Why do you want to use Greek words in discussing this and other topics? Let’s use English, okay?
Ik ur an English teacher right..that’s good,I like English teachers and English, but if u read bible, we have Biblical Hebrew in OT and the one to which I refer, I have the lxx. Some portions like parts of Daniel and Ezra are written in Aramaic, and we have the NT written in Greek, is it. I hope u know that Greek and Hebrew words carry certain meanings and nuances that cannot be captured in translation, so we have to refer to the original records in their original language, grammar and syntaxes.
Also, certain aspects of Hebrew and Greek grammar cannot be replicated in English, and in those cases where I use greek\hebrew\latin word I try to explain in English but its lacks the depth.
@bruce_leiter thanks, I’ll use English in most cases but in cases where hebrew\latin\greek are to be used, I’m helpless I have to use it, I hope u understand why I’m emphasizing on Hebrew/greek/latin, I’m sorry.
Peace
Sam
Hi,
Why can’t it be both; a combination of free will and predestination?
God is all-knowing.
Therefore he knows who and who will not believe in Him.
Man hears the call of God, and his spirit is awakened within.
Man repents and believes.
Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, KJV
Now God knew the man would repent for all eternity passed.
Does that mean God forced the man?
No.
Knowing something is going to happen does not make you the cause of the action.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. KJV
Man controls the door.
Man has to open the door.
That’s the free will of man.
Man is not forced to open the door.
The Bible teaches both are true.
So both must be true.
So that is what I believe.
Where does predestination intersect with free will?
That is the deeper question.
Blessings
2 Likes
On October 23rd, 1948, Jesus said the following about predestination and free will. [Note: @Joe, He confirms what you were saying.]
All men are predestined to grace, because I died for all men without exception.
Those who remain faithful at least to the natural law of the Good are predestined to glory. At the end of time, yes, everyone who has lived as a just person will have their reward.
From eternity God has known those who were destined to glory, even before they were born, that is “predestined”. Be careful however to understand the justice of God with justice.
It is certain that there are predestined people. And God knows them before their time to live begins. But they are not so because God has given them every means of becoming glorious and blocked all dangers of the devil, the world and the flesh. That would clearly be unjust. God gives them what He has given everybody. They use God’s gifts with justice, and therefore win future and eternal glory through their own free will.
God knows that they will reach this eternal glory. However, they do not know it, nor does God tell them in any way. The special gifts themselves are not a sure sign of glory; they are a more severe means to test a person’s spirit in their will, virtue, and faithfulness to God and His Law. God knows. He is happy to know in advance that a particular creature will achieve glory just as He suffers knowing that another will freely achieve damnation.
However, He does not intervene in any way to force the free will of any creature in order for it to reach the place where God wants everyone to reach; Heaven. Of course a creature’s response to divine help increases its will power. God opens up the more a man loves Him in truth; the love of actions, not that of words.
And again, the more man lives a just life, the more God communicates with him and shows Himself to him. It’s a foretaste of that knowing God that makes the saints in Heaven so happy. From this foretaste comes an increased capacity to want to be more perfect. However, man is always free to follow his own will and if after reaching perfection decides to renounce the good done and sell himself to Evil, God leaves him free to do so. There would be no merit if one is forced to do something.
To conclude: God knows from eternity who are the future eternal inhabitants of Heaven, but man with his free will must want to reach Heaven using the supernatural help that the Eternal Father gives every creature. It will be like this until one’s last breath, whatever the gifts received or the level of perfection reached.
Remember nobody has ever arrived until their journey is finished. That is, no one can be sure to have merited glory until their time is over and immortality begins. (The Little Notebooks)
On June 14th, 1953, Jesus said the following about free will:
I don’t disregard the free will I have given mankind. I limit Myself to indicate through clear words and spiritual advice what is best done to merit My blessing on Earth and eternal glory in Heaven, or My punishment here and beyond. That’s what My Father did with the angels and with Adam and Eve, because that’s the way to confirm in grace, or not. I do it with all men of every class and all walks of life; from kings to the poor, from Priests to lay people and from scholars to the ignorant.
I subject everyone to the test in order to confirm them in grace or let them fall into disgrace. (The Little Notebooks)
[Note: these aren’t Jesus’s only dictations about the these subjects.]
1 Like
Wow amazing answer sister
Peace
Sam
1 Like
Soul, let’s be crystal clear from the jump: any claim that “Jesus said” something in 1948 or 1953 that isn’t in Scripture isn’t revelation. It’s a red flag with a halo costume. The canon is closed. Hebrews 1:1-2 says God “has spoken to us by His Son”—past tense, complete, final. So if someone rolls up quoting a post-ascension diary of Jesus like it’s divine commentary, we better be reaching for discernment, not devotion.
