@Johann @Mac, I was thinking abt universalism when I was young (teen) and I had many friends and community who taught me:
Later I realized the Truth, and I firmly went back to my roots and that is Oriental Orthodox.
At the heart of Universalism lies the axiom that God’s nature is love. I propose that divine love is not merely an attribute but the ontological ground of all reality. Love, in its infinite essence, cannot be constrained by finite categories of justice, punishment of exclusion. If God is the source of all being, and if God’s will is to create and sustain existence, then the purpose of all created beings must align with God’s ultimate intention: communion with the divine.
We can posit that existence is inherently participatory. To exist is to participate in the being of God, who is the pure act of love. Non-existence or eternal separation contradicts the self-giving nature of being itself.
If God’s essence is infinite generosity, then the eternal privation of any soul would imply a limit to God’s power or will which is metaphysically incoherent
The patristic notion of theosis supports this. St. Athanasius declares that “God became man so that man might become god”. If the Incarnation’s purpose is the elevation of humanity to divine communion, then universalism extends this logic:
no soul can be permanently excluded as this would frustrate the divine purpose.
Even the most recalcitrant sinner, through the transformative power of divine grace, must eventually be drawn into this communion, as God’s love is inexhaustible.
2. The Problem of Hell and Divine Justice
Free will is a finite capacity, a gift from God that enables creatures to participate in divine life. However, finite freedom, cannot eternally resist infinite love. Drawing on a speculative metaphysics, we can argue that freedom is teleologically oriented toward the good. Sinful choices, while real, are distortions of this orientation, not its negation. Given infinite time, the soul’s freedom will inevitably align with its true end. THis is not coercion but a natural consequence of encountering the overwhelming beauty of the divine.
Hell, in this view is not eternal in duration but pedagogical in purpose. Drawing on St. Gregory of Nyssa’s concept of restoration ( be careful here, i will talk abt this later), hell is a purifying fire not a punitive dead end. The flames of divine judgement are the same as the flames of divine love, experienced as torment by those who resist, but as illumination by those who surrender. If God’s justice is restorative rather than retributive, then hell serves as a transformative process, not an eternal state.
3.Scripture and Patristic support
Key texts i was taught by the community was
1 Tim 2:4
Rom 5:18
These suggest a symmetry in Christ’s redemptive work that extends to all humanity. Col 1:20 further states that through Christ, God reconciles “all things” to Himself, implying a cosmic scope that transcends human limitations.
Patristic support: None
The Eschatological Horizon
We see a concept call “eschatological pleroma”. The end of history is not a static state but a dynamic communion where all creation is drawn into the life of the Trinity. This aligns with Rev 21:5. Universalism posits that God’s victory is total, leaving no corner of creation unredeemed.
**If evil is a privation of the good, it lacks ontological substance. In the eschaton, where God is “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28), evil cannot persist, as it has no independent existence. This implies that all beings, however fallen, must be ultimately be restored to their divine purpose
Note: Before u guys write a reply, im not a universalist, im an Oriental Orthodox person, what i wrote was taught by the place and culture of where I lived before, leaving it, im firm to the roots of Oriental Orthodox.
Beliefs are not real, only speculations and formed opinions that make laws to govern those opinions. One can believe anything about a god, but it is another matter to be like Him as He creates man to be spiritual and the mind of. for Spirit denotes mind, the thinking part, the educational part of mans being.
Who is correct? Catholics, Mormons, Jews, LDS, Jehovah Witness, Baptists, AOGs, COCs? DO not they all have their own beliefs for a god?
Jesus was very clear that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by me, meaning – Coming to the same God yourself as the very same way as he did in Matt 3:16. Not you, not I, nor anyone else is going to the Father any other way except the same way as Jesus did in Matt 3:16. Adam did in Gen 3;22, Abraham did, Moses did, Mary did, 120 did, it is by My Spirit of Love says the God of it.
This argument confuses mystical imitation with divine redemption, ignores the centrality of the cross, redefines the Spirit as “mind” rather than the third Person of the Trinity, and ultimately preaches another gospel. It presents salvation not as a gift received by grace through faith, but as a spiritual method of self-elevation, which is foreign to Scripture and hostile to apostolic teaching.
Let us dissect it in the light of biblical revelation, not speculation.
- Belief is not speculation but God’s command
To claim “beliefs are not real, only speculations” is to contradict Jesus Christ directly. In John 3:18, He says:
“Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
That is not opinion. That is divine judgment based on belief or unbelief. Belief in Christ is the appointed channel of salvation. Paul says in Romans 10:9:
“If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Belief is not optional, not speculative—it is the God-ordained means by which sinners are justified and reconciled. Hebrews 11:6 says:
“Without faith it is impossible to please God.”
The Scripture does not treat faith as empty theory but as the bridge between man and God—faith in a crucified and risen Savior, not vague “spiritual mind.”
- The Spirit is not “mind” or “education”
You say “Spirit denotes mind, the thinking part.” That is a gross distortion of both Hebrew and Greek Scripture.
