebrew it’s Ruach, in Greek it’s Pneuma, in German its Geist, in Latin it’s Spiritus. There is only one Person being spoken about here: The Ruach haKodesh, Pneuma Hagion, Heiliger Geist, Spiritus Sanctus, Ysbryd Glân (Welsh). The same Divine Person. The Spirit of the Father and Son, Himself distinct, and granted to us by the grace of God as a gift.

-CryptoLutheran

2 Likes
54

Hi, as for my understanding I believe there is a difference.

And might be able to share a helpful commentary later if I can find it.

The Spirit of the Holy

One scripture that this ideal may be evident in is : John 7 verse 39

But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.

Jesus had to be glorified before the Holy Ghost could be given. So what did He blow on His disciples before He left?

Receive ye the Spirit….

Codex Sinaiticus

He that believes on me, as the scripture said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 But this he spoke of the Spirit which those that believe on him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

“The Spirit was not yet”

…..

He tells his Disciples in Acts :But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

There is something about all this that tells me there is a difference.

55

Modern English translations describe the third person of the triune God as “the Holy Spirit.” However, the 1611 King James Version used the term “Holy Ghost” some 90 times and “Holy Spirit” seven times. The reason the KJV uses both terms is that it was translated by several teams and, apparently, they translated the term differently.

In the 17th century, the word ghost meant an immaterial being. When someone died, their immaterial part, the spirit or ghost of the deceased person, continued to live on. Maybe you’ve heard the phrase “give up the ghost,” which carries the same meaning. In modern times, the word “ghost” has come to mean an apparition. Thus, today, the better translation of the original Greek word pneuma is Spirit, not Ghost.

All that to say, there is no difference between the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost. He is the third person of the triune God, the Comforter sent by the Lord Jesus (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7) who indwells all Jesus followers forever (John 14:17). He testifies of and glorifies the Lord Jesus, pointing to the Messiah rather than Himself (John 15:27; 16:14). The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, showing lost people their need for redemption through the Lord Jesus (John 16:8–11). He regenerates (Titus 3:5), indwells (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19), baptizes (1 Cor. 12:13), and seals all Jesus followers (Eph. 1:13; 4:30), assuring their security until their day of redemption.

J.

56

We don’t agree

In the same way You might not see the difference between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus. But they too are different.

57

Hebrew (Old Testament):
The word for “spirit” is רוּחַ (rûaḥ), a feminine noun meaning breath, wind, or spirit. When paired with “holy” it becomes רוּחַ הַקֹּדֶשׁ (rûaḥ haqqōdeš), literally “Spirit of holiness.”

Examples

Psalm 51:11, “Do not take your Holy Spirit (rûaḥ qodshekha) from me.”

Isaiah 63:10–11, “They rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit (rûaḥ qodsho).”

Sometimes the phrase is expanded as רוּחַ אֱלֹהִים (rûaḥ ʾĕlōhîm, Spirit of God) or רוּחַ אֲדֹנָי (rûaḥ ʾădōnāy, Spirit of the Lord). All are the same Spirit, simply different titles.

Greek (New Testament):
The word for “spirit” is πνεῦμα (pneuma), a neuter noun meaning breath, wind, or spirit. The phrase “Holy Spirit” is πνεῦμα ἅγιον (pneuma hagion), or with the article τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον (to pneuma to hagion).

Examples

Luke 3:22, “The Holy Spirit (to pneuma to hagion) descended in bodily form.”

Acts 2:4, “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit (pneumatos hagiou).”

Ephesians 4:30, “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God (to pneuma to hagion tou theou).”

In older English (KJV), “Ghost” was used as a synonym for “Spirit” because “gast” in Middle English meant breath or spirit. So “Holy Ghost” is simply the older English rendering of the same Greek phrase pneuma hagion.

Hebrew רוּחַ הַקֹּדֶשׁ (rûaḥ haqqōdeš) = Greek πνεῦμα ἅγιον (pneuma hagion).