Now, let’s weigh the theology, not just the theatrics. You say all are predestined to grace because Christ died for all. Fair. The atonement is sufficient for all, but effective only for those who believe. That’s not new—that’s Bible. But here’s the snag: this take starts to wobble under the weight of works. “They win future and eternal glory through their own free will”? That’s not Paul talking. That’s Rome’s ladder climbing back into the gospel kitchen.
Ephesians 2:8-9 slices through the fluff. “For by grace you have been saved through faith—and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Glory isn’t earned by well-managed free will. It’s granted by sovereign mercy. Yes, we respond. Yes, we believe. But even that faith is fueled by grace.
And this idea that God gives “everybody the same” and just watches who does best with it? That turns salvation into a spiritual Hunger Games. Romans 9:16 crushes that. “It does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who has mercy.” That’s not Calvin’s idea. That’s inspired Word.
You want free will? You’ve got it. You want a God who opens blind eyes, unstops deaf ears, and raises dead hearts? That’s what makes grace amazing. It’s not a motivational pep talk. It’s resurrection.
The notion that God “doesn’t intervene in any way” is not just wrong—it’s a gospel-denying insult to the very work of the Holy Spirit. John 6:44 says no one comes unless the Father draws him. Philippians 1:29 says faith itself is granted. If God left us all to our uncoerced will, not one of us would choose Him. Romans 3:11—no one seeks God. Not. One.
So while this mystical dictation dances with some decent phrases, it preaches a graceless gospel dressed up in pious vocabulary. It reduces predestination to prediction, turns grace into guidance, and turns salvation into self-management with divine advice.
But God isn’t our life coach. He’s our Savior. He doesn’t just suggest the way—He is the way, and He grabs sinners off the road to hell and makes them walk it.
So don’t hand me a notebook of alleged post-biblical speeches. Hand me the Book. And let’s build theology that bleeds Scripture, not sentiment.
—Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.
1 Like
Correct. But God is a living Being, and living beings like Him and us have the freedom to act, use reason and intelligence, speak, and so on.
I didn’t say that, but rather Jesus did. And, no one’s claiming it’s new. And, since Jesus said it when He was on earth, why would He say anything different to Maria Valtorta?
The excerpt you’re referring to in full reads: “God gives them what He has given everybody. They use God’s gifts with justice, and therefore win future and eternal glory through their own free will”. Whether someone uses God’s gifts with justice or not, and thus wins eternal future and eternal glory or not, it’s through their own free will. God doesn’t force people to spend eternity in Heaven or Hell. Did Paul say otherwise?
You’re misunderstanding the dictation and thus misusing Eph. 2:8-9. If the people in Heaven and Hell are there because God forces them to be, then what’s the point of even having faith? In fact, why doesn’t God just force everyone to be in Heaven? The answer is in Jesus’s dictation I posted.
Go here to read the Holy Spirit’s lesson on Rom. chapter 9.
You just lied about what Jesus said. Jesus didn’t say “God doesn’t intervene in any way”, but rather “However, He does not intervene in any way to force the free will of any creature in order for it to reach the place where God wants everyone to reach; Heaven.”
Go here to read the Holy Spirit’s lesson on Rom. chapter 3.
(I) Jesus said, "Those who remain faithful at least to the natural law of the Good are predestined to glory. At the end of time, yes, everyone who has lived as a just person will have their reward.
From eternity God has known those who were destined to glory, even before they were born, that is “predestined”.
(II) Prediction doesn’t apply to God because He’s omniscient.
How so? And what does that even mean?
If Jesus’s sacrifice meant all of mankind was going to Heaven, or He was going to force everyone to be in Heaven, then He wouldn’t have taught about eternal damnation, among other things. So, clearly your understanding of salvation is skewed.
Thank you sister, u are teaching me a different perspective which I haven’t thought about, thank u again.
In line of this:
here is something interesting for my brothers and sisters:
To everyone who desires to deepen their understanding of the Five Sorrowful Mysteries and the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ :
I wholeheartedly recommend reading The Complete Visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich . These mystical revelations, recorded by Clemens Brentano and Dr. Wesener, offer an unparalleled and soul-stirring insight into Christ’s suffering.
When I read them, my heart was changed. I discovered so much more about the depth of Jesus’ love, sacrifice, and the mystery of redemption.
You can access the full visions here: http://annecatherineemmerich.com/
I strongly encourage everyone to read it. It truly transformed me.
I totally disagree, it is not the writings of Maria Valtorta that convict, transform, or rebirth me.
