When I was younger people would constantly talk about this being a physical mark, a chip on your hand. Now people seldom talk about it. Does anyone believe that it is a physical mark?
Me as well. Welcome.
Short answer? I donât know. I can give you some ways people think about it; it vastly differs depending on where they are from. Many scholars and theologians argue that the mark is purely symbolic. In this view, it represents a personâs allegiance and identity rather than a literal tattoo or chip.
Since most theologians donât believe God literally stamps foreheads, they argue the Beastâs mark is the same, a symbol of whose âauthorityâ a person follows in their thoughts or forehead, and actions or hands.
After researching a bit more, I found that some see it as a dark parody of the Jewish Phylacteries or Tefillin, which are worn on the arm and forehead to remind the faithful of Godâs laws. The âmarkâ would therefore symbolize a rejection of those laws.
Preterism is one of my new favorite groups to learn about. Preterists believe the prophecy already happened during the Roman Empire. Nero Caesar: Using a system called gematria, which is where letters have numerical values, the name âNero Caesarâ in Hebrew adds up to 666.
To buy or sell in the Roman marketplace, one often had to use currency featuring the image of the Emperor, who was worshipped as a god. Engaging in the economy was, in a sense, participating in the âbeastâsâ system.
I believe what most believe is a future event. It suggests a tangible, high-tech requirement for societal participation. Biometrics and Microchips: Proponents of this viewpoint point to things like RFID implants, Neuralink, or advanced biometric payment systems as the âinfrastructureâ for a literal mark.
The text mentions that without the mark, one cannot âbuy or sell.â Modern digital-only economies and programmable currencies (CBDCs) are often cited by those who believe the mark will be a physical, technological gatekeeper.
Iâm always open to corrections if I ever get something wrong. As I said, I may be sure of many things, but this is not one of them. I would love to hear othersâ opinions.
Peter
I see the events described in Revelation after chapter three as happening in the future. I also think they could have happened before the destruction of the temple if the nation had received Jesus as Messiah. However, the failure of Israel to receive her king allowed that present age of grace to happen.
When I was young people would speculated that the âmarkâ was some secret conspiracy (like social security numbers). However, when I read Revelation I got the impression that the people at the time are not so much secretly tricked, but actually proud. For this reason I consider that the mark will be prominent.
Iâve always thought of the mark as something physical. The word âmarkâ is used 8 times in the new testament; 7 of them in Revelation and once in Acts 17:29. In all cases it refers to something graven. Since its used to control buying and selling I donât see right now how it would be otherwise than something physically inserted into the hand or forehead. There will be many who reject the mark (tribulation saints) and they will be locked out of the economy.
This inserting of a micro chip is being used today in places like Sweden to gain entrance to your place of employment or for such things as paying for train fare. The vast majority of the population is happy with the system. It isnât getting the mark that condemns you, but what getting the mark means. Itâs tied in with the worship of the antichrist. Its signifies your commitment to loyalty and worship of the beast.
The mark = physical support or mental support.
No, I donât think it refers to a physical mark.
The Bible frequently uses marks and seals as a way to indicate belonging. In Deuteronomy God commands Israel to be sealed with the Torah on their forehead and right hand. In Ephesians St. Paul says that we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. In the Revelation itself we see a group who are marked, sealed with God upon their forehead indicating that they are His.
The mark of the Beast isnât about a literal markâa tattoo, a chip, or brandâitâs about allegiance to the Beast.
The Revelation is making a distinction between those who belong to the Lamb, to Christ, the Church; and those who belong to the Beast, to the world.
I subscribe to the position that the Beast, most directly and explicitly, refers to Nero; who suffered a mortal wound, whose name has the numerical value of 666, etc. In the late 1st century after Neroâs death there were rampant rumors that he would come back to life, or that he didnât really die but went into hiding and would return to rule Rome and slaughter his enemies. Roman historians even mention several Nero pretenders who attempted to amass large followingsâultimately these failed.