Both mean the “Holy Spirit,” the same divine Person, not different beings.

Titles like Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Spirit of Christ, Comforter (παράκλητος, paraklētos, John 14:26) all refer to the same Holy Spirit.

So biblically, the Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are synonymous. The difference lies only in English translation tradition, not in the original Hebrew or Greek.

J.

1 Like
58

I Still see a difference…between Holyghost and Holy Spirit.

But tks for your input

Its partially related to the difference between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus.

59

This is John 7:39

τοῦτο δὲ εἶπεν περὶ τοῦ πνεύματος οὗ ἔμελλον λαμβάνειν οἱ πιστεύοντες εἰς αὐτόν· οὔπω γὰρ ἦν πνεῦμα Ἅγιον, ὅτι ὃ Ἰησοῦς οὐδέπω ἐδοξάσθη

Same word, pneumatos and pneuma are the same word, just in a different grammatical cases, pneumatos is in the genitive while pneuma is in the nominative.

The Holy Spirit was not poured out until Pentecost. But the Holy Spirit is Himself a Divine Person, He is uncreated, He is God. He is first mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis (Genesis 1:2) where God’s Ruach is above the primordial waters. That’s the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus went to John and asked to be baptized by him “to fulfill all righteousness” we read:

καὶ καταβῆναι τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον σωματικῷ εἴδει ὡσεὶ περιστερὰν ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν καὶ φωνὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι λέγουσαν, Σὺ εἶ ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός ἐν σοὶ ἠυδόκησα

The Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) descended in the form of a dove upon Jesus.

When Jesus breathes on His apostles He says

καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐνεφύσησεν καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς Λάβετε πνεῦμα ἅγιον·

“receive the Holy Spirit”

The Holy Spirit has always existed, because He is God.

What happened on Pentecost was a unique event where the Holy Spirit was poured out in a special way to fulfill the words of the prophets, specifically the prophecy of Joel that God would “in the latter days” pour out His Spirit on “all flesh”; this is the fulfillment of the promise which John the Baptist said, “I baptize you with water, but He who comes after me is greater than me, whose sandals I am unworthy to tie, He will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire”, and Jesus’s own promises that after He suffers, dies, and is raised He would ascend and return to the Father, but would not leave His followers as orphans but He and His Father would send the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete–the Comforter–who would remind them of all He said and did, guiding them in truth, and He Himself would be with them through the presence and power of the Spirit.

All of that was promised, and fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was poured out. Thus empowering not only the Apostles to go and fulfill their apostolic mission to be the witnesses of Christ to all nations, but empowering the whole of the Church to godly life together in their common faith and hope in Jesus the Lord and Messiah.

Also, there is no difference between “Jesus Christ” and “Christ Jesus”. “King Henry” and “Henry the King” mean the same thing. That’s what “Jesus Christ” and “Christ Jesus” mean, “Jesus the Messiah” and “The Messiah, Jesus”–Jesus is the Christos (Christ), that’s the Greek translation of the Hebrew word Meshiach (Messiah), the Anointed, the One chosen, anointed, and promised who would be the Everlasting King of not just Israel, but the whole world who would accomplish Israel’s redemption, and indeed the redemption of all things. Jesus is the Messiah, the King, the King of kings and Lord of lords; and He is seated on His Messianic Throne at the right hand of the Father having been given all power, authority, and dominion.

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60

@Corlove13, I think you said that the “Spirit is power.” Well, the Spirit is a Person of God with Jesus and the Father as the one God. The Spirit has unlimited power, as do the other Persons of God. For example, Paul calls us to avoid grieving the Holy Spirit. A mere power can’t be grieved, and Jesus promises the Holy Spirit as a Person alongside of him:

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Joh 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Joh 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.
Joh 15:27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

61

I Still see a difference…between Holyghost and Holy Spirit.

But why not just believe what the objective facts say? Why choose to disagree with the facts when they’ve been clearly demonstrated to you?