Predestination vs. Free Will- Are we chosen by God, or do we choose God?

@Samuel_23, before addressing anything else I would like to address this:

Your view aligns with limited predestination, where God chooses some for salvation, and “passes by” others leaving reprobation a mystery.

This would be incorrect. I don’t subscribe to this view; as you note here:

Damnation results from human rejection, not divine neglect

That is true. God has not passed by, nor neglected anyone. This view that God has chosen some, while passing by or “neglecting” others is associated with the Reformed Tradition, specifically the TULIP, or five points of orthodox Calvinism as defined at the Synod of Dordtrecht.

Because Reformed Protestantism (in both the Calvinist, as well as the Arminian off-shoot expressions) is the predominant form of Protestantism in much of the globe–in particular the English-speaking world, there is often a tendency both among Protestants as well as among non-Protestants to understand the subject of election and predestination within a Calvinist-Arminian dichotomy.

However the Lutheran Tradition is an emphatically distinct theological tradition. There are some similarities between the Lutheran and Reformed Traditions, some similarities are because there are things we do, in fact, agree on; other similarities however are less similar than they first appear; and then in some cases there is only a superficial similarity. The matter of Predestination is an example of the latter. Both Lutherans and Reformed speak enthusiastically about Predestination, but we do not mean the same thing.

In the Reformed Tradition predestination is about God’s Sovereign decree, God’s decree that certain persons would be saved, predestined in Christ for salvation. This is decree, based solely on God’s Sovereign choice is why it is called Unconditional Election in TULIP. And it is rooted in this idea that the rest of TULIP continues: Limited Atonement (Christ died only for the elect), Irresistable Grace (those who are elected to salvation will believe, for God has sovereignly chose and predestined them, and so this grace cannot be resisted), and finally Perseverance of the Saints (those predestined, the elect, cannot fall away).

Lutheranism does not agree with any of that. The Lutheran Tradition might give a suspicious nod to Unconditional Election, essentially we’d put a big giant asterisk by it, and have to go on to clarify and explain where we depart from the Reformed understanding. We can agree with our Reformed friends that Election is not dependent upon anything we do, so it is not as though predestination means that God foresaw what we would say/do and then chose us based on His foreknowledge. God doesn’t know we will say yes, and then choose us beforehand based on that knowledge; rather God’s choosing us is an efficient cause of our salvation–we believe because God chose us. However, here is the huge asterisk: We do not believe that God, in His Eternity, decreed who would believe (thereby choosing them), with the implication that therefore there are those not chosen, and who would not believe (what you have called “divine neglect” in your post). That is to say, God did not go around saying, “You, you, not you, you”. Thus Predestination is not based on God’s Sovereign Decree. That is not what makes Election unconditional; what makes Election unconditional is that God, in His love, chose us in Christ. God’s love is not conditional, but unconditional–for God loves all. No exceptions.

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Please stick with me for a moment, because I know this can be weird and confusing. Lutheran theology on this point (and many others) tends to violate what we’d call plain reason or common sense. But it is important to understand the core difference of theology, that is to say, what we are trying to communicate theologically to one another as Christians. What Lutheranism is trying to do is this: “Dear brother, do not live in fear, for God has loved you from before the world began, and He knew you and chose you in Christ from before the foundation of the world–therefore be confident, have your confidence in Christ, for you belong to Jesus and if you belong to Jesus you belong to God.” It is pastoral, it is about comforting one another with the Good News. It isn’t about trying to understand, in a systematic, logically cohesive manner, a system of theology that says God is Sovereign, He chose some to salvation (and, ergo, some must not be chosen); it is “Dear brother in Christ, God loves you, a sinner.”

So if God chose me, does that mean there are those God did not choose? Has God passed by or neglected some, anyone? No. Because Scripture is abundantly clear: God desires that ALL be saved, that ALL come to repentance. No exceptions. All means all. Jesus died for everyone. God wants everyone to be saved, God loves everyone, He sent Jesus for everyone, Jesus died for everyone–including everyone who rejects Him.

At this point, and I’ve seen this happen many times in conversations before, the question often becomes, “So, then, are you a Universalist? You believer everyone will be saved?” And to answer that question: No. I am not a Universalist, nor does Lutheranism teach Universalism; we do not believe that all will be saved (though, we certainly pray and hope that all will be saved, as all Christians should hope and pray for this). We recognize, as Scripture plainly shows us, that there are those who do not believe, there are those who will not be saved. So we have to answer this question: Why?

And this is such a huge question in Lutheran theology that it has a fancy name: Crux Theologorum. The Theologian’s Cross. And it is specifically this question, in Latin: Cur alii, alii non? or “Why some, not others?” This is called the Theologian’s Cross because it is a difficult thing for a theologian to carry, but it is something they must carry; because the answer to this question is not some great satisfying answer–at least not satisfying in the way we may want it to be. Because the answer ends up being “simple”, but it’s not that simple. The answer is this: Because some refuse to believe.