In Hebrew, רוּחַ (ruach) means breath, wind, spirit—it is not human intellect. In Greek, πνεῦμα (pneuma) also means spirit, not reason or brainpower. The Holy Spirit is not human consciousness. He is a divine Person.
Jesus says in John 14:26:
“The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things…”
The Spirit teaches, but He is not reducible to the human mind. He is God. He is the one who convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8), regenerates dead sinners (John 3:5–6), and seals the believer (Ephesians 1:13–14). That is not mental education. That is divine new creation.
- Matthew 3:16 is not the path for man—it is the anointing of the Christ
You appeal repeatedly to Matthew 3:16, where Jesus is baptized and the Spirit descends. But that is not a model for how sinners approach God. That is the public inauguration of the sinless Messiah’s ministry. Jesus, who knew no sin, fulfilled all righteousness, identifying with sinners, not because He needed purification, but because He was about to become the Lamb of God.
To say that we come to the Father the same way as Jesus did in Matthew 3:16 is theological nonsense. Jesus is the eternal Son, not a man becoming godlike. We are born alienated from God, needing redemption, not replication.
The real way to the Father is not a baptism of love or a personal breakthrough. It is the cross of Christ. Jesus says in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” That is not an invitation to mystical self-realization. It is a call to trust His substitutionary death and resurrection.
- Adam, Abraham, Moses, and the 120 were saved by faith—not by internal enlightenment
• Adam in Genesis 3:22 did not ascend to God—he was cast out of the garden for disobedience. Genesis 3:22 is a statement of judgment, not promotion.
• Abraham was counted righteous by faith (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3), not by receiving “the Spirit of love.”
• Moses did not approach God through internal awakening. He feared and trembled (Exodus 3:6), and even he was barred from the Promised Land for sin.
• Mary was called “favored one” because of God’s grace, not self-achievement (Luke 1:28).
• The 120 in Acts 2 received the Spirit after the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus—because of the atonement, not apart from it.
You conflate salvation history into a mystical formula, stripping the cross of its necessity.
- Which religion is correct? The one that proclaims the cross and resurrection of Christ
You ask, “Who is correct? Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, AOGs?” This is a distraction. The question is not which group claims truth but who proclaims the apostolic gospel of Christ crucified, risen, and returning, and calls sinners to repentance and faith in Him alone.
Mormons deny the eternal deity of Christ. Jehovah’s Witnesses deny His bodily resurrection. The true faith is the one that proclaims:
“Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and was raised on the third day” (1 Corinthians 15:3–4).
That is the gospel. That is the dividing line. Not love as vague mysticism, but blood-bought redemption and living faith.
In conclusion, your framework replaces the gospel of grace with a Gnostic path of spiritual self-becoming. It denies the fall, bypasses the cross, distorts the Spirit, and mocks belief as speculation. But Scripture is clear:
“The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1 Corinthians 1:18).
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8).
Lay down mystical pride and receive the gift. Christ alone is the way. Not you. Not Adam. Not internal light. Christ crucified, risen, and reigning. Believe and live.
J.
First one has to understand who Christ is.
Christ comes from the Greek word χριστός (chrīstós), meaning “anointed one”. The word is derived from the Greek verb χρίω (chrī́ō), meaning “to anoint.” In the Greek Septuagint, χριστός was a semantic loan used to translate the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Mašíaḥ, messiah), meaning “[one who is] anointed”.
Paul came up with that term Christ at Antioch, before that in the old we who are anointed of Gods same Spirit of mind were referred to as Christos, saints.
The term saint is derived from the Latin word sanctus, meaning “holy” or “consecrated.” This is, in turn, a direct translation of the Greek word “άγιος” (hagios), which also means “holy.” In its original scriptural usage it simply means “holy” or “sanctified.”
And sanctified simply means to make holy; set apart as sacred; consecrate**
SO either one is that person of Christ anointed of Gods same Spirit of mind, or one is not, there is no in-between and it cannot be governed by mans laws from opinions. You are or you are not that person as Jesus became in Matt 3:16 when God Himself opened in that man Who He is and all of His heaven in that man just as He does in us all who become anointed by God Himself transforming a religious mind into a productive mind that of Love that God is and walks in it as He walks in it.
SO simple yet so difficult for a religious mind of laws to absorb. We are Christs – plural, and Christ is Gods. 1 Cor. 3;23. Jesus was Christ because he was anointed of God, Adam, Abraham, Moses Mary 120 all became that person anointed of Gods same mind, Spirit.
Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father ins heaven is perfect. Matt 5;48. Most see that as an impossibility and say, well’ Jesus was the only perfect child of God, and in that very statement eliminates them from being that person of Christ who is anointed of God Himself.
@ Johann – There is only one thing on this planet that never changes, it is static, was the same yesterday as it is today and will be the same tomorrow, everything else changes, everything, except Love, it never changes, and the God of the Bible simply is Love and the Spirit of it and man is the temple of it.
Jesus was very clear in this in Luke 17:20-21, the kingdom of God,(which is Love), does not come with observation, it is with you. Sadly very few believe Jesus at all in his statement do they?