When Domitian was in power, and John was imprisoned on Patmos where he received his visions, Christians were once again facing oppression at the hands of the Roman authoritiesâwhich hadnât been the case since Nero almost 30 years earlier. As though Nero were coming back from the dead, having suffered a mortal wound (he stabbed himself in the neck) but brought back to life (metaphorically) in the person of Domitian who was re-asserting the imperial cult, and Christians were once again suffering. Things would then increase under Trajan, Domitianâs successor, and persecution became normative in the next couple hundred years.
The point of the Revelation isnât to predict far off future events, but to remind Christians (especially those living in Johnâs time) of the victory of Christ over death and the powers of this world; and that we have no need to fear Caesar, Rome, or any beast, or any weapon the devil wieldsâour hope is in the Risen Jesus who vanquished hell and has destroyed the power of death. And no matter the present dangers and troubles, Christ already has won the victory, and He will come again, and in the end put an end to all injustice and God will make all things newâthe promises long ago made will come to pass. Jesus is the promise and hope of this truth. Donât falter to the powers of the world, but endure, trust in ChristâHeâs won.
I seem to be talking to many people about this growing belief. So are you saying you believe in the Preterism view that Revelation is a history book and now a prediction of the end? Have all the things in Revelations already happened?
Peter
I hold to some Partial Preterist ideas, but I wouldnât identify myself as a Partial Preterist completely. Partial Preterists usually believe that the Revelation was written before 70 AD and is largely concerned with the still-yet destruction of Jerusalem; and identify the city on seven hills as Jerusalem. I disagree; I hold to the traditional view that the Revelation was written in the mid-90âs AD during the reign of Domitian, and Babylon refers to Rome. The Revelation was written after the destruction of the Temple; and is concerned with events happening toward the end of the first century.
My views would be considered broadly âPreteristâ insofar as I think the Revelation is chiefly concerned with contemporary events of St. Johnâs time, though as the Revelation itself notes, the text deals with things already happened, things which were happening, and things which would shortly happen.
So while I believe the text should be read, chiefly, within the historical context of the time it was written, as St. John is addressing a specific audience (the seven churches of Asia), and it wouldnât make any sense to address these things to them if it wasnât relevant to them. Though the message remains timeless, because the things spoken about speak to the Church of every generation and age. In that regard, I also subscribe to what is sometimes called the Idealist reading of the Revelationâthe Revelation addresses big themes which are perpetually relevant. Though, as I understand it, Idealists tend to downplay or ignore the concrete historic events (hence why I say I do subscribe to some Partial Preterist ideas).
I am not certain that my reading of the Revelation cleanly fits into any of the four major camps: Preterism, Historicism, Futurism, Idealism.
I think the immediate context is past, events of the late first century involving the persecution and oppression of the Church under Roman imperial hegemony in which Christians were a persecuted minority being instructed and reminded of the victory of Christ over all the cosmic powers of darkness in this present world. And thus called to endure to the end.
I also think the text does address large persistent themes, the historical context ends up speaking to conditions and situtations and ideas which are always relevant as the Church is always called to be reminded of her first love, Christ, and to endure all hardships and tribulations in the face of hostile adversity. For Christians at many times and in many places have faced discrimination and persecution. And even when they havenât, there are other pressures which the Church must face: namely remaining faithful in the condition of comfortâas comfort breeds apathy and complacency; and we may grow entirely too comfortable with the present conditions where we imagine weâre the ones with the power and thus ought to hold control. We can see how these things have produced all sorts of evils for the Church when the Church has grown comfortable with power; and Christians have become the persecutors rather than the persecuted. We can even see this today in places where Christian majority nations become, seemingly, more interested in maintaining a Christian political and social identity rather than be faithful to the cross of Christian discipleship. The most clear and visible example of this danger in modern times is probably what happened with the Church in Germany during the Nazi era, where Christians went so far as toâfiguratively and literallyâreplace the Cross with a swastika.
And, still, there are things in the Revelation which are very clearly future. Christâs Parousia, the Resurrection of the dead, the Day of Judgment, and the Restoration/Renewal of all creationâthe Age to Come.
While I donât expressly hold to any Historicist interpretations of the Revelation (even though Historicism has been the prevalent position among Lutherans going back to the Reformation itself), I am not opposed to there being valid Historicist readings or interpretations either.