It is Christ Jesus who was crucified (1 Cor. 2:2),
The Father who draws (John 6:44),
The Holy Spirit who regenerates (Titus 3:5),
and the Scriptures that pierce and cut (Heb. 4:12),
bearing witness to the Truth (John 5:39).
My heart is not stirred by private mystics,
but by the Word of God, breathed by the Spirit (2 Tim. 3:16),
and confirmed by an inner conviction, the Spirit bearing witness with my spirit (Rom. 8:16).
The new birth comes from above (John 3:3), not from books, visions, or mystic fiction.
What is born of the flesh is flesh,
what is born of the Spirit is Spirit (John 3:6).
I don’t need imagination, I need crucifixion.
I don’t need mysticism, I need resurrection power (Phil. 3:10).
Christ alone saves. His Word alone transforms.
Everything else must kneel before the Cross.
J.
yes i agree @johann, i just use it for spiritual edification
And I use the Scriptures, God-breathed, sharp, and soul-piercing (2 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 4:12), for spiritual edification, @Samuel_23.
Not the Apocrypha. Not mysticism.
Not man’s visions, dreams, or hidden books.
The Word is my sword (Eph. 6:17),
my light in the dark (Ps. 119:105),
my food when I hunger (Matt. 4:4),
my fire shut up in my bones (Jer. 20:9).
I don’t chase shadows,
I stand on what is written (Matt. 4:4).
Christ sanctifies His Church by the washing of water with the Word (Eph. 5:26),
not with fables, not with mystics, not with silence in dim-lit corners.
If it doesn’t come from the Scriptures,
it doesn’t build me up, it weighs me down.
J.
1 Like
@Johann brother, u have an interesting perspective about this, but i want to tell you something
Orthodox cosmology as St.Irenaeus’ Adversus Haereses illumines, envisions the ktisis (creation) as an intelligible nature, a divine-human crucible teleologically ordained for divinization. Unlike, the temporal-spatial causality of the world (Rev 21:1), the creation is a mystery where human autexousion interpenetrates divine operations. Your Eph 2:8-9 which u sent in chat, “by grace you have been saved through faith” with its perfect passive verb, exalts prevenient grace as salvation’s origin. Yet, monergism falters, risking necessitating determinism that renders autexousion a shadow. Orthodoxy’s theandric physis rooted in Chalcedonian homoousios posits autexousion as a participation in the divine dynamic operation, an imitation of Christ’s hypostasis, whose human will freely synergizes with the divine. Joshua 24:15 unveils deliberative choice as a personal power. Synergia shatters monergistic irresistible grace and pelagian self-sufficiency as grace ontologically transfigures autexousion toward the end-time aim of theosis.
Monergistic schema
Your monergistic schema- God alone “initiates, calls, convicts, draws, regenerates, justifies and saves” implies an absolute decree confining proorismos to a limited elect. St. Maximus the Confessor’s Ambigua reconfigures proorismos (Romans 8:29-,30) as a spiritual purposeful plan an eternal stretching of the Trinity’s love for humanity within the eternal divine plane. Eph 1:4-5 is not a necessitating judgement byt a universal call to communion through operation. Foreknowledge, per St.John Damascene’s De Fide Orthodoxa is a supra-cosmic understanding embracing choice without coercion. The aporia of justice, whether proorismos imputes a cause for reprobation evapores in Orthodoxy’s salvific fullness: God’s will seeks all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) with reprobation airisng from human rejection, not divine repudiation. Proorismos is a divinizing boundary, safeguarding autexousion.
Synergeia
Your dichotomy, monergism for salvation and synergism for sanctification splinters the salvific community, Orthodox synergeia is an unknowable mutual indwelling of divine grace and human will, mirroring the non-personal union of Christ’s nature. As St.Gregory of Nyssa’s Life of Moses unveils synergeia as an infinite ascent towards theosis, where prevenient grace transfigures autexousion across salvation and sanctification. The Mother of God’s “fiat” (Luke 1:38) was a divine-human assent, not a meritorious work. Orthodoxy synergeia envelops salvation’s beginning, rejecting monergism’s passive autexousion. Synergeia destroys Molinistic middle knowledge, as i said before, it embraces the spiritual pwoer, the Spirit’s operations divinize proclamation, worship and askēsis. The unknowable harmony fuses sovereignty and freedom in a divinizing definition.