Your statement attempts to reduce the entire gospel of the kingdom to a single attribute—love—as if love were God’s only essence, rather than one of His perfections. It also rips Luke 17:20–21 out of its eschatological context, misrepresents what Jesus meant by “the kingdom,” and flattens the biblical doctrine of God into a vague spiritualism that ignores the cross, judgment, and the call to repentance.
Let’s examine both your theology and the passage you appeal to.
- God is not only love
Yes, 1 John 4:8 declares “God is love,” but this is not an exhaustive definition—it is a statement about His moral character. The same apostle also says “God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all” (1 John 1:5). He is also “a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12:29), “the Judge of all the earth” (Genesis 18:25), and “holy, holy, holy” (Isaiah 6:3).
To isolate one attribute—agapē—and treat it as the sum total of God’s nature is to commit theological reductionism, which collapses God’s righteous justice and holiness into sentimental abstraction. The God of the Bible is not simply an impersonal “Spirit of Love.” He is the LORD, revealed through covenant, judgment, and the cross. He is not static love floating in human temples. He is the God who kills and makes alive (Deuteronomy 32:39), who sends fire on Sodom, who raises the dead, and who will judge the world in righteousness by the Man He appointed (Acts 17:31).
- Luke 17:20–21 does not teach inward mysticism
You claim Jesus said, “the kingdom of God (which is Love)… is within you.” But this mistranslates and misapplies the passage.
Here is the full text:
“The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is ἐντὸς ὑμῶν.” (Luke 17:20–21)
First, the Greek phrase ἐντὸς ὑμῶν can mean “in your midst” rather than “within you.” Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees, who reject Him. He is not saying the kingdom is spiritually inside their hearts. That would contradict His own rebukes (Luke 11:39–44).
Instead, the meaning is clear: “The kingdom is already among you”—that is, in the person and presence of Jesus Christ, the King. He is standing there. They are missing it.
The kingdom is not a hidden inner love state. It is the reign of God breaking into history, first in Jesus’ first coming, and fully in His return. Jesus goes on to say in Luke 17:24–25 that the Son of Man will come like lightning across the sky, and must suffer and be rejected first—hardly inward mysticism.
So your reading guts the urgency and sharpness of Jesus’ kingdom message. The real kingdom demands repentance (Mark 1:15), comes with power (Luke 9:27), and will culminate in visible glory (Luke 21:27).
- Love is not unchanging in us
You say love never changes. But that is false anthropologically and biblically. Human love is fallen, fractured, and sinful. 2 Timothy 3:2–4 warns of a generation of men who are “lovers of self” and “not lovers of God.” Love can be corrupted, misdirected, and even counterfeit. That is why Romans 5:5 says that the love of God is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit—we don’t possess it naturally.
If God’s love in man were an innate, changeless static force, there would be no need for conversion, sanctification, or the indwelling Spirit. But Paul says in Galatians 5:22 that love is the fruit of the Spirit, not a human default.
We are not temples of love. We become temples of the Holy Spirit after regeneration, by faith in the crucified and risen Lord.
- The real kingdom requires the real cross
You offer a kingdom without a cross, a god of love without justice, and a gospel of inward feeling without repentance and faith. But Christ says, “Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). The kingdom is not a mood or a mystical state—it is the reign of God through Christ, received by faith, transforming the life, and preparing the soul for the day of judgment.
So no, the kingdom is not a static love state inside everyone. It is the reign of the risen King, already present in Christ, breaking into hearts through the gospel, and coming again in power and glory.
Beware a theology that tells sinners they are already filled with divine love while rejecting the Lord who bore wrath for their sin. The gospel is not that we already are love, but that God demonstrates His love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). That is the love that saves. All else is illusion.
J.
@Mac, I have some questions:
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In your belief system, are you what used to be called a New Age or, more recently, Higher Consciousness believer? Yes or no. If not, why do you sound like one?
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In your mind, is Jesus the Christ or Anointed One as the Messiah, who died and rose again? Yes or no.
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Do you believe that Jesus became God at his baptism and that he was merely human before then? Yes or no.
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Why do you clothe your pantheistic ideas, if they are that, in the guise of Greek and Hebrew? Are you a seminary professor? If so, where are you a professor?
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It appears to me that you are saying that with the right enlightenment, we are all Christs, that is, with higher consciousness people who can ascend to higher planes just by becoming aware of the deity we have within us. Is that what you believe? Yes or no. If so, how do you know those ideas?
I eagerly await your answers to my questions so that we can have a discussion.
Your response redefines “Christ” as a generic spiritual state rather than the singular, incarnate Son of God, misrepresents the origin of the title, and ultimately preaches a Christ-less gospel of self-anointing mysticism. It subtly divorces the identity of Jesus from the historical gospel and collapses salvation into inward enlightenment rather than atonement and faith in the crucified and risen Lord.
Let’s expose the error and clarify the truth with Scripture and proper exegesis.
- Christ is not a class of anointed beings, He is the unique, eternal Son
Yes, Χριστός (Christos) in Greek means “anointed one,” translating מָשִׁיחַ (Mashiach), and yes, the Spirit descended on Jesus in Matthew 3:16. But to claim that anyone who receives the Spirit becomes “Christ” in the same way Jesus is Christ is a category error.
