"Lost-In-Translation" Questions That Beg Answers

Theology
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Q: Why, oh why, is there such a convoluted and needless confusion among varrious Bible Translations?!

:book: :thinking::red_question_mark:

Exampe: 2 Kings 9:8

King James Version
“For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel.”

See how that could be confusing to an uncrass mind? Pisseth on a wall? Shut up and left in Israel? Let’s look at another version, same verse… Perhaps common english will clear it up.

Common English Bible
“Ahab’s whole family will die. I will elimnate from Ahab everyone who urinates on a wall, wether slave or free, in Israel.”

Still confusing… why pick on urinaters and pissethers on a wall? When you gotta go, you gotta go, no?! And now we have gone from being “cut off” to being “eliminated”. Yikes! Let’s try another version then.

New King James Version
“For the whole house of Ahab shall perish; and I will cut off from Ahab all the males in Israel, both bond and free.”

Ohh, so now that makes more sense… because women don’t pisseth against walls. But now we’re back to being “cut off”.

:face_with_spiral_eyes:

Now, I personally understand what is going on as I have fully read it, but what I don’t get is why “modern” translators don’t just write clearer, and more plain. Why be obscure in the translations? Yeah, I know, KJV is old, but why such descrepency and reversions to bad translations in newer translations? Should people have to flick back and forth between several versions of a Bible just to get a grasp on the scriptures or is that God’s plan to make us delve deeper? Do most people even really own more than one tangable version of the Bible? And don’t even get me started on why Matthew 1:25 was befuddeling to me when I was 14…

:exploding_head:
But you just said they did know each other!!!

Anyways. Imagine how dense I felt when I figured that one out.

So I guess what I really want to know is… Is there a perfect translation? What’s the worst? Why do you think so? What verse(s) if any confuse(d) you?

ˏˋ ✞ ˎˊ

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The wording in the Greek Septuagint differs slightly in form but conveys the same idiomatic meaning as the Hebrew text. The passage corresponding to the KJV wording appears in the judgment oracle against the house of Ahab in ~1 Kings 21:21. The Hebrew Masoretic text uses a vivid idiom meaning “every male,” which the Greek translators rendered with a direct equivalent rather than paraphrasing it.

The Greek Septuagint text reads approximately as follows.

1 Kings 21:21 (LXX)[1]

A literal translation of the Greek reads essentially

“Behold I am bringing evils upon you, and I will sweep away your posterity, and I will destroy from Ahab the one urinating against a wall, and the one shut up and the one left in Israel.”

Several lexical observations clarify how the Septuagint translators handled the Hebrew.

The phrase corresponding to the Hebrew idiom is οὐροῦντα πρὸς τοῖχον.
The participle οὐροῦντα comes from the verb οὐρέω, meaning “to urinate.”
The phrase πρὸς τοῖχον means “against a wall.”

Thus the Greek translators did not soften the Hebrew idiom. They translated it very literally, preserving the same vivid expression. In both Hebrew and Greek the phrase simply functions as a coarse idiomatic way to denote every male in the household.

The next phrase in Greek is συγκλειόμενον καὶ καταλελειμμένον.

συγκλειόμενον derives from συγκλείω, meaning “to shut up,” “to confine,” or “to restrain.”
καταλελειμμένον comes from καταλείπω, meaning “to leave behind” or “to remain.”

This pair mirrors the Hebrew merism “shut up and left,” a stock formula used in the historical books to describe everyone remaining without exception, whether socially constrained or free.

The same judgment formula appears multiple times in the Hebrew historical narrative when God announces the extinction of a corrupt royal dynasty. The Septuagint consistently translates the idiom in the same way. Examples appear in ~1 Kings 14:10 concerning Jeroboam’s house and ~1 Kings 16:11 concerning Baasha’s house. In each case the Greek retains the expression οὐροῦντα πρὸς τοῖχον.

Within the narrative context of ~1 Kings 21 the statement forms part of the prophetic condemnation delivered by Elijah after the judicial murder of Naboth. Because Ahab and Jezebel abused royal authority to seize Naboth’s inheritance and institutionalized Baal worship in Israel, the oracle announces the complete eradication of Ahab’s male lineage. Historically the prophecy is fulfilled during the revolt of Jehu described in ~2 Kings 9–10, where the entire house of Ahab is eliminated.

Therefore the Septuagint reading confirms the Hebrew sense rather than altering it. The Greek translators reproduced the idiom almost word for word, preserving the vivid expression to emphasize that the judgment concerns the total destruction of every male descendant of Ahab’s dynasty.