Next to
Ecc 3:11, plunges us into the darkness of knowledge, the unknowable abuss of Orthodox theology. St. Gregory Palamas’ Traids sunder God’s essence beyong understanding, from His operations, enabling participation in theosis (2 Peter 1:4). The proorismos-autexousion dialectic is a ineffable mystery akin to the Trinitarian mutual indwelling or eucharisitic transformation. Psalms 103:8-14, unveils God’s love for humanity, transfiguring frailty into His plan. Your cross-centered soteriology gestures toward this ascent but monergism’s necessitation and synergisitc sanctification pale before orthodoxy’s synergeia which unifies salvation and theosis in a divinizing communion. The Skotos Gnōseōs emancipates:
choice bears end time weight, participating in the divine purpose without grasping the eternal word.
At last:
Orthodox synergeia unveils a divinizing culmination, proorismos is the eternal purpose of the Triad, radiating love for humanity to summon all into theosis. Autexousion transfigured by prevenient grace, enables participation in the supra-cosmic divine plan. The darkness of knowledge enshrines the mystery of God’s essence, yet synergeia offers a divine-human action:
in proclamation, worship and ascentic practice, will synergizes with grace transcending dime to doxologia unto the ages. Sovereignty and freedom co-inhere the unknowable mutual indwelling of the Triad.
I hear you, but I’m not buying what you’re selling. Let’s tear this down point by point, with verbs that strike, Scriptures that speak, and clarity that cuts. I don’t need a maze of mystical jargon, I need the gospel.
- Salvation is not a “divine-human crucible”, it’s a rescue mission.
You say salvation is a synergistic theosis, a divine-human ascent. But Ephesians 2:8–9 doesn’t whisper partnership, it declares:
“By grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one may boast.”
The verb σεσῳσμένοι ἐστε (sesōsmenoi este) is perfect passive, you have been saved by an action done to you, not by you.
You didn’t climb. God raised (συνήγειρεν | synegeiren) you up (Eph. 2:6).
You didn’t cooperate. God made alive (συνεζωοποίησεν | synezōopoiēsen) while you were dead (Eph. 2:5).
Grace acts. Faith receives. Works stay silent.
- Joshua 24:15 doesn’t overturn grace, it exposes idolatry.
You appeal to “Choose this day whom you will serve” (Josh. 24:15). But this isn’t about new birth, it’s about covenant loyalty.
Israel was already redeemed from Egypt, already brought through the sea, already fed from heaven.
Their choice wasn’t what saved them, it was their response to being already chosen.
- Romans 8:29–30 is a golden chain, not a flexible rope.
God foreknew (προέγνω), predestined (προώρισεν), called, justified, and glorified, all in aorist active verbs.
These are God’s verbs, not ours.
You can’t rewrite proorismos into a cosmic hug of possibility, Paul roots it in divine intention, not human synergy.
And yes, 1 Timothy 2:4 says God wants all to be saved-but not all are. Why? Because many resist, and grace isn’t weak, it’s specific.
- The cross doesn’t invite cooperation, it kills the old man.
Romans 6:6—“Our old self was crucified with Him.”
Galatians 2:20, “I have been crucified with Christ.”
That’s not synergy. That’s death.
Christ didn’t come to partner with Adam, He came to put Adam to death and raise the dead (John 5:21).
- Your “divinizing ascent” is not the gospel, it’s the Tower of Babel in Greek robes.
You speak of theosis, mystical ascent, dark knowledge, unknowable participation.
But 2 Corinthians 3:18 says we are being transformed (μεταμορφούμεθα) by the Spirit, not by ascentic synergy, but by beholding Christ.
We don’t climb, we are conformed (συμμορφίζεσθαι) to Christ’s image (Rom. 8:29) by the Spirit’s power, not by interpenetrated autexousion.
- Mary’s fiat (Luke 1:38) wasn’t synergy, it was surrender.
She didn’t activate grace. She received it.
She said, “Let it be to me according to your word,” not “Let me contribute to your work.”
It was God who overshadowed her, not she who cooperated to produce Christ.
- Grace saves. Not works. Not synergy. Not mystical liturgy.
Titus 3:5, “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to His own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.”
That’s monergism in motion.
God saves, God regenerates, God justifies, and He does it apart from our merit or synergy.
Final Word:
The gospel is not “God acts and I respond and together we achieve theosis.”
The gospel is:
“While I was dead, God acted. While I was enslaved, Christ died. While I was without strength, the Spirit gave life.”
Salvation is not synergy, it is sovereign mercy (Rom. 9:16).
The only thing I brought to my salvation was the sin that made it necessary.
Everything else?
By grace. Through faith. Not of self. Not of works. So that no one may boast.
Shalom.
J.