Scripture is clear:
“There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).
“To us there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist” (1 Corinthians 8:6).
He is not one “Christ” among many. He is “the Christ” (ho Christos)—the only begotten Son, eternally begotten of the Father, not adopted or transformed.
“Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God” (Matthew 16:15–16).
Jesus did not say, “You too are Christ”—He said, “Blessed are you, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you…”
The gospel declares that Jesus is the Christ, not that we become Christs. We are His body, yes, but not Him.
- Believers are sanctified in Christ, not re-Christed by inner awakening
Yes, saints are ἅγιοι, those made holy. But believers are sanctified in Christ Jesus, not by personal mystical transformation. Paul says:
“To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints…” (1 Corinthians 1:2)
“You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11)
The Holy Spirit does not reveal that we are Christ. He reveals Jesus is Lord (1 Corinthians 12:3), and conforms us to His image, not replaces it (Romans 8:29). There is no doctrine of self-Christing in Scripture. That is Gnosticism wrapped in Christian terms.
- Matthew 3:16 is the baptism of the sinless Son, not your blueprint
At Jesus’ baptism, the heavens opened for Him, the Spirit descended on Him, and the Father declared:
“This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:17)
That statement is not made of you or me. That is divine affirmation of the pre-existent Son, now revealed publicly. John the Baptist says in John 1:33 that the One on whom he saw the Spirit descend is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Jesus receives the Spirit as the Messiah, and then gives the Spirit to His Church.
To say Adam, Abraham, Moses, Mary, and the 120 were “the Christ” because they were anointed is heretical. They were God’s servants, not God’s Son. Christ is not a transferable identity. It is a person.
- 1 Corinthians 3:23 doesn’t say we are Christs, it says we belong to Christ
You quote 1 Corinthians 3:23: “Ye are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.” But Paul is explicitly saying we belong to Christ, not that we are Christ. The context rebukes factions in Corinth who were dividing over human teachers. Paul is re-centering their identity in Christ alone, not promoting self-deification.
If you read the full sentence:
“So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours… and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.” (1 Corinthians 3:21–23)
This affirms a chain of possession, not identity. We are of Christ, not Christ.
- Matthew 5:48 is a command grounded in grace, not proof of divinization
Yes, “Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect” (Matt 5:48) is in Scripture. But that doesn’t mean you are or become the Christ. The Sermon on the Mount sets an impossible standard, not to awaken divinity within us, but to drive us to hunger and thirst for righteousness (Matt 5:6), to cry out for mercy (Matt 5:7), and to enter the narrow gate through Christ alone (Matt 7:13–14).
Final Blow: You preach another gospel
The gospel is not: “Become the Christ.”
The gospel is:
“God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
“To all who received Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God…” (John 1:12)
We are not Christs. We are sinners saved by grace, made sons in the Son, called to walk in holiness by the Spirit, looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, not our reflection.
This mystic redefinition of Christ is another gospel, and Paul warns in Galatians 1:8–9:
“Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.”
Repent of this self-anointed gospel. Come back to the crucified Christ, who died for sinners, was buried, and raised, so that in Him, we may live. You are not the Christ. He is. Believe and be saved.
J.
Christ is the state of man who is anointed of Gods Holy Spirit, that of Love that God is. You never have met Him have you? There is no redefinition, Christ = Gods anointing in man, that of Love. Holy Love or Holy Spirit thy GOD IS.
And it does not divorce Jesus from being anointed of God at all. It connect that man to God just as it does to us alll who bask in that same anointing that you are supposed to be of yourself.
Christ is the class of man who is anointed of God by the same mind be in you who was in Jesus. If you do not have that same anointing as Jesus received from Him in Matt 3:16 then you are none of His at all.
It is obvious that you do not believe Matt 3:16 where God opened up in Jesus who He is and all of His heaven ion that man.
As far as a mediator here is who Jesus said he was in God. I do not follow Timothy, I do not follow Paul I do not follow any man, only who Jesus said he was in God. Read who he said he was in God and call him a liar as it seems that you are doing here in your rebuttal against Jesus in who Jesus said he was in God.
John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.
John****7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joihn 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come withj observation, it is withn you
John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Matt 11:25. At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
John 17:22 (KJV) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
But Jesus was the Christ among many who are anointed of God which is Christ in us. Evidently you separate yourself from who Jesus said he was in God and who you are supposed to be the same. You don’t have a clue why God sent that man do you? He came to show you the way that obviously you reject of him.
Jesus gospel does declare that he was the Christ anointed of his God that he called Father just as all who bask in that same anointing are. May I ask you why you reject so great a salvation in yourself?
Do this if you will. take everything out of the Bible that man said about Jesus and God and read only who Jesus Sia he was in God, and I guarantee you that you willl have a completely different gospel from the one that you are teaching. Try it and see. All that you see of it is mans own interpretations of it and added into a bible and edited by man over and over.
Pre existing son of God? All who are born of God has not existed until you are born of God as Jesus became in Matt 3:16 and said that you yourself must be born again with that same renewing of your mind that Jesus was renewed with in Matt 3;16. Are you saying that really didn’t happen in Jesus and God did not open in him all of His heaven in that man?