That’s the answer. Some are not saved because they choose to not be saved, because they reject the offer and call of the Gospel. They hear the word preached, and they shut their heart off, they shut their ears off, they turn a deaf ear to God’s call and invitation, and they tell Him “no”.

So when you said:

Damnation results from human rejection

You are exactly correct.

I’m not saved because I said yes. I’m saved because God chose me in Christ, and the Word was preached, the Holy Spirit created faith, I was brought through the waters of Holy Baptism and I was born anew by grace and grace alone.

I am damned because I say no. I’m damned because I hear and then reject the Word, because in spite of God’s great love for me, I hate God; I refuse God, I reject God–I choose myself and my passions, I choose death and ruin and hell over and against life and hope and mercy.

This, again, this is the Crux Theologorum. I am saved because God willed it out of His love for me, a sinner; I am damned because I will it, out of my own rejection of His love for me, a sinner.

I am saved because of God’s work alone.
I am damned because of my work alone.

We might, we could say, call this “Double Monergism”, if we want to get fancy with it.

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Please don’t do continuations.

Condense what you have to say.

Please direct questions, comments, or concerns regarding this warning to me in DM or to community@salemwebnetwork.com

Very well said, @SincereSeeker!

Sorry for that but I thought I avoided as many Greek/latin as possible
I’m sorry
Peace
Sam

You’re forgiven, @Samuel_23.

Since ur reply is long, i will type what i feel u wrote for the first post. I dont have much idea about Lutheran theology, u are free to correct me if i went here or there..
Thank you sir, initially I mistook you, sorry for that.
In Orthodoxy, human beings are created in the imago Dei, endowed with free will as an essential aspect of their likeness to God. From what i know abt Lutheran theology, correct me if im wrong, that it emphasizes God’s election as the efficient cause of salvation. Orthodoxy teaches synergeia where divine grace and human response work together. St.John of Damascus in his Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith states that God desires all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) but does not coerece human will, and yes that makes more sense than others calvinistic and other similar ones. Salvation is a cooperative process.
From the Lutheran side, its risks overemphasing divine initiative to the point of diminishing human responsibility. While I think Lutherans reject double predestination, their view that “we believe because God chose us” can imply a passive human role, where faith is primarily God’s work. Orthodoxy counters that God’s universal love and grace are offered to all but humans must actively respond through faith and works, as seen in the parable of the talents. This synergy is not pelagianism but a dynamic relationship where God’s grace precedes, enables and perfects human action.
Orthodoxy understands predestination not as God choosing specific individuals like the Reformed views, and u have explained it well, that its not the case. St.Paul’s reference to being “predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son” (Rom 8:29) is interpreted corporately: God predestines humanity as a whole to salvation through Christ, the Logos. As St.Maximus the Confessor explains in Ambigua, God’s will is for all to participate in the divine life, but this participation requires free human assent. Predestination, then, is God’s providential plan, not deterministc decree.
Lutheran view, while affirming God’s universal love, still frames election as God chosing individuals in Christ as the cause of their faith. this can inadvertently suggest a selection divine initiative, even if damnation is attributed to human rejection. Orthodoxy avoids this tension by emphasizing that God’s will is singular and universal, He desires all to be saved. Damnation results from persistent human rejection of grace, as u rightly said. St.John Chrysostom, in his homily on Rom 9, stresses that God’s foreknowledge respects human freedom, not overriding it with a predetermined choice.
Lutheranism rejects the Reformed doctrines of Limited Atonement, affirming that Christ died for all, Orthodoxy strongly agrees with it, but it goes further, emphasising the cosmic scope of the Creation and Atonement. Christ’s death and resurrection recapitulate all creation, as per Irenaeus of Lyons, restoring the potential for all to partake in theosis. this universal grace is not merely an offer but an active. transformative energy that permeates creation, as taught by St.Gregory Palamas in The Triads.
The Lutheran is more towards unconditional election, while it goes away from Reformed determinism, still frames salvation as an individual election rooted in God’s choice, this is what i got to know from what i have read abt it till now, if im wrong please correct me. Orthodoxy counters that God’s love is not only unconditional but universally operative, inviting all to the “marriage supper of the Lamb”. The mystery of why some reject this invitation lies in human freedom, not divine selection process in any manner or so.
As u right stated that damnation results from “human rejection, not divine neglect”. Orthodoxy concurs, but frames this within the broader context of divine love and human freedom. God’s judgement is not an active decree of reprobation but a ratification of human choices to reject theosis. As St.Basil the Great writes in On the Human Condition, God’s justice respects the free will He bestowed, allowing humans to choose life or death (Deut 30:19). The Orthodox view avoids speculating on divine decrees, focusing instead on the call to repentance and participation in the sacrements, which are means of grace for all.