J.

  1. Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐπάγω ἐπὶ σὲ κακὰ καὶ ἐξαρῶ τὰ ὀπίσω σου καὶ ἐξολεθρεύσω τοῦ Ἀχαὰβ οὐροῦντα πρὸς τοῖχον καὶ συγκλειόμενον καὶ καταλελειμμένον ἐν Ἰσραήλ. - LXX ↩︎

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One comment I will make about this issue of seemingly contradictory or confusing Scripture translations is that I think we in our modern era often miss the fact that the Bible is chock-full of metaphors and analogies. So, I think a lot of the confusion comes from when we try to read something literally when the writer’s intent is to communicate a message using figurative language. This, of course, doesn’t mean that it is untrue. On the contrary, metaphors, analogies, parables, and other figurative language are often more effective at communicating truths than straight dogma. However, in our modern times, I think we have lost a lot of that context.

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Thank you for your insightful assessment. I fully agree with you on that there Sister. (I blame the millennials, but I am one by 5 months 8 days, so there is that.) That’s why it took me well into my 30’s to start realy grasping a lot of it. As a child, I never really had a patient teacher willing to explain that. I am a very literal person by nature and so metaphors and analogies just go over my head unless I am on the look-out for them.

So, is there a translation that presents explanations in the footnotes or words it in an understandable way; a ‘perfect translation’ if you will, that you would recommend? Are there translations to avoid because they are confusing? Any confusing verse(s) that threw you for a loop personally?

Those were my questions in the topics orignal post, the rest above it was just an example and not the main issue. Sorry if that went over anyones head.
:grin:

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All current Greek manuscripts were done out of 4th century translating. 4TH century translating is altered and error filled. Back when the protestants translated, it was not so easy to learn facts about certain truths. Thus they could not fix much though they tried. Like at John 1:1, the only other spot in NT where more than 1 is called God and god=2Cor 4:4–The Word and satan both got the same Greek word=god, the true God at both spots got a different Greek word=God, thus if the Word were capitol G God he would have gotten the same Greek word the true God got. That capitol G God error has mislead billions into darkness over the centuries. Other Greek scholars have a god at John 1:1, 3 had was divine, 1 had was godlike.

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So, which tanslations in current use are these in so that one may avoid them?

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So what are you saying John 1:1 should be capitalizedG for God?

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Every one that has removed Gods name= over 7000 spots against his will. They mislead. Wicked men by satans will removed Gods name, thus ones religions shows 100% whose will they support on that important matter. In The Lords prayer Jesus shows his Fathers name is the #1 issue for all involved.The ones with Gods name removed have errors translated in as well. Jesus gives 100% support to his Fathers will, thus would use a translation with his name put back. As do the true followers. Here is a major example of the misleading it causes–Joel 2:21-22- Those who call on the name of YHVH(Jehovah) will be saved. Quoted 2 x in NT-Acts 2:21-Romans 10:13–Since error bibles has LORD at Joel, it has Lord at both NT spots, thus all believe its the name Jesus that must be called on.

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So… that leaves which (if any) translations?

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הִנְנִ֨י מֵבִ֤י אֵלֶ֙יךָ֙ רָעָ֔ה וּבִעַרְתִּ֖י אַחֲרֶ֑יךָ וְהִכְרַתִּ֤י לְאַחְאָב֙ מַשְׁתִּ֣ין בְּקִ֔יר וְעָצ֥וּר וְעָז֖וּב בְּיִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃

I will bring disaster upon you. I will make a clean sweep of you, I will cut off from Israel every male belonging to Ahab, bond and free. *bond and free See note at 14.10.

וְנָתַתִּ֣י אֶת־בֵּיתְךָ֗ כְּבֵית֙ יָרׇבְעָ֣ם בֶּן־נְבָ֔ט וּכְבֵ֖ית בַּעְשָׁ֣א בֶן־אֲחִיָּ֑ה אֶל־הַכַּ֙עַס֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר הִכְעַ֔סְתָּ
וַֽתַּחֲטִ֖א אֶת־יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃

And I will make your house like the House of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the House of Baasha son of Ahijah, because of the provocation you have caused by leading Israel to sin.
וְגַ֨ם־לְאִיזֶ֔בֶל דִּבֶּ֥ר יְהֹוָ֖ה לֵאמֹ֑ר הַכְּלָבִ֛ים יֹאכְל֥וּ אֶת־אִיזֶ֖בֶל בְּחֵ֥ל יִזְרְעֶֽאל׃
And GOD has also spoken concerning Jezebel: ‘The dogs shall devour Jezebel in the field of Jezreel.

