No doubt, @Mac, Orthodox theology (while it takes cataphatic+apophatic, i lean on the apophatic side but im open to both) indeed affirms that true knowledge of God transcends mere intellectual assent or belief systems, it is an ontological transformation rooted in theosis. But I believe that belief without participation remains incomplete, truth emerges as we are conformed to the likeness of God
@Samuel-23. When one has actually met the same God face to face as Jesus did in Matt 3:16, as Adam did in the garden and became like God to know the difference from beliefs and reality of. And as in Abraham, Moses, Mary, and 120. That conformation is instantaneous. It isn’t something we grow into it is something we have received, a gift we receive to be in Gods same image that only He can create man to be.
The simplicity of that revelation is we become the same Love of mind that He is, which is not something we learn through experience in trying, but actuals of receiving that cage of knowledge. That happens in the twinkling of an eye, all things become new, spiritually, a new heaven and earth is open in us just as a new heaven was opened in all of these and in Jesus in Matt 3:16. .
I see what you are saying, no doubt,but I slightly differ on one point:
While theosis is indeed a transformative participation in God’s life, Orthodox tradition also affirms moments of grace where this union is profoundly experienced “in the twinkling of an eye,” as you describe. Yet, this gift unfolds within the lifelong journey of synergy between divine grace and human response. Both instantaneous revelation and gradual growth coexist in the economy of salvation.
Your claim confuses personal spiritual experience with the biblical pattern of redemption, and collapses the objective work of Christ into subjective mysticism. What you describe is not what Scripture teaches about salvation, sanctification, or the image of God. You have bypassed the cross, skipped over repentance, and redefined new creation into self-deification.
First, Matthew 3:16 does not teach that Jesus became divine by receiving a spiritual awakening. He is already the Son of God before the Spirit descends. The voice from heaven declares, “This is my beloved Son” not because He entered divinity, but because He already is the divine Son, eternally begotten, not made. You cannot duplicate the baptism of the sinless Christ in sinful man. He is the Lamb, you are not.
Second, Adam did not “become like God” in a glorious spiritual encounter. He fell in Genesis 3 by believing the serpent’s lie: “you shall be like God, knowing good and evil.” Your wording dangerously echoes that same lie, confusing the image of God with equality to God. Adam’s eyes were opened, yes, but unto shame, death, and banishment, not spiritual enlightenment.
Third, the experience of Abraham, Moses, Mary, and the 120 in Acts 2 are not instant deifications but moments of God’s sovereign calling, unfolding over lifetime obedience. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6), but he also walked with God for decades. Moses was called in Exodus 3, but met God repeatedly with trembling and fear, veiling his face (Exodus 33:20). Mary received favor, not exaltation. The 120 in Acts 2 received the Spirit, but Peter still needed correction in Acts 10. No one in Scripture became the “same love of mind that God is” in an instant.
You quote 2 Corinthians 5:17 incorrectly. Yes, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation”, but this is not self-revelation. It is union with Christ by grace through faith. The newness is positionally in Christ, not mystical equality with God. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:12, “Now we see in a mirror dimly, then face to face”. The fullness comes later, not instantly.
Moreover, the language of “the same love of mind that He is” contradicts Isaiah 55:8–9: “My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways.” God’s mind and love are infinitely holy. We are conformed to His image through sanctification, not instant absorption.
Your “twinkling of an eye” reference is from 1 Corinthians 15:52, and it refers to the resurrection of the body at Christ’s return, not an inward mystical awakening. You are misusing Scripture to assert gnosis instead of gospel.
The idea that “a new heaven and earth opens in us” is not what Revelation teaches. Revelation 21 speaks of the future eschatological reality, not an inner realm you awaken to. The kingdom comes with the King, not through mystical elevation.
In sum, your framework:
• Replaces Christ’s atonement with inward experience
• Misuses Scripture to justify spiritual self-exaltation
• Echoes Gnostic heresies rather than apostolic doctrine
• Forgets the cross, bypasses repentance, and ignores sanctification
What Scripture teaches is that salvation is by grace, through faith in Christ crucified, resulting in new life, progressive holiness, and ultimate glorification at His coming. You do not become God. You become His child, redeemed by blood, adopted by mercy, and shaped into His image through suffering, obedience, and Spirit-led transformation.