As far as reading the full sentence I do not follow Paul I follow Jesus. You are Pauline not Christian.
And Matt 5;48 is a commandment for you that obviously you have no intention of following, for you make up excuses not to be perfect as God is perfect which simply is Love. Only Love is perfect and never changes, everything else changes, everything!
You say we are not Christs, so what you really mean is that you are not of Christ and not anointed of Gods Holy Spirit of mind to walk as He walks in it and I would bet that the same signs do not follow;low you as they do those who are anointed of God. that really is what you are saying here.
you should start listening to Jesus instead of Paul and others who only gave you their own opinions about it.
Your argument is a theological sleight of hand: it redefines “Christ” as a spiritual state, rejects apostolic authority, denies the eternal Sonship of Jesus, and replaces the gospel of grace with self-anointed mysticism. Let’s dismantle it concisely and scripturally.
- Christ is not a class or state, it is the name of the Son of God
The term Christos (χριστός) means “Anointed One,” but in the NT, it never refers to a category of people. It always refers to a person, Jesus of Nazareth.
“Peter said, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’” (Matthew 16:16)
“These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name.” (John 20:31)
Nowhere does the NT ever say, “We are all Christ.” It says we are in Christ (Romans 8:1), belong to Christ (1 Cor 3:23), and are being conformed to His image (Rom 8:29). But Christ remains one Lord (Eph 4:5), not many selves.
- Jesus was not “made Christ” at His baptism, He was already the Son
Matthew 3:16 does not mark the moment Jesus became Christ or became divine. It is His public anointing for ministry, not His ontological transformation.
“In the beginning was the Word… and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)
“The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” (John 1:14)
This refutes your claim that Jesus only became the Christ at baptism. The Son pre-existed. He was not a man who reached God-consciousness. He is God incarnate.
- You reject Scripture by rejecting the apostles, especially Paul
Saying “I don’t follow Paul” is saying “I don’t follow the Spirit of God.” Paul’s words are not opinions, they are Scripture.
“All Scripture is God-breathed…” (2 Timothy 3:16)
“When you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13)
Peter affirms Paul’s letters as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15–16). To follow Jesus is to receive those He sent (John 13:20). Your “only Jesus” claim is false piety that leads to heresy.
- You replace salvation with self-realization
You say, “We are Christ,” “you must be anointed,” “you become divine.” That is not the gospel. The gospel is:
“Christ died for our sins… was buried… was raised on the third day.” (1 Corinthians 15:3–4)
“To all who received Him… He gave the right to become children of God.” (John 1:12)
You preach gnosticism, not Christianity. Gnostics said salvation comes from inner awakening and mystical self-discovery. Scripture says salvation comes through faith in the crucified and risen Lord.
- You misuse John’s gospel to create your own gospel
You quote John 12, 14, 17 to say that Jesus was just a conduit of divine mind. But John begins with:
“The Word was God… and the Word became flesh.” (John 1:1, 14)
Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). That’s YHWH language. He didn’t become divine, He always was.
- You twist Matthew 5:48 into self-perfectionism
“Be perfect as your Father is perfect” is not a call to self-divinization. It is a call to radical, Spirit-enabled holiness. Jesus then tells us to pray for mercy, seek the narrow gate, and build on His words, not ours (Matt 6–7).
Perfection comes not from self-anointing, but from abiding in Christ and being sanctified by the Spirit (Hebrews 10:14, 1 Peter 1:2).
- You accuse without gospel fruit
You accuse others of rejecting “so great a salvation” while peddling a false salvation: not the blood of the cross, but your own enlightenment. You deny substitution, twist Scripture, ignore the apostles, and elevate your inner self.
“If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:9)
Conclusion:
You are not Christ. You are a sinner in need of Christ.
Jesus is not a man who found God. He is God who came to save man.
Salvation is not realizing you are divine. It is repenting and receiving the only Son of God.
Repent and believe the gospel, before the one you claim to imitate says to you, “Depart from Me, I never knew you.” (Matthew 7:23)
J.
@Mac
Your theology is dangerously muddled, built not on the Word of God but on cherry-picked verses, carnal reasoning, and denial of Christ’s divine identity. You twist Christ’s humility into a demotion and turn the cross into a classroom of enlightenment instead of a place of atonement. You are not defending Jesus, you are accusing Him of lying, stripping Him of His eternal glory, and preaching another gospel.
Let’s rebuke this error sharply and scripturally.
- You blaspheme by denying that Jesus is God
You claim Jesus is not God but merely a man who received enlightenment in Matthew 3:16. That is a lie. Jesus did not become divine at His baptism. He was the eternal Son of God before Bethlehem, before John the Baptist, and before Abraham.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)
“Before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58)
“Thomas answered Him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28)
“In Him dwells all the fullness of Deity bodily.” (Colossians 2:9)
If Jesus is not God, then the blood shed on the cross was powerless, and we are still in our sins. But praise be to God, He was declared to be the Son of God in power by His resurrection from the dead (Romans 1:4).