הַמֵּ֤ת לְאַחְאָב֙ בָּעִ֔יר יֹאכְל֖וּ הַכְּלָבִ֑ים וְהַמֵּת֙ בַּשָּׂדֶ֔ה יֹאכְל֖וּ ע֥וֹף הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃

All of Ahab’s line who die in the town shall be devoured by dogs, and all who die in the open country shall be devoured by the birds of the sky.’”

רַ֚ק לֹא־הָיָ֣ה כְאַחְאָ֔ב אֲשֶׁ֣ר הִתְמַכֵּ֔ר לַעֲשׂ֥וֹת הָרַ֖ע בְּעֵינֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֑ה אֲשֶׁר־הֵסַ֥תָּה אֹת֖וֹ אִיזֶ֥בֶל
אִשְׁתּֽוֹ׃

(Indeed, there never was anyone like Ahab, who committed himself to doing what was displeasing to GOD, at the instigation of his wife Jezebel.
וַיַּתְעֵ֣ב מְאֹ֔ד לָלֶ֖כֶת אַחֲרֵ֣י הַגִּלֻּלִ֑ים כְּכֹל֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָשׂ֣וּ הָאֱמֹרִ֔י אֲשֶׁר֙ הוֹרִ֣ישׁ יְהֹוָ֔ה מִפְּנֵ֖י בְּנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃ {פ}
He acted most abominably, straying after the fetishes just like the Amorites, whom GOD had dispossessed before the Israelites.)
וַיְהִי֩ כִשְׁמֹ֨עַ אַחְאָ֜ב אֶת־הַדְּבָרִ֤ים הָאֵ֙לֶּה֙ וַיִּקְרַ֣ע בְּגָדָ֔יו וַיָּשֶׂם־שַׂ֥ק עַל־בְּשָׂר֖וֹ וַיָּצ֑וֹם וַיִּשְׁכַּ֣ב בַּשָּׂ֔ק וַיְהַלֵּ֖ךְ אַֽט׃ {פ}
When Ahab heard these words, he rent his clothes and put sackcloth on his body. He fasted and lay in sackcloth and walked about subdued.
וַֽיְהִי֙ דְּבַר־יְהֹוָ֔ה אֶל־אֵלִיָּ֥הוּ הַתִּשְׁבִּ֖י לֵאמֹֽר׃
Then the word of GOD came to Elijah the Tishbite:
הֲֽרָאִ֔יתָ כִּֽי־נִכְנַ֥ע אַחְאָ֖ב מִלְּפָנָ֑י יַ֜עַן כִּֽי־נִכְנַ֣ע מִפָּנַ֗י לֹֽא־אָבִ֤י הָרָעָה֙ בְּיָמָ֔יו בִּימֵ֣י בְנ֔וֹ אָבִ֥יא הָרָעָ֖ה עַל־בֵּיתֽוֹ׃
“Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before Me? Because he has humbled himself before Me, I will not bring the disaster in his lifetime; I will bring the disaster upon his house in his son’s time.”

I Kings 21
Revised JPS, 2023

J.

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Well, this is totally not true, either, my friend. That statement is not historically or archaeologically accurate. The idea that all current Greek manuscripts come from 4th-century translations (and are therefore inherently corrupted) is a common misconception, but it doesn’t align with the physical evidence we have today.

We have manuscripts dating back to the 4th century. While the 4th century gave us famous, complete Bibles like Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, we possess over 50 papyri of the New Testament that date from the 2nd and 3rd centuries (the 100s and 200s AD).

P52 (The Rylands Papyrus): Dates to approximately 125–150 AD. It contains portions of the Gospel of John and was found in Egypt, proving the text had already spread far from its origin within decades of being written.

The Bodmer Papyri (P66, P75): These date to around 200 AD and contain large portions of John and Luke.

The Chester Beatty Papyri (P45, P46): Dating to roughly 200–250 AD, these contain most of the Pauline Epistles and the Gospels.

“Translating” vs. “Copying” It is important to distinguish between translation (changing languages) and transcription (copying the original language). The New Testament was written in Koine Greek.

The 4th-century scribes weren’t “translating” the Greek manuscripts into a new version; they were compiling and copying earlier Greek sources into large parchment volumes (codices).

We can compare these 4th-century copies to the 2nd-century papyri. While there are minor variations (spelling, word order), the consistency between them is remarkably high.