1 Like
@Bruce_Leiter
Your calvinistic depiction of humanity as “dead in trespasses and sins” raised solely by God’s grace, rightly exalts initiating grace, as salvation’s origin. Yet, your denial of “real free will” risks reducing self-determination to a specter aligning with a monergistic absolute decree. Beyond the temporal-spatial order of the world, the creation is a luminous mystery, where self-determination interweaves with divine operations. Eph- “by grace you have been saved through faith” is not a monergistic erasure of deliberative choice, by a divinizing condescension enabling participation in the divine pure potency. The Chalcedonian homoousios unveils self-determination as a emulation of Christ’s hypostasis, which human volition harmonizes with the divine (John 6:38). Gem 50:20, Joseph’s insight that God meant evil for good, reflects divine providence working through human faculty of choice, not negating it. Cooperating obliterates monergistic inexorable grace and Pelagian self-rule as grace ontically transfigures self-determination toward the end-time aim of theosis.
Let’s go to the next point
Your “both-and” framework, that divine predestination and human responsibility gestures towards a mystery but falters by denying self-determination and implying an absolute decree that limits predestination to a select elect. This risk imputing reprobation to divine cause, undermining justice. As St. Maximus the Confessor’s Ambigua reconceives predestination (Eph 1:4-5) as a spiritual stretching, a divinizing rationale of the Trinity’s love for humanity within the eternal divine plan. Foreknowledge as per St.John Damascene’s De Fide Orthodox is a supra-noetic knowledge embracine faculty of choice without coercion. Your Eph 2:10 aligns with Orthodox view of predestination as a universal summons to communion through operations, not a necessitating judgement. The aporia where predestination causes reprobation dissolves in Orthodoxy’s slavific plenitude. God’s volition seeks all to be saved, 1 Tim 2:4, with reprobation arising from human defection not divine repudiation. Predestination is a divinising delineation safeguarding self-determination as a God-bearing liberty.
Free-will
Your rejection of “free-will” and assertion that God alone enables post-salvation works (Eph 2:10) is wrong.
Orthodox cooperation is a unknowable concord of divine grace and human volition, mirroring the unconfused union of Christ’s natures. St.Gregory of Nyssa’s Life of Moses unveils synergia as an infinite revelatory ascent toward theosis where initiating grace transfigures self-determination across salvation’s origin and sanctification’s completion. The Mother of God’s “fiat” was a divine-human cooperation, a faculty of choice, ignited by grace, not a passive acceptance. Your view of Eph 2:5-6 aligns with self-emptying and resurrection, but Orthodoxy and I also say that self-determination freely embraces grace in both (Rom 6:4). Your “good works prepared beforehand” (Eph 2:10) reflect synergia, not monergism as grace enables will to enact God’s plan. This Apophatic harmony fuses sovereignty and liberty in a divinising order.
Why contradict yourself, sir
Your call to “humble our reason beofre God’s mysteries” resonantes with Orthodoxy’s unknowable horizon yet your denial of self-determination misreads the mystery. Ecc 3:11 plunges us into the beyond-bearing darkness. St.Gregory Palamas’ Triads sunder God’s essence beyond cognition, from His operations, koinōsis in theosis (2 Peter 1:4). The predestination-self determination dialectic is an ineffable mustery akin to the Trinitarian concord or eucharistic transformation.
You “both-and” gestures toward this ascent but monergism’s negation of self-determination collapses before cooperation, which unifies salvation and divinization in a divinising communion. The hyperousios skotos emanicpates faculty of choice- bears end time weight, 2 Cor 5:10, participating in the divine purpose without grasping the eternal word.
I would like to say at last that:
Orthodox’s cooperation unveils a divinizing culmination: predestination is the eternal purpose of the Trinity, radiating love for humanity to summon all into divinization. Self-determination, transfigured by initiating grace, enables participation in the supra-cosmic divine plane. The beyond-being darkness enshrines the mystery of God’s essence, yet cooperation offers a divine-human action: in proclamation, liturgical act, and ascetic practice, volition sunergizes with grace, transcending time to blaze eternal praise unto the ages. Sovereignty and liberty co-inhere in the unknowable concord of the Trinity, radiating a divinising light where divinization is the purpose of all.
Most Calvinists and I reject all forms of determinism. We adhere to the mystery of God’s complete plans for his whole creation and human responsibility for every part of their lives.
As far as reprobation is concerned, we believe that God has elected believers to be saved, while he, in his justice, passes by unbelievers and lets them have their own way that they choose in this life, living an eternity without God. There must be a good reason that God does not save everyone, but he has not revealed that reason to us, another mystery.
By the way, you’ve been conversing with a former English teacher and pastor, who is used to plain talk in my use of English, not technical, theological language in order to communicate.