So has everything written in the Revelation already happened? Given that Christ has not returned, the dead have not been raised, Judgment day is still yet, and we arenât living in the new heavens and new earth, the obvious answer is no. Not everything has already happened.
Do I believe the Millennium is a future age where Jesus rules as a kind of emperor over the globe? No, I think the Millennium is symbolic. I would very freely say that Iâm an Amillennialist, the Millennium represents the the reign of Christ from His Ascension until His Parousia; as such Christ reigns as King of kings and Lord of lords right now; through His Church, not with the power of a sword, but the power of the Cross, of the Gospel. Christâs kingdom is not a kingdom of this world, it is the otherworldly kingdom that is upside-down, where the least is greatest, the last is first. The Church, therefore, reflects the kingdom not through strength, but weakness; not through power, but humility; not through the sword, but through suffering; and not through glory, but the Cross. For, St. Paul says, we are (right now) seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesusâso that those who are Christâs have in the first resurrection (i.e. our Baptism) been joined with Christ, and are present in Christ even as Christ reigns in the heavens at the right hand of the Father, and He must reign until every enemy is made subject to Himâthe last enemy being death.
âWhen I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are, and those that are to take place after this.â Revelation 1:17-19
To break this down, we need to look at the three distinctions.âWhat you have seenâ: Generally interpreted as the initial vision of the glorified Christ standing among the seven lampstands, as we read in chapter 1.
âWhat is nowâ: This refers to the current state of the Church at the time of writing, specifically the messages to the seven churches in Asia Minor as seen in chapters 2â3.
âWhat will take place laterâ: This covers the prophetic visions of the future, including the seals, trumpets, bowls, and the eventual New Jerusalem, the rest of Revelation.
So yes, I can agree with this.
This is why I argue with some of the more concrete Preterists. Where are all these things if they happened? There is no way ANYONE can say we are living in paradise with all the insanity and sin running rampant.
Well, this is interesting. I have not heard this before. Thank you for that.
So if it has been, and it has been, approximately 1,993 years since His ascension, we would be looking at nearly two millennia. However, if you are in the camp of 3 days, then we are coming close to the end of the second day, the whole âa day is like a thousand yearsâ thing. So on the third day He returns? That would be perhaps the start of the third day, or would He return when He left? the third hour, sixth hour, of whatever on the third day, to be exact?
Now you got me thinking.
Peter
Itâs incredibly important to make a distinction between whatâs called Partial Preterism, also known as Orthodox Preterism; and whatâs called Full Preterism, also known as Hyper-Preterism.
Often âPreterismâ is all conflated and treated like the latter.
I consider Full or Hyper Preterism to be not only heterodox, but explicitly heretical. Full Preterists believe that the Parousia refers to Jesus coming to judge Jerusalem through the Roman siege and destruction. Full Preterists deny the resurrection of the body, believing that the resurrection refers to a spiritual resurrection of going to be with Christ in gloryâwhat mainstream, historic, orthodox Christianity understands as the intermediate state between bodily death and bodily resurrection.
I not only disagree with Full Preterism, I think it is total heresy.
Partial Preterism, on the other hand, says most things are fulfilled already, what remains is Christâs future coming in glory and judgment, the resurrection of the dead, and the new heavens and the new earth.
The distinction, as you can imagine, is utterly essential; itâs the difference between orthodoxy and heresy.
I donât interpret St. Peterâs statement about a day being as a thousand years, and a thousand years being a day as some kind of cipher to interpret divine time-keeping. St. Peter is saying that time, which matters so much to us mortal humans, is irrelevant to God. Contextually the issue is that just because Jesus has not yet returned, does not mean He isnâtâGod is going to keep His promise. Christ will return. Why does time keep chugging along in the interim? Because God wants to save you, save me, save everyone. So we canât hold God to our standards of slow or quick, to what we think is a long time or a short time. A thousand years is a huge stretch of time for us, but for God, itâs no different than a dayâor an hour, or a second, or a nanosecond. God isnât subject to our tiny finite ideas of time.