Where does Paul say that God forces people to be in Heaven and Hell?

Correct, because saying that God "doesn’t intervene in any way” is not the same as "does not intervene in any way to force the free will of any creature in order for it to reach the place where God wants everyone to reach; Heaven.”

No, it says “By Grace you have been saved through faith” (Eph. 2:8-9). If the people in Heaven and Hell are there because God forces them to be, then what’s the point of even having faith? In fact, why doesn’t God just force everyone to be in Heaven?

That’s not what @SincereSeeker said.

Again, that’s not what he said, God doesn’t force people against their will.

J.

@Johann and @Soul, here is my aid:
@Johann will particularly like these theological books, all the doubts u had, are explained with precision, but i gave with reference to this topic
Specifically look at Chp 1,2 and 4:

Here is another excellent work by St.John of Damascus
Take a look at book 2 chapter 29
Book 4 chapter 21
book 2 Chapter 25-28

@Samuel_23 no doubts on my end, I want to work with the Scriptures.

J.

Noted sir Johann :saluting_face:
I just gave it as a reference, sir. These were my fav books on this topic and theology overall.
Peace
Sam

Soul, you’re asking the wrong question with “Where does Paul say God forces people to be in Heaven or Hell?” Paul never uses the word force because God doesn’t force anyone—He transforms them. This isn’t a matter of coercion. It’s a matter of regeneration. You’re imagining salvation as if it’s a divine intrusion on neutral beings when Scripture says we’re spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1). Dead men don’t drag themselves to mercy—they get raised.

You quoted Ephesians 2:8–9: “By grace you have been saved through faith.” Absolutely. But what’s your assumption? That faith is the human contribution God waits on? The text doesn’t say that. It says: “and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God.” What is the gift? Both the grace and the faith. Paul cuts off the human boast before it can even breathe.

As for your concern about God “forcing” anyone into Heaven—again, that’s not biblical language. You’re reacting to a strawman, not my position. God doesn’t drag people into glory kicking and screaming. He gives them a new heart that actually wants Him (Ezekiel 36:26). He draws them (John 6:44), grants them repentance (2 Timothy 2:25), and opens their hearts to believe (Acts 16:14). That’s not tyranny. That’s mercy on a corpse.

Your objection boils down to this: if God chooses, what’s the point of faith? But here’s the real question—if man chooses unaided, what’s the point of grace? If salvation is a partnership, then it’s a contract, not a covenant. But the gospel is not a divine offer waiting on human negotiation. It is a divine rescue enacted by sovereign love.

Heaven is not a prize for the spiritually proficient. It’s the home of those God saved by grace—grace that doesn’t beg for cooperation but births it.

—Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.

    ❗️No One Is Righteous ❗️

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their path are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
(Romans 3:9-18)

While no one is worthy of salvation, God has left the choice to receive and follow him up to us, which means we receive either eternal life or eternal condemnation, but … we decide the outcome.

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance,” (2 Peter 3:9)

“He is the atoning sacrifice that takes away our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world .” (1 John 2:2)

“For God does not show favoritism."
(Romans 2:11)
This verse emphasizes that God judges all people equally, regardless of their background or status.

Ultimately, it highlights the depth of God’s love and reminds all who seek truth that salvation is anchored in divine grace, culminating in the redemptive work of Christ.

The previous verses lead us to consider predestination from another perspective, God does not supersede our ability to choose . The truth these verses tells us is God does not want anyone to perish because his desire is for everyone to come to repentance. If God wants everyone to come to repentance, then … why not just predestine everyone!

The logical conclusion is while he wants everyone to come to repentance, he does not force everyone to come to repentance. He allows us to choose if we will repent and if we will believe. As much as he loves mankind, he will not override man’s will and allows people the freedom to choose the direction they will walk in. This has been consistent throughout scripture.

To embrace the doctrine of predestination in its extreme form is tantamount to blaming God for every bad thing that happens. Imagine if this were true.
Close down every prison! Why should we incarcerate people who are simply doing what God has predestined them to do? Someone is trying to kidnap your child or sexually assault your wife! Do you stop him? Or do you leave him alone because he’s only doing what God programmed him to do? At some some point, extreme predestination breaks down and becomes ridiculous. Why, ridiculous?

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

So, if you agree that God doesn’t force people to be in Heaven and Hell, then you agree that humans have a free will?

Synergeia @Soul ma’am, thats where i stand

Godswillbedone, I appreciate your passion—but what you’ve offered here is not biblical theology. It’s theological wishful thinking dressed up in cherry-picked verses and a deep discomfort with the idea that God might actually be God.