Test your revelation by the Word, not by the sensation. If it bypasses Calvary, it is not light. It is deception.
J
As for me in actualities without speculations, my God is a Spirit. Spirit denotes mind, the disposition of. God is Love the Spirit of, the mind of. It is who I am not what I am. Love is the head of my body, my Godhead bodily. Our Spirit, mind, controls what this body does and how it reacts. There is only one thing on this planet that is perfect and never changers, it is the same yesterday as it is today and will be the same tomorrow and that is Love, of God is Love and man is the place of it, the temple of it, Luke 17:20-21. Everything else changes, everything, except Love and either you are or you are not anointed of, which is Christ in you, anointed of Love that God is. SO simple yet so difficult for the religious mind seeking the sensational to understand instead of the stark reality for who they are supposed to be and walk as Jesus walked in it, which is Christ in you, Gods anointed.
My God, @Mac, is outside and inside of me. He is not me, but he made me as his human creature. That’s the God of the Bible, who is love but also many other divine qualities. Your faith sounds like pantheism, in which God is the sum total of all humans. Is that right?
However, the God of the Bible is separate from his creation. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).
Because humans chose to rebel against our Creator, he, the Father, sent the second Person of God, to become Jesus, the God-man, die on the cross, and rise from the dead in order to make us his friends instead of being his enemies.
When one actually understands that God is a Spirit and man is the place that He lives, one finds out that we are the temple of Him. God is not flesh and bone just as Jesus was very clear to Thomas, Spirit doest have flesh and bone as you see me. God is a Spirit, not a man. And when you see Him as He is ye shall be like Him, 1 John 3. Until you do see Him just as you stated here that you have separated yourself from His image. In the beginning of mans introduction to God who is a Spirit, Adam was the very first to discover that we become like Him and in His same image, Gen 3;22. Jesus was very clear in this in Matt 3:16 when he himself discovered the same thing as Adam did in Gen 3;22 from God Himself. Abraham, Moses, Mary, Jesus, 120 in an upper room all made that same discovery from God Himself, and so do we all who has met the same God as all of these did.
If you are different from any of these, then you have formed your own god into your own image, made rules and regulations to control your god that he may obey you.
Here is what Jesus had to say about this very thing about his God that he obeyed and said sent him. Same God that sends us all to do the same. Same mind in me who was in Christ Jesus. You don’t have His same mind as Jesus did? Do you walk as He walks in His same light as Jesus did with the same signs following you? Are you perfect even as God in heaven is perfect. as is a commandment for you in Matt 5:48?
Not many believe Jesus in who he said he was in God do they. Read below who Jesus himself said who he was in God. Most actually accuse Jesus of blasphemy making him a god instead pop who he said he was in God that he called Father.
John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.**
John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.
John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joihn 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come withj observation, it is withn you
John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Matt 11:25. At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
John 17:22 ( And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
The very same applies to all who are born of God. And when Jesus mind was renewed by God Himself in Matt 3:16, he noted that ye must be born again with that same renewing of mind that was open in him by God. And the very reason that he stated in John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Jesus can’t give you Gods heaven, all he could do is lead you to it just as he received from it in Matt 3:16.
Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and no one come to the Father but by me, and his guarantee is not you , not I, not anyone else is going to the Father but the same way as he did in Matt 3:16. Adam, Gen 3:22, Abraham, Moses Mary, 120, all came the same way, by My Spirit says the Lord.
Hey @Mac welcome to the forum discussion, you are in the right section.
Thanks Samuel. I love discussing who Jesus said he was in God.
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I gave away many bible in prisons, did prison ministry for over 25 years. Been to nearly every unit in Texas, retired from it in 2005. I love inmates, they need friends not preachers.
I love the way u quote this. Its true and what you said is moving. For me, here is a bit of my background, most of the time I’m in the college learning theology and philosophy. Im nervous of talking to people in person.
I hope we will have fruitful discussions @Mac
One thing that I learned about schooling is, who does the teachings, God Himself as He did in all of these that He came to we read of and open up a new way of thinking, or by mans teachings of their own ideas and laws and judgments for what is right and who is wrong. When God actually touches the heart and mind and makes you in His same image of Love, mans opinions are out the window and we begin to walk as He walks in His same light.
What is His light of mind? Love, for God is Love and man is the temple of Him.