@Bruce_Leiter
Creation
You describe humanities as “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1-3) raised to life by God’s grace alone (Eph 2:5-8) with no “real free will” until God enables good works (Eph 2:10). I agree that God’s grace is the source of salvation, Eph 2:8 says “By grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God”. But we see human freedom or self-determination as a God-given gift from the start, not erased by sin’s deadness. St.Irenaeus teaches (ik u dont accept Church Fathers, im putting for an interpretation) that creation is a loving act, designed for humans to grow toward theosis, who disagrees with that. Gen 50:20, where Joseph says God turned his brothers’ evil into good, shows God’s plan working through human choice, not overriding them. Joshua 24:15, “Choose this day whom you will serve”, reveals that humans can choose, even in fallen state, because God’s grace restores our ability to respond. Orthodoxy rejects both determinism and self-reliance, i agree @Bruce_leiter, u align more to Orthodox view, even in Filioque concept too. God’s grace initiates, but humans freely respond, partnering with God in salvation and good works as Eph 2:10 suggest we’re “created for good works” God prepared.
Predestination is God’s universal love
Your view of predestination, God electing believers for salvation while justly passing by unbelievers suggest a mystery where God’s reason for not saving all remains hidden..Praise be to God, Orthodox agrees with you, God’s ways are mysterious as Ecc 3:11, but we see predestination as universal call rooted in God’s love for humanity. Eph 1:4-5 says God chose us “before the foundation of the world” to be holy and 1 Tim 2:4 declares God “desires all people to be saved”. St.Maximus the Confessor describes predestination as God’s plan to draw everyone to theosis through Christ’s work, Eph 1:10, “to unite all things in Him”. Reprobation isn’t God actively passing by but humans rejecting His grace, as John 3:18 notes, “Whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he ahs not believed” God’s justice respects human self-determination, allowing free-rejection, but His lover nevers ceases to call all. The mystery isnt why God doesnt save all, thats wrong to say, the mystery is how His love persists despite human refusal.
Mystery
You urge humility before God’s mysteries, citing Gen 50:20, i agree, Orthodoxy embraces this, teaching that God’s essence is beyond our understanding as per St.Gregory Palamas. We know God through His actions, like grace and love which invite us to participate in His life, as 2 Peter 1:4, “partakers of the divine nature”. The mystery isnt a selective election, i disagree with that, but rather the mustery is the depth of God’s love for humanity, which respects our freedom while offering salvation to all, Am i right @Johann and @Bruce_Leiter. Psalms 103:8-14 reminds us God knows our weakness and loves us till, shaping our choices into His plan, as Joseph’s instance shows.
Cooperation
You frame human responsibility as enabled post-salvation, rejecting “free-will” before grace. Orthodoxy sees cooperation as God’s grace and human freedom working together from the start. Philippains 2:12-13 says “Work out your salvation…for it is God who works in you” This isnt God acting alone but empowering our response. The Virgin Mary’s “Let it be to me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) shows her free agreement with God’s plan, never just a passive acceptance. St. Gregory of Nyssa compares salvation to climbing a mountain. God’s grace provides strength, but we choose to take each step. This partnership spans salvation and sanctification, unifying them as a single journey toward theosis. Your “both-and” of divine plan and human responsibility aligns more closely here, but Orthodoxy insists human freedom is real, not nullified by sin, because grace restores our ability to choose God.
@TheologyNerd
Your rightly say that humanity’s dire state outside Christ, Eph 2:1-3, Orthodoxy agrees: sin wounds humanity, enslaving us to passions and death. But we diverge on self-determination. You question its freedom, arguing its conditional, not absolute, human cant become birds or kings of Norway no could enslaved people free themselves without external help. Orthodoxy affirms this, that autexousion is not absolute by a God-given power, rooted in our creation as God’s image as in Gen 1:26-27. St.Irenaeus teaches that humanity, though fallen retains deliberative choice, wounded but not erased. Your coffee-making example, is a good one, because you chose freely, not fated by cosmic forces. Likewise Joshua 24:15, shows autexousion persists even in sin, because God’s grace continually calls us. Unlike slavery’s eternal chains, sin’s bondage is internal yet God’s love for humanity offers initiating grace to restore our freedom to respond.
I see your concern:
Ik u are worried about ascribing salvation to “free-will” implies human merit, like crediting a child for first steps, i like this problem.
Did I do that? Or did God?
Orthodoxy’s synergia answers: both, but not equally.
Eph 2:8-9 “By grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” rules out merit. Grace is God’s gift, not earned but faith involves choice. The Mother of God’s “fiat” in Luke 1:38 was not merit but a free assent enabled by grace. St.Gregory of Nyssa likens salvation to a journey, for God’s grace is the wind, but we hoist the sail. Your child analogy fits here, God precedes and empowers but human response is real, not meritorious. Synergia avoids Pelagian self-rule by grounding self-determination in grace, enabling all glory is God’s.