Let’s start at the top. You rightly quote Romans 3:10–18. “No one is righteous, no, not one… no one seeks for God.” Solid. Devastating. True. But then, in the same breath, you pivot and say, “But we choose.” Excuse me? If no one seeks God, and no one is righteous, and all have turned aside, then who exactly is doing the choosing? That’s not just contradiction—that’s spiritual schizophrenia.

Romans 3 doesn’t describe a neutral humanity waiting to be persuaded. It describes spiritual corpses. And corpses don’t choose CPR. They get raised or they stay dead.

Then you quote 2 Peter 3:9: “not wanting anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance.” Amen. But if you think God wants all to be saved, yet can’t get what He wants because man’s free will blocks Him—congratulations, you’ve just demoted the Almighty to cosmic wishful thinker. He’s now wringing His hands in heaven hoping somebody makes the right call. That’s not God. That’s a helpless spectator.

1 John 2:2 says Christ is the propitiation not only for our sins but also for the sins of the whole world. Absolutely. The atonement is sufficient for all, but effective only for the elect. Otherwise you’ve got universalism: everyone’s sins are paid for, no one goes to hell, and Christ’s blood is wasted on those who reject Him. That’s not gospel. That’s sloppy grace.

You quote Romans 2:11 to argue that God shows no favoritism. Correct. He judges impartially. But impartial judgment doesn’t mean indiscriminate grace. God has mercy on whom He has mercy (Romans 9:15). You don’t get to quote Romans 2 and ignore Romans 9 like they’re from different Bibles.

Then you say God doesn’t want to override our will. Really? Tell that to Pharaoh. “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” Not once. Multiple times. Exodus, Romans 9—it’s all there. God didn’t violate Pharaoh’s will. He gave him over to it. That’s sovereignty. That’s justice. That’s terrifying mercy.

You trot out the classic strawman: if predestination is true, why stop evil? Close the prisons? Let sin run wild? But brother, that’s not predestination—that’s fatalism. God predestines all things according to the counsel of His will without ever being the author of sin. Joseph’s brothers meant it for evil, but God meant it for good (Genesis 50:20). Same act. Two intentions. God sovereign. Man responsible. Bible says both. You can either bow or buck.

Finally, John 3:16. The “whoever” verse. And amen to every syllable. But read it carefully: “that whoever believes in Him should not perish.” It doesn’t say whoever can believe if they want to. It says those who do believe are saved. The real question is: where does that faith come from? John 6:65 answers it—“No one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

God is not waiting on man. Man is dead in sin. God gives life. That’s grace. That’s the gospel. That’s predestination—not ridiculous, but glorious.

—Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.

Soul, that question’s got the right words but the wrong wiring. Yes, I agree—God doesn’t force anyone into Heaven or Hell. But don’t take that as a blank check for autonomous free will. What you’re really asking is: does man have the kind of free will that operates independently of God’s sovereign grace? And to that, the answer is a holy no.

Humans have will. We make choices. We are responsible. Scripture screams that from Genesis to Revelation. But the kind of free will you’re defending—the kind that can choose God apart from His intervention—is nowhere in the Bible. It’s not liberty. It’s mythology.

Jesus didn’t say, “Anyone who wants to can come to Me.” He said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). That’s not a restriction on God’s love. That’s a diagnosis of human inability.

So yes, people end up in Hell by their own will. But don’t twist that into saying their will is neutral or righteous. It’s not. It’s fallen, bent, rebellious. Romans 3:11—“No one seeks for God.” And no one chooses Him until grace breaks the chain.

Free will in Scripture is real—but it’s not redemptive. It can choose what cereal to eat or what idol to worship. It cannot choose Christ unless God opens the eyes and unstops the ears and replaces the heart of stone with flesh.

So we’re not robots. But we’re not saviors either. We’re clay. And if we ever turn to the Potter, it’s because He first touched the dirt.

—Sincere Seeker. Scripturally savage. Here for the Truth.

Ah SincereSeeker:
You put the FUN in Profundity.

This post reminded me of this Psalm:

"You have hedged me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain it. "

Psalm 139

Psalm 139

O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
You know my sitting down and my rising up; You understand my thought afar off.
You comprehend my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways.
For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.

You have hedged me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain it.
Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me.
If I say, “Surely the darkness shall fall on me,” Even the night shall be light about me;
Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, But the night shines as the day; The darkness and the light are both alike to You.

For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb.
I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well.
My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them!
If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand; When I awake, I am still with You.

Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God! Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men.
For they speak against You wickedly; Your enemies take Your name in vain.
Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.

Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;
And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

Blessings
KP

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What is your understanding of Grace?

And, He doesn’t draw them against their free will.