On can read toms of laws, rules and regulations as in trying to love God, or trying to love they neighbor as thyself, but when the stark reality of it actually happens without effort, then you know who the real teacher is. You become like Him and in His same image. 1 John 3, and when you do see Him as He is, ye shall be like Him.
Jesus said in John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.**
Thats true sir…you do have a deep insight.
Matthew 25:34-36 (NIV)
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
And my teacher, Johann taught me this.
@ Bruce – I suppose it would look that way as in pantheism to one who never has met the God of Love Who is the Spirit and the mind of face to face.
What do you mean, @Mac?
@SincereSeeker Context is in who Jesus said he was in God, anything outside of who he said he was in God is out of context isn’t it?
You said Jesus didn’t come to be my example. Isn’t what you really mean is he is not your example that God sent for you to follow and be like? As for me he was my example and I follow him in his. Ands he is lord only if you follow his example, he is not your lord if you do not obey his example. And understanding the example come only if you follow his lead and become that same example of the father as His child. The difference between Judas and John.
You say I do not quote Jesus, when all that I do is copy and past from a book of his quotes. Perhaps you read a different book about him to make that statement? To you obviously what he said is only theology, and I agree with you, to you is is only theology without any reality of.
And all who has received from God has come down from heaven, you would have to have the same to understand what that means. Jesus didn’t start his life in glory no more than any man does, he was made of a woman born under the law just as you and I. His glory came when he was about 30 years old when the glory of God anointed him with it. and we who has received the same are the same. Were not you born of a woman yourself, did you get here any other way than? Jesus didn’t get here any other way, but you seem to think he did.
If He in me and I in Him are one as Jesus prayed for me too be in John 17 is only spiritualized self help as you deem as spiritualization as if it is your enemy, then there is no way that God can answer Jesus prayer for you of the Father be in you and you be in Him as one as Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in him as one is there. You only reject Jesus prayer that deem as spiritualized self helps. The exact reason that He is not in you and you are not in Him as one to have that same Spirit of mind. You are trying to blame me and Jesus for your own iniquities is all.
Paul is the very reason that most follow him in his doctrine that he was very clear that he used trickery to get you to follow him in his doctrine instead of Jesus in his. Sauls goal was to animate Christianity by persecution, but when he found out that was going to work he changed his name of recognition, to Paul, and put on this spiritual act as of some holy man of God and is he could use that trickery to get gullible people as yourself to follow him in his doctrine instead of Jesus Jesus in his, he could destroy it from the inside outward.
2 Cor 12;16. But be it so, I did not burden you; but being crafty, I caught you by trickery.
How many times did you hear Jesus say he used trickery, witchcraft, soothsaying, to catch people instead of by example?
Paul even stated that the evil man that he was he had a thorn in his flesh, which he stated was his desire to be exalted beyond measure, even that of Christ, for his abundance of revelations. Which his desire was ti have his name on the marque.
if Paul is your way as the sinner he said he was and that you are, then so be it, but as for me Jesus has the better way without sin and perfect even as my God in heaven is perfect. You are Pauline, not Christian. A christian is without sin, impossible to be in sin, cannot sin because we are born of God. 1 John 3:9. If you are a sinner as Paul said he was, then 1 John 3:8 clearly states who you are of.
Your elementary knowledge of people has you following trickery is all.
But you are correct, Spirit isn’t earned, it is a gift we receive. the only stipulation of that gift is that it will cost you your own life, your own ways, everything that you were to receive it, it isn’t free it costs you your own life to receive His as your own ways for His life in love. Giving uo that right to yourself is a very difficult thing for a mind that is of its own beliefs instead. isn’t it?
As far as inviting Gods anointing into my life, which is Christ in me, is the decision all has to make if one is to be of Christ. God is not going to force anything on you, he leaves that decision for you to willing give your life, setting aside your own wants and needs over to a brother that is in need.
@SicereSeekerYou say that I said that flesh is only the vessel God lives in. DO you know of another place where God lives? Was Jesus quote not clear enough for you where the kingdom of God resides in Luke 17:20-21, that obviously his quotes don’t mean anything for you at all by your rebuttals with him. Is not heaven the place of God and does not come with observation but is with you. You tell me of another place that you can observe for a god and I will quote to you where Jesus said it is in Luke 17:20-21 that obviously you reject of him. You can’t even see what you are actually doing.