- Your use of John’s Gospel is self-defeating
You quote Jesus saying He does nothing of Himself, speaks not of His own will, and submits to the Father—yes, because He is the eternal Son, not because He lacks divinity.
The Son’s submission is not inferiority, it is part of the eternal perichoresis (mutual indwelling) of the Trinity. The Son is begotten, not made, and coequal with the Father in substance (homoousios).
“He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9)
“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)
“All should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.” (John 5:23)
To deny Jesus is God is to call the apostles, the prophets, and Jesus Himself liars. That is not reverence—it is blasphemy.
- You preach another gospel
You deny Jesus as Mediator, reject the apostles (especially Paul), and replace the cross with mystical self-realization. But Scripture says:
“There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5)
“If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:9)
You say Jesus is “just a man anointed.” The gospel says He is the Christ, the Son of the living God (Matt 16:16). You say, “I don’t follow Paul.” The Lord says, “If anyone thinks he is spiritual, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 14:37)
- You do not understand Matthew 3:16
Matthew 3:16 is not the moment Jesus became divine—it is the public anointing of the eternal Son for ministry. The Spirit descending is the sign, not the cause, of His Sonship.
“This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matt 3:17)
He was already the Son before His baptism. He was born of the virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit, worshiped by angels at His birth (Luke 2:13), and called the Mighty God in prophecy (Isaiah 9:6).
- You attack the Church to exalt yourself
You pit Jesus against His apostles, spirit against Scripture, “inner revelation” against doctrine. This is not humility—it is arrogance. Scripture does not praise those who toss aside the apostles. It warns:
“They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him.” (Titus 1:16)
“They went out from us, but they were not of us.” (1 John 2:19)
To follow Jesus is to receive the apostles He sent (John 13:20), and believe the gospel they preached (Acts 2:42). You reject both.
Final Rebuke:
You have not honored Christ. You have reduced Him to a mystic example. You have not believed His gospel. You have substituted your feelings and dreams for His Word. And you have not received the Spirit—you have grieved Him by calling the crucified Lord “just a man.”
Repent. Bow the knee. Confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:11). Otherwise, your gospel of self will perish with you.
“Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist—he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.” (1 John 2:22–23)
J.
#1 – Actually I do not have a belief system. Beliefs are not real, only speculations and anyone can believe anything about a god.
The truth comes by God Himself and no other way. All man can do is give you opinions about it, but all that changes when God Himself come to you and opens in you the same as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16, Same Spirit came to Adam in Gen 3;22, same Spirit came to Abraham, same Spirit came to Moses, Mary, 120 in an upper room, and same Spirit comes to us all who will let Him instead of dictating to a god of their own liking.
#2 – in Gods mind, not our own mind, it is He who opens up a new heaven and earth with you. It isn’t something that we gradually learn into it, it come in the twinkling of an eye just as it did in all of these we read of. Jesus was the Christ only because he was anointed of God, just as all are of Christ who bask in that same anointing from God Himself. Jesus dies by the hands of men only because they could not relate to a living God who resides in man.
As far as the man Jesus, he is no longer with us and has been gone for over 2000 years. Aww but what is risen is the Spirit, the mind, of that man and is alive in all today who will receive that same anointing. Flesh will return to the elements that is is mad of, but the spirit of is what remains and is alive.
#3 – Jesus became God? No man is a god least you are as the Egyptians or Greek who also worshiped men as gods.
Thet spirit who came to Jesus and opened up all of who He is and all of His heaven is not a man, man is only the recipient of Him. Jesus was very clear in that in Luke 17:20-21, the kingdom of God does not come with observation it is with you. if you are looking for a man to come a s god, you never will meet the One who is a Spirit and comes to reside in man and Jesus was no exception, proven in Matt 3:16.
#4 – Cloth myself with pantheistic ideas? God simply is a Spirit of Love for God is Love and man is the temple of Him, the place only Love resides. That seems very hard for you to understand considering that elementary reply for Pantheism. God is not of this world. and we who has that same Spirit of mins are not of this world, we are in it but not of it, we are of Love that is not of this physical world at all.
#5 – One cannot be of Christ without that same enlightenment from God that all of these we read of who God came and enlightened them by the Spirit of mind that He is.
This isn’t rocket science, all one has to do is obey as all of these did who received from God and receive in yourself the very same Spirit be in you who was in Christ Jesus and all these others who became anointed of the same God as Jesus received.
by the replies from many here, it is obvious they never have had that personal contact with God.
John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”
Either one is a child of God and sees what He does of one is not. Paul even tried to adopt himself into Gods family by law, instead of being born into it. And a whole lot more follow Paul oil his ideas and teachings that they ecver did of Jesus to be born of God themselves.
John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
It is clear that many here seem to believe what Jesus had to say who we are suppose do be in the Father does it?
@Mac
Your entire argument floats on a cloud of mysticism, not Scripture. It’s not revelation, it’s reinvention—shrouded in pious jargon and stripped of apostolic truth. Let’s cut through the fog:
#1 – “Beliefs are not real”?