Salvation’s Locus
You ask why Scripture places “saving choice” with God, not humans citing St.Paul’s rejection of human effort. I agree, and Orthodoxy agrees that salvation’s origin is God’s love for humanity. John 6:44 “No one can come to Me, unless the Father draws him”, shows what we call as initiating grace precedes all. Yet, synergia holds that humans freely respond to his drawing. Romans 10:9 “If you confess with your mouth…and believe in your heart…you will be saved” implies choice in confessing and believing, enabled by grace. The Spirit sparks faith as in 1 Cor 12:3 but humans say “yes” as the theotokos did. This isnt merit, our response adds nothing to Christ’s finish work, but a divine-human action, where volition aligns with grace. Your fear of human credit is ans, Orthodoxy denies any cause in us, grace alone saves, but self-determination makes our response personal, not mechanical.
Proorismos and Reprobation
I talked about this with Bruce_Leiter also. Your view aligns with limited predestination, where God chooses some for salvation, and “passes by” others leaving reprobation a mystery. Orthodoxy sees proorismos as God’s eternal purpose to call all to theosis through Christ’s recapitulation, Eph 1:10. Eph 1:4-5, “chosen before the foundation of the world”, is a universal call, per 1 Timothy 2:4, “God desires all people to be saved”. St. Maximus the Confessor teaches that proorismos is God’s love for humanity inviting all, not a selective decree. Damnation results from human rejection, not divine neglect as John 3:18 states “Whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed”. The mystery isnt why God doesnt save all, but how His grace persists despite human refusal, respecting self-determination.
Orthodox cooperation unveils a divinizing purpose, where predestination is the eternal purpose of the Trinity, radiating love for humanity to call all to divinization. Self-determination transfigured by initiating grace, enables participation in the supra-cosmic divine plan. The beyond-being darkness per St.Gregory Palamas, guards God’s essence as unknowable, yet his operations invite us to theosis as in 2 Peter 1:4. In proclamation, worship and spiritual discipline, volition synergizes with grace, transcending time to offer eternal praise unto the ages. Sovereignty and liberty co-inhere in the Trinity, radiating a divinising light where theosis is the purpose of all.
Peace
Sam
I saw your second post as well
You describe humanity as enslaved by sin and death lacking freedom apart from Christ with the “Old Man” despising God and the “New Man” freed to love Him. Orthodoxy agrees that sin binds us, rendering us dead in trespasses as in Eph 2:1. Yet, St.Irenaeus teaches that self-determination, God’s gift in creation (Gen 1:26-27) is wounded but not obliterated by sin. Joshua 24:15 reveals that even in a fallen state, deliberative choice persists, enabled by initiating grace. Your slavery analogy is good but orthodoxy sees grace as a constant call, like a liberator offering freedom before the chains are fully broken. John 1:12 shows autexousion responding to grace, not as merit but as a God-given capacity. Your “New Obedience” aligns with this, because in Christ we are freed to cooperate but Orthodoxy extends cooperation to initial act of faith, not just sanctification.
Your Lutheran view posits justification as monergistic with Christ’s righteousness imputed outside us, citing Eph 2:8-9. Orthodoxy affirms grace as the sole cause of salvation, seeing justification as the divine-human action where grace and faith converge. The Mother of God’s fiat in Luke 1:38 exemplifies this, her free assent to grace wasnt merit but a response enabled by God, where Romans 10:9 “If you confess…and believe…you will be saved” shows choice in faith, not as a work but as a cooperation. St.John Chrysostom teaches that faith is a gift we actively receive, not a passive state. Your monergistic justification risks sidelining self-determination, while Orthodoxy sees grace empowering volition from the outset, uniting justification with sanctification in a single divinising purpose.
You limit synergism to sanctification, citing Philippians 2:12-14, and describe theosis as a cooperative participation in God’s nature. Good, Orthodoxy embraces this, but rejects sharp dichotomy between justification and sanctification. St.Greogry of Nyssa likens salvation to an ascent, grace is the wind, self-determination is the sail, from the first step of faith to the fullness of theosis. Your “New Obedience” mirrors this, but limiting synergeia to post-Justification fragments the salvific continuity. The Chalcedonian homoousios reveals Christ’s human and divine wills in perfect concord, a model for our volition aligning with God’s through grace. Philippians 2:5, calls us to this divine-human unity, not only sanctification but in receiving the grace initially. The Spirit empowers faith ( 1 Cor 12:3), but we say “yes” as Romans 6:4 shows through resurrection, we walk in “newness of life” via cooperation.