Rewrite what he said? what he said is what he meant, it is you who is editing what he said not I. He was the example of sacrifice of the flesh man so that spirit man can be risen from that dead state of carnality of flesh that has plagued man form the beginning that man cannot turn loos of that flesh to let the Spirit of God arise from it. The message in the cross is death to that god of flesh and resurrection of the God who is a Spirit. come to life, and I would guess that you along ties millions more are waiting for that god of flesh for over 2000 years to magically appear and save you. when all the wile He is at your door knocking this day and any man that will open that door He will come to you and sup with you and be in you. Rev 3:20. But you are not going to allow that door to be opened are you, you have other means for a god don’t you?
And you are dead wrong in that Jesus was the first crafted one to know God. Adam was the first to be crafted into God kingdom and become like Him not Jesus, read Gen 3;22 and see for yourself, did not he become like God to know that same difference as Jesus learned in Matt 3:16 4000 years later? And what about all of those in-between who became like Him? All you are doing is exempting yourself from that same knowledge is all, for your ego to be right has you stymied.
to you wearing that armor is backward but to we who do wear it as all of those before us wore it, it is the power of GHod in us who fights off those doctrines that say His ways are backwards.
Repentance? If the Spirit of God detects anything in you that is wrong, He does not ask that you put it right, He asks that you accept His light and He will put it right. A child of His light stands before the father bared, a child of darkness says OH I can explain that away. And that is exactly what you are doing! God is not impressed with your earnest state of religion, but only on the grounds of redemption where we become one in Him. Something you should explore in repentance from your own ways and adhere to His.
Mac, you’re weaving scripture like a man trying to build a ladder to heaven out of fishing line. It looks intricate, maybe even spiritual at first glance, but it won’t hold a feather under the weight of truth.
You say the “context” is who Jesus said He was in God. Agreed. But here’s the twist—you’re not actually sticking with what Jesus said. You’re cherry-picking quotes and mutating them through a lens of self-deification. Jesus didn’t come to show you that you are Christ. He came to show you that He is. You’re not the light. You need the Light.
You say Jesus didn’t start in glory? That’s rich. John 1:1 isn’t Paul. It’s John, the very disciple you claim to emulate. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Not “became godly at 30.” And by verse 14, “the Word became flesh.” That means Jesus wasn’t just filled with glory—He is the glory of God wrapped in flesh.
You reduce Christ’s incarnation to a moral upgrade at the Jordan. But Scripture says He “emptied Himself” (Philippians 2), not that He was void of divinity until age thirty. He didn’t evolve into the Son. He is the Son, eternally begotten, not made.
And then you claim unity with the Father makes you one in the same way as Jesus was. You mistake unity of fellowship for sameness of essence. That’s the oldest lie in the book: “You shall be as gods.” That was Satan’s pitch in Eden, and it’s still fooling folks who want Jesus as a pattern but not a Savior.
Now let’s light this up—your take on Paul is not just off, it’s dangerous. You accuse the apostle who was chosen by Christ Himself (Acts 9) of being a manipulative false prophet because he said he used “craftiness”? That verse in 2 Corinthians 12:16 is sarcasm, Mac. Paul’s calling out critics, not confessing to witchcraft. You don’t get to rewrite the apostles to fit your theology. That’s not discernment. That’s delusion.
You want Jesus without the church. The Spirit without the Scriptures. A gospel without a cross. You’ve replaced the cornerstone with a mirror, and now you’re wondering why the building won’t stand.
You say Christians can’t sin. John also says if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8). You’re not preaching holiness. You’re peddling spiritual amnesia.
You say the gift of the Spirit costs you everything? That’s half a gospel. Salvation costs you nothing, because Jesus paid it all. But yes, following Him will cost you everything, because grace isn’t cheap—but it is free. You don’t buy the Spirit with surrender. You receive Him, then you die daily in response.
You keep pointing at your life, your walk, your anointing. But where’s the Lamb? Where’s the blood? Where’s the cross? You’ve built a theology where Christ is your forerunner, but not your substitute. Where He shows you the way, but doesn’t become the way.
That’s not Christianity. That’s spiritual self-replication with a Jesus sticker on top.
Repent not just of sin, but of the pride that dares to remake Christ in your own image.
—Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.