False. Scripture does not degrade belief—it exalts it. “Without faith [πίστεως] it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6). Jesus says, “Whoever believes in me has eternal life” (John 6:47). Faith is not speculation—it’s trust in divine revelation. You denounce belief while spouting your own private creed—one based not on the gospel but on a personal spiritual experience devoid of Christ crucified. That’s not heavenly truth. That’s new age mysticism with a Christian paint job.
#2 – “God opens a new heaven and earth in you, instantly”?
Your “twinkling” theology divorces grace from repentance, glory from Golgotha. Scripture doesn’t teach enlightenment by zap—it teaches new birth through the word of truth (James 1:18), by the gospel (1 Peter 1:23–25). Jesus didn’t become Christ in Matthew 3:16—He was the eternal Son before He ever touched Jordan’s waters (John 1:1, 14). His baptism was not His awakening—it was His anointing as the Lamb who would die (John 1:29).
#3 – “Jesus was just a man, no longer with us”?
You just denied the resurrection. Paul warns: “If Christ is not raised, your faith is futile” (1 Cor 15:17). Jesus is not some abstract “spirit of love” floating around. He rose bodily (Luke 24:39), He ascended bodily (Acts 1:9), and He will return bodily (Acts 1:11). Your “Jesus” is a disembodied moral idea, not the risen Lord who conquered death and reigns as Judge.
#4 – “God is Love, not flesh, so we are all divine?”
Pantheistic nonsense dressed up in 1 John 4:8. God is love, yes—but not only love. He is also holy, just, and wrathful (Romans 1:18). You reduce His personhood to a vague energy, erasing His justice, denying His Triune nature, and placing “the divine” inside every person indiscriminately. That’s not Christian doctrine. That’s Gnosticism reborn.
#5 – “We are Christ because we are anointed too”?
You just blurred the line between the Anointed One and His people. Christ is not a class of people. Christ is the person of Jesus—the μονογενής, the Only Begotten (John 1:18). Believers are in Christ, yes, but we are not Christ Himself. To equate yourself with Him is blasphemy. We are not mediators (1 Timothy 2:5), redeemers, or incarnations of God—we are recipients of mercy.
You quote John 5:19 and John 16:23 as if they support your view. They don’t. They show that Jesus—the eternal Son—perfectly obeys the Father and grants access to Him through His name, not yours. You claim to bypass Christ’s work, dismiss His death, and exalt yourself to divine status. That’s not Christianity—it’s self-deification.
Final shot—your gospel has no cross.
You mock Paul for preaching law and “adoption” but Paul preached Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 1:23). You preach inner light, Paul preached blood-bought redemption. The apostles pointed to a resurrected Lord, you point inward. That’s not salvation—it’s deception.
Galatians 1:8 applies here:
“Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.”
Repent, and believe the real gospel—not the one you made up in your head.
J.
Those laws are fulfilled the very moment that God who is Love becomes your own mind. They are no longer laws but who we are without trying to follow some law but being that living example of. It is who we are, not what we try and be by some law. Love they neighbor as thyself isn’t and effort if God who is Love is your own disposition.
Religious minds comes to me with the demand that I believe this or that and follow this law or that. The spiritual minded comes to me with the demand that I square my life with God Who is Love and walk in it as He walks in it. Jesus learned this very lesson in Matt 3:16. Before God open in him who He is and all of His heaven, he was of mans laws for a god, that of the Jews and was rabbi of it even from a young age, after he was like the God of it who is Love, the Spirit of.
Only then after the renewing of his mind by God Himself did he say, Ye must be born again with that same renewing, a whole new education that is not taught by man but by God Himself.
Not many are actually born again with that same renewing of mind are they, they only say they are by law instead.
@Mac, can you explain to me in clear, plain English what you mean about Jesus’ baptism when you say:
Jesus learned this very lesson in Matt 3:16. Before God open in him who He is and all of His heaven, he was of mans laws for a god, that of the Jews and was rabbi of it even from a young age, after he was like the God of it who is Love, the Spirit of.
I want to understand your thoughts, but they are unclear to me.
@Bruce Absolutely. Jesus was of the law of the Jews and taught it even from a young age. He was reverened for his ability to teach it as Rabbi. He was under the jewish beliefs under their laws for that belief.
The very moment that Jesus obeyed and received from the GHod of Love, everything changed for him, God opened up a new heaven and earth, all of Gods heaven was opened to him. Read it in Matt 3:16, Some here seem to say that is a lie or that really didn’t happen and Jesus didn’t need God to do that in him.
And look what happened to Jesus after he received the truth from God Himself, did not the very ones he once taught as Rabbi, after Matt 3;16 are the very ones who had him crucified for blaspheme, a liar, a traitor, agai8nbst their own ideas for a god?
It is the very same today. Just as with then today he is falsely accused of being God, Jesus was very clear that he was not God onely anointed of Gods Love.
Here is what Jesus himself had to say about those very false accusations of him claiming to be God. He was innocent of those false charges just as he is innocent of the same today. Those ho accuse him of being God are actually calling him a blasphemer, he never ever said he was God and not Gods child His son. and here is what he said about that himself. read it.
John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.