If we had only 4th-century manuscripts, your concern would carry more weight. However, because we have a “bridge” of papyri from the 2nd and 3rd centuries, we can see that the 4th-century copies were largely faithful to the texts circulating long before Constantine or the organized Church of the 4th century.

Links:

  1. CSNTM Manuscript Search: You can search by “GA Number” (e.g., P52, P46).
  2. The British Library (Codex Sinaiticus): View the full 4th-century “Sinaiticus” online. Papyrus 52 (P52): Housed at the John Rylands Library. Dated c. 125 AD, this is the oldest fragment of the Gospel of John.
  3. The Chester Beatty Papyri (P45, P46): Dated c. 200–250 AD. P46 contains the Pauline Epistles and was written 150 years before the 4th-century councils.
  4. The Bodmer Papyri (P66, P75): Dated c. 175–225 AD. Crucially, P75 is so similar to the 4th-century Codex Vaticanus that it proves the 4th-century scribes were copying a very stable, much older text.
  5. Biblical Archaeology Society (Dating the Oldest Manuscripts): An overview of how we date these fragments and what they tell us about the original text.
  6. The Center for New Testament Textual Studies (CNTTS): They provide the statistical data on “variants” (the errors you mentioned) to show that 99% of them are spelling/grammar issues that don’t change the meaning.

Don’t just accept my word, check out the information yourself.

Peter

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There are fragments older than the current Greek manuscripts but very little amount. All current Greek full Greek manuscripts were done from corrupted 4th century works. One needs to ask = Since Jesus Fathers will( Matt 7:21) is to have his name in his real bible, why does my religion refuse to give support to his will on that matter after Jesus showed all in the Lords prayer that his Fathers name is the #1 issue for all involved? Instead every trinity based religion condemned the New world translation for supporting Jesus’ Fathers will on that matter=darkness.

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So, @DaughterOfEve24, @Corlove13, @Servant1, @PeterC, What version(s) of the Bible do you each go by? Do you each own more than one version?

Me personally, I use kjv and amp. They work well together for me. I also use BibleGateway for their plethora of other versions. Anyone have a suggestion of a better translation? And have any verses ever been real confusing to you?

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https://www.vaticanlibrary.va/en/the-collections/the-bodmer-papyri.html
Not found.

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It somewhat depends on why I’m reading Scripture. If it is more for encouragement/comfort, I generally go with KJV or ESV because those are the translations I’m most familiar with and the ones I’ve used to memorize verses. If I am more looking to do a deeper study of Scripture, I like to use The Message or NLT or something that’s more thought for thought instead of word for word (alongside my usual ESV) because it helps me get out of a rut and see the passage with a new perspective or see things I hadn’t considered before. After reading the Bible for almost 25 years, I find that’s probably my biggest challenge—not assuming I know what a passage is saying, but leaving space for the Spirit to show me new and/or deeper insights. A new-to-me translation is often helpful with that.

There are also a ton of great Bible study resources on BibleStudyTools.com.

As far as verses that have confused me…there have definitely been quite a few. No one in particular is currently coming to mind. So much of my confusion, I find, is often due to reading something too literally or not understanding the context. If I look into those things, often the verse or passage that was confusing me becomes much more understandable.

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While I use kjv, I also use net.bible.orgclassic version..as a tool to look up words. And on that sight it has multiple versions too.

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Give e Sword a go, plenty modules free of charge. With LXX, Greek and Hebrew and many more.

J.

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Thank you for answering. I will have to look into the nlt.

This had always been my ‘hang-up’ until it finally set in that he Bible is a mix of parable, allegory, symbolism, etc.
Thanks for your biblestudytools.com tip, but I already have a BibleGateway account. They have way more stuff than the oEmbed below claims, and half again as many translations. Plus an audio Bible player. :slight_smile:

VS.

@Corlove13, I will look into www.net.bible.org/ later. Thanks.

1 Like
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Whatever works best for you to study the Bible! Biblestudytools does have an audio Bible, as well, in case you were interested!

1 Like
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"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

By stating that people will call him “Lord” at the final judgment, Jesus positions himself as the ultimate Judge. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament, that role is uniquely God’s.

The distinction between Jesus and “my Father” isn’t a distinction between “human” and “God,” but between two Persons within the Godhead. Jesus frequently uses “My Father” to indicate a unique, ontological relationship that no other human has.

He is arguing that acknowledging his Lordship verbally is meaningless if it isn’t backed by a life aligned with God’s will.

“On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.”

Do you remember what Jesus is talking about? Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give sight to the blind, in our case, share the Gospel, visit the sick in those in prision. Complete the “Great Commission.

Peter