I like that u embrace theosis citing St.Irenaeus and St.Augustine aligns with Orthodoxy’s vision of participation in God’s operations. Your rightly stress that theosis preserves the Creator-creature distinctions, not transforming the human essence into divine..thats amazing. St.Gregory Palamas’ Triads clarify this:
God’s essence remains unknowable, but His operations invite participation.
However, I need to bring this up that, your restriction of synergism to sanctification and theosis overlooks Orthodoxy’s view that synergeia beings with faith, and yes that makes more sense and is aligned with Scriptures. The Church is the light-bearing sphere where proclamation, liturgical act and spiritual discipline embody this partnership. Eph 2:10 “created in Christ Jesus for good works” shows synergeia spanning faith’s inception to theosis’s fulfilment, not confined to post-justification works.
Law and Gospel
You warn against conflating justification and sanctification. Yes, Orthodoxy agrees that Law reveals sin, while Gospel brings grace as in Romans 3:20; Eph 2:8. Yet cooperation doesnt confuse them.
I will explain:
Grace initiates salvation, and autexousion reponds without meriting it. Galatians 2:20, “I live by faith in the Son of God” shows faith as a divine-human action, not a work of the Law. Good works, per Romans 12:1 “offer your bodies as a living sacrifice” are liturgical service, not merit, proclaiming God’s glory. Your “living sacrifice” aligns here, but orthodoxy sees this synergeia starting with faith, not after a monergistic justification. The Mother of God’s fiat wasnt Law but Gospel response enabled by grace.
Reading your posts, @Samuel_23, is both stimulating and exhausting. Your use of theological jargon is difficult for me, since I have been an English teacher and a preacher and now a published author. I’m used to using the best English to communicate with a variety of audiences, not seminary professors. Bear with me. I agree that we agree on most theological points. Praise the Lord that he brings people together from very different backgrounds because we are one body in Jesus!
1 Like
Soul, let’s untangle this one vine at a time, because your defense of “Jesus’s dictations” is sincerely earnest—but deeply off course. You’re quoting mystical post-biblical writings as if they have the same authority as the Gospels, then building a theology on top of them like it’s Mount Sinai. But here’s the problem: Christ doesn’t contradict Christ. And if your “Jesus” says things that bend, blur, or blunt the Word He already gave, we don’t call that revelation—we call it revision.
Now to the core.
You object to me saying, “They win future and eternal glory through their own free will” is not Paul talking. You say, “Well, that’s not exactly what was said.” But your version still says the same thing: that eternal glory is reached through justice, through the right use of free will, and that God simply “knows” the outcome. Friend, that’s not predestination. That’s performance-based salvation with omniscient observation.
Romans 9 destroys that framework. “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy.” God doesn’t just see the finish line—He determines who reaches it. And no, that doesn’t make Him unjust. Paul anticipated that very objection in Romans 9:14: “Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means.”
You said I “lied” about what your Jesus dictated. But let’s hold that to the light. The quote you gave said God “does not intervene in any way to force the free will of any creature in order for it to reach the place where God wants everyone to reach: Heaven.” That’s spiritual sleight of hand. If God doesn’t intervene, then salvation is up to man. If salvation is up to man, grace becomes guidance. And that’s the gospel of self-reliance with divine coaching. Which is no gospel at all.
You ask, “How does it turn grace into guidance?” Simple. If grace merely makes salvation possible—but doesn’t secure it—then it’s not saving grace. It’s spiritual advice. But Paul doesn’t preach advice. He preaches a gift. Ephesians 2:8 says “By grace you have been saved.” Not offered, not invited—saved. Past tense. Completed by God. Not managed by man.
You said my view implies Jesus’s sacrifice forces everyone into Heaven. Absolutely not. It means those whom the Father gives to the Son will come to Him (John 6:37), and none will be lost (John 6:39). It means the cross didn’t merely make salvation a possibility—it accomplished redemption for the elect.
You’re trying to guard human freedom. I get it. But in doing so, you’re gutting divine sovereignty. Grace isn’t a push. It’s resurrection. And resurrection doesn’t happen because the corpse cooperates. It happens because the Spirit moves.
So no—I don’t recognize “The Little Notebooks” as binding doctrine. I recognize the canon as closed and Christ as already having spoken. And when He said, “It is finished,” He didn’t mean, “I’ve started a system, now see who manages it best.”
You want justice? Then you need grace. You want freedom? Then you better be born again. And if you want to know what God says, go to where He’s already spoken—because the real Jesus doesn’t need to add footnotes 1,900 years later.
—Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.