John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joihn 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come withj observation, it is withn you
John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Matt 11:25. At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jesus prayed to his God numerous times, especially a long prayer to God in John 17 that the Father be in you and you be in Him as one as He was in Jesus and Jesus was ion Him as one.
Religious mind only see a god of flesh, and cannot relate at all to the God who is a Spirit and resides in man.
Jesus was very clear in Luke 17:20-21 where Gods kingdom is and said, it does not come with observation, it is within you. How do Jesus come to that conclusion? He experienced it from God Himself in Matt 3:16. And so do all who has experienced that same revelation from God Himself.
Mac, you’ve pasted a parade of verses as if Scripture is a buffet line and context is optional. But brother, Jesus didn’t come to be your example of God-consciousness. He came to be your Lord. The difference between quoting Jesus and actually understanding Him is the difference between Judas and John.
You keep saying you’re just quoting Jesus. No, you’re not. You’re quoting Him through the lens of a theology that guts the cross and elevates man. You read “the Father sent me” and hear “I’m just like you.” But Jesus said “I came down from heaven.” Unless you started your life in glory too, maybe pump the brakes on the “same Spirit, same walk” declarations.
Let’s get this straight. Jesus is not merely a man anointed by God. He is the eternal Word made flesh (John 1:1, 14). He didn’t become Christ at the Jordan. He is Christ, from everlasting to everlasting. That dove at the baptism wasn’t His induction into divinity. It was confirmation for the crowds. Heaven didn’t make Him divine—it declared what had always been true.
Now about this “God is in you because you found Him there” talk. That’s not Jesus. That’s spiritualized self-help. You quoted John 17 like it’s proof that you and Jesus are interchangeable. But read the whole thing. He says, “that they may be one as we are one.” That’s unity of purpose, not fusion of identity. He never said you are God. He said you are in relationship with God—if you’re in Him.
And your swipe at Paul? Child, please. Paul saw the risen Christ with eyes that burned with glory. The Holy Spirit inspired his words. You don’t get to pit Jesus against Paul like you’re choosing teams. That’s not discernment. That’s division. You’re tossing out the apostolic foundation of the faith and calling it spiritual maturity. That’s not deeper revelation. That’s doctrinal drift.
The Spirit isn’t earned by obedience like some divine allowance. Galatians 3:2 says plainly: “Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?” You receive the Spirit by grace, not by spiritual performance.
You say flesh is just the vessel God lives in. Scripture says flesh is at war with the Spirit. Yes, God indwells His people. But the Spirit isn’t your soul’s roommate just because you welcomed Him with a mantra and a mystical glow. He comes by regeneration, by repentance, by the work of Christ—not because you invited Him into your superior inner light.
You say you follow Jesus. Then why do you rewrite what He meant? He wasn’t just a mirror. He was the sacrifice. He wasn’t just a moral model. He was the Lamb of God. And He’s not “just the first of many divine sons.” He’s the only begotten Son, full stop.
You’ve crafted a gospel where Jesus is just the first enlightened one and you’re next in line. But the real Gospel doesn’t stroke egos. It slays them. The cross kills your self-worship and resurrects you in His life, not your own glory.
You quote verses like armor, but wear them backward. Jesus said, “I am the way.” You seem to think you are too.
Repent not just of sin, but of this idol made in your own image.
—Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.
One can’t know God at all least He come to you Himself and open in you who He is and all of His heaven in you. Not even Jesus could escape this fact proven in Matt 3:16.
Beliefs about a god are not real, only speculations.
The stark reality of knowing God is when you see Him as He is as all of these we read of saw He who is a Spirit and became like Him to know this difference with that renewing of mind started in Adam proven in Gen 3:22. Abraham, Moses, Mary, Jesus in Matt 3:16, 120 in n upper room all became like Him, and in 1 John 3 we read that when you yourself see Him as He really is, ye shall be like Him just as all of these became like Him.
Question is --are you like Him, in His same image that He creates man to be by the Spirit of Love that God is, and do you walk in it as all of these became we read of? If not, then your own salvation is in question.
Boundaries are set by you. Only you can restrict what God has offered us to be like Him and in His same image. Even Jesus shun those boundaries set by the Jewish beliefs for a god that he taught those boundaries as rabbi even from a young age, in Matt 3:16. And ironic is the very boundaries that he was rabbi of are the very boundaries that had him crucified for blaspheme when God Himself broke those boundaries.
It is in your hands just as it was in Jesus hands and he made the decision to step out of the parameter of those boundaries and learn the truth of it from the Author of it. Proven in Matt 3:16.
@ Samuel 23. Theology is only a study of mans beliefs about a god, and one can believe anything about a god proven in all the different denominations and belief systems claiming to know a truth.
The only reality of the God of heaven, which simply is Love and man is the kingdom in which He lives, is when one meets this reality and becomes your own disposition of mind. Until that actually happens within, that renewing of mind that only Love itself can manifest without biased ideas or wants or laws based on noting but speculations, beliefs, cancels out all beliefs and reality sets in.
Beliefs are not real, beliefs are mans own ideas and one can believe anything about a god. Truth comes only when one becomes in the same image of.