So Christ could return in ten seconds after I post this, or Christ could return in ten thousand years after I post this. Itâs ultimately not my business, after all, âNo one knows the day or hourâ as the Lord Himself said. So speculating about such things is meaningless. The Lord comes on a day and an hour we donât know, He will come when He comesânot a moment sooner, not a moment later. Our job is to be faithful servants. Thatâs why the Lord gives us the parables He does in Matthew 25âof the wise and foolish virgins, of the talents, and of the Day of Judgment.
The Lord will come again. Itâs not our business to know when, or to guess. Our job is to be faithful servants. Our neighbor is hungry, feed him. Our neighbor is thirsty, give her drink. The immigrant needs to be welcomed. Those in prison need to be visited. The sick need our care. The Gospel is to be preached, we are to take up our cross and follow Jesus.
The day will come when this present age with all its wickedness will come to an end. But ours is not to know or wonder or speculateâbut to be faithful to Jesus who has conquered the world.
Amen!
Occupy until He comes. Amen! Remember this truth by Jesus.
âFor I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty, and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked, and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison, and you came to me.â
Then the righteous will answer him, saying, âLord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?â
And the King will answer them, âTruly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.â Matthew 25:35-40
It is not our job to guess when the End Times are going to come. We are to be foinf the will of our Father until He does.
Peter
I remember learning about this as a middleschooler and ever since chips started going in your pets, itâs all I think about.
Yeah, there are many that say these are tests. Then you have this.
âIn Sweden, a significant number of citizens have adopted implanted microchips as a cashless payment method. Over 4,000 Swedes have received these microchips, which allow them to pay for services and access buildings without the need for cash or traditional payment methods. This innovative technology is part of a broader trend towards a cashless society in Sweden, where many transactions are already digital.â Modern Diplomacy**+5**
Peter
And would not a crook with an RFID (or an appropriate type) sanner in his pocket be able to read your implant and steal your financial info, or worse, clone your chip? Why would/does anyone trust this? Technology is NOT secure.
Also, where does it say the mark will be Sub-Dermal? The word Mark denotes something seen, a blemish to the original if you will. The RFID chips we used at the Vet where I worked were the size of an uncooked grain of rice, hardly noticable under the skin. It sounds more like a cybernetic implant to me, such as what Elon Musk is working on producingâŚ
I doubt it will be something as counterfittable as a tattoo, or removable like Tefillin.
I have not been here for a few days. But I ask because I am against Walletmor, Dsruptive Subdermals, and dangerous things implants. Epicenter implants is one I think another poster mentioned. I do believe it is the very mark and am looking for people that would warn others. A few pastors have turned me down saying that the book of revelation is symbolic. But bear in mind that many people are against computer rfid nfc chips in people also because its totalitarian and evil every single time. I remember having to read house of the scorpion in middle school and watching the movie the wave with ron jones. It was made in 1981. I am actively warning people not to take the chip or have a mark on their head or hand. Many are churches that donât believe that. The series Elsbeth recently had an episode with biohackers. This is one group of people that are getting the chips upon their head or hand. It has your health and medical information, you buy and sell with it using tap technology, it has your passwords, and you even open doors with it. They want it in healthcare. It is not yet mainstream in the states but close to it. If anyone is interested please tell your groups churches or congregations not to do Walletmor or Dsruptive subdermals, even if they donât believe its the mark. You can address letters to different people where the sender and receiver are different so that whoever gets it opens it and reads it and you can go to gofundme or leetchi and donate to someone in a different country, warning them not to do this. These are two ideas to reach the masses. You can go on forums and post, such as this to find people that will help you. You can write notes on bookmarks or the first pages of books and have them in libraries or the new section. You can go to italki, preply, or superprof and send messages for free or buy a lesson and tell them not to place a mark on their head or hand. Walletmor and Dsruptive subdermals are two. Body modifiers, biohackers, and early adapters are some of the first people to try this and it is about to become mainstream, like the qr codes on commercials. It took three years before they were everywhere. Prior to that, it was only snapchat that really used it.
Yes, and probably because most people today, have been taught to be sheep. To not question, just accept. Which in of itself is pretty scary.
Peter
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Welcome to the conversation. @matthewk Thanks for the info, it is interesting. Have you been a part of that firsthand, or is it something you were interested in? By the way, pardon the pun, âfirsthand.â That was not intentional.
Peter