Mac, you keep thumping Luke 17:20–21 like it’s your ace card, but you’re playing it sideways. Jesus didn’t say the kingdom of God is “in” everyone indiscriminately like some universal spark of divinity. He said it’s “in your midst.” He was standing right there. The King was present, and the kingdom was with Him. But you’ve twisted His words to mean God is hiding inside every human like a cosmic Easter egg. That’s not the Gospel—that’s pantheism in a borrowed robe.
You ask where God lives? Psalm 115:3—our God is in the heavens. Isaiah 66:1—heaven is His throne, and the earth is His footstool. And yes, He dwells in His people by the Holy Spirit, but that’s not a blanket endorsement of “God is already in me.” The Spirit does not inhabit unregenerate man. The kingdom is not within the rebellious heart. That door in Revelation 3:20? It’s not a glowing portal to your inner divine—it’s a rebuke to a lukewarm church that thought they had need of nothing.
You say Jesus was the example of the flesh dying so spirit could rise. Yes. But then you try to hijack that truth and insert yourself into the role of resurrected divinity, bypassing the need for substitutionary atonement. The cross isn’t a metaphor for spiritual awakening. It’s a blood-soaked altar where the Lamb of God bore wrath in your place. You keep preaching Jesus as model but never Jesus as Savior. That’s not Christianity. That’s self-help with a halo.
And now you’re dragging Adam into your doctrine like he was the prototype of enlightenment? Genesis 3:22 says, “man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.” That’s not divine promotion. That’s divine judgment. God drove them out, placed a flaming sword, and declared separation. And you’re calling that God-realization? That’s the theology of the serpent, not the Savior.
You say I’m waiting for a flesh-God to magically return. No. I’m waiting for the risen Lord, glorified in a resurrected body, returning just as He ascended (Acts 1:11). He’s not knocking on hearts in metaphorical riddles. He’s coming back in power and glory. And He’s not coming to awaken your inner light. He’s coming to judge the living and the dead.
Your “God in everyone” theology sounds poetic. But it’s poison. It removes the offense of the cross, negates the need for repentance, and inflates man to godhood while reducing God to a principle. The Spirit doesn’t whisper to your ego. He convicts you of sin and drives you to your knees at the foot of Christ.
You say the Spirit doesn’t ask you to put anything right, just to receive light. That’s not holiness. That’s passivity wrapped in spiritual jargon. The Spirit demands repentance, not passive absorption. Jesus didn’t say “accept your light.” He said, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
You don’t need to unlock your divine core. You need to die to it.
—Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.
@Bruce_Leiter. Reading the Bible does not reveal God, it is only an instruction manual how to meet Him access Him face to face. And when you do see Him as He is ye shall be like Him as the instructions say in 1 John 3.
Seminary can’t reveal Giod, all it can do is teach you the laws of, it is a completely different matter when you meet Him as Adam did in the garden and became like Him, Gen 3;22, and when Abraham met Him, ands when Moses met Him, Mary met Him, Jesus met Him in Matt 3:16, 120 in an upper room met Him. Knowing doctrines about a god is not the same as sitting face to face with Him and having that exchange in conversations as all of these did.
As far as seeing a physical God, NO, Jesus was very clear to Thomas that Spirit that God is does not have flesh and bone as you see me. But when you do see Him as He really is as in the instruction in 1 John 3, which is in Spirit you cannot live the life you once lived as a man, you take on His same image, His same mind, you walk in it as He walks in it.
I understand the changes in your life and I thank God in heaven that you have that recognition. But I have to question that God would send yo to mans schools for education. What that does is leave out God doing the teaching instead of the creeds of man in their laws for a belief. If God cannot do the teaching Himself as He did in all of these we read of who did see Him as He is, then something is missing in ones being and they have resorted to mans teachings instead. Gods hand is not so short that He will not reach out and teach man, it is that man hands are so short they do not reach out to Him, it is easier to follow man ways written in in ink instead of becoming like God to know this difference described in Gen 3;22. Reading a bible, memorizing it, studying it, is not the same as God Himself teach you. Gods word is not written on stone or a page of paper, His word is written in the hearts of this who God Himself teaches His ways and who He really is. Jesus needed no man beach him, God Himself did that job, proven in Matt 3:16. The Only One who can open in you His truths. Man can’t give you that, a bible can’t can’t give you that at all. Only God Himself can open that revelation in you.