The Moral Law & Human Conscience

General Faith
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If someone stole your phone right now, you wouldn’t just say, ‘That’s inconvenient for my personal goals.’ You would feel, ‘That is wrong.’ Where does that deep sense of ‘ought’ and ‘ought not’ come from?"

This is a pretty human and common experience. Can we all agree that certain things, like protecting an innocent child or being honest, are truly right, while things like unprovoked cruelty are truly wrong across all cultures?

If the universe is strictly the result of random physical processes and natural selection, where does a moral obligation come from? Evolution can explain why we might develop cooperation for survival, but it cannot explain why we ought to sacrifice ourselves for a stranger, or why objective evil exists beyond personal preference or cultural majority rule.

The answer is simple. It is a Biblical worldview. This is what naturally accounts for what we feel.

We are made in the image of God (Imago Dei)

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.” Genesis 1:27

Human beings have intrinsic worth and dignity because we reflect the character of our Creator. That’s why treating a person cruelly isn’t just a social mistake; it’s a violation against God.

Even if we do not understand it, the moral law is written on our hearts.

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.” Romans 2:14–15

You don’t need a copy of the Bible to know that murdering or betraying a friend is wrong. God stamped His moral signature onto the human conscience from the beginning. Which, of course, begs the question, “If a universal Moral Law exists, then there must be a Moral Lawgiver. Right?” When we examine our own hearts against that Moral Law, every single one of us falls short of our own standards, let alone God’s standard (Romans 3:23).

Therefore, the Moral Law points us to our need for a Savior. Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the Law on our behalf and offers forgiveness where we fail. Remember this. It can be used to find common ground when discussing the right and wrong of humanity.
Peter

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If someone stole my phone, I believe I would feel relief and praise God. All my phone has become at this stage of my life is yet another advertising medium which they charge me for! Not a good deal. My phone rings between 5 to 50 times per day, my family doesn’t really call me on it so I might as well let it go and let them email me if they wish.

Yes, I agree. Even Unbelievers know what is wrong and what is right.

Moral obligation comes from the conscience. It’s God’s built in device to convict people of right and wrong. Our conscience also speaks well to us when we do right and assures us that we have acted correctly. That’s in scripture.

Amen, Brother.

So men and women both have a conscience and this proves it. So if women do indeed have a conscience then their (modern) lack of accountability they display are outright lies, their not really as dumb as they usually act!

Now there’s a scary statement.

Sometimes I wonder if there will be more than 100 women who make it to heaven? Scripture says there will be no liars in heaven, period. And women treat lying like some sort of social construct which allows them to lie about everything with impunity. I’ve seen many women who are so used to lying that they even will lie about piddling things that no one has reason to lie about. Weird. And we all know deep down inside that we should not lie, yet they still do. Why do people lie so much? Does it become an addiction? Open the door for a lying spirit to inhabit them?

Amen, Brother.

Sorry Brother, I didn’t mean to trigger about lying but it made me think about it. It’s dangerous to lie. Towards the end of working for me it became somewhat difficult for me to work for customers and not lie to them but at the same time, not give up too much information of my employer which allows them to make a profit on material. Good topic.

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Well said, brother @Peter.

Of course, I concur with you. As I have thought about these things, I support your assertions about the origins of morality, and ethics in general; I believe what you have stated is accurate. I will say, however, the atheists, and antitheists have developed a well-rehearsed response to this position; one from which they rarely budge. I believe what you are saying is truth, but unfortunately, accurately reporting truisms does not do a very good job of implanting life into a dead brain, at least not in my experience.

Your theory raises a secondary, and thought-provoking question; “Why have saints been charged with spreading The Truth, if, (as is so often witnessed), accurately reporting truisms does seemingly little to alter the thinking of recalcitrant sinners?” To me, if God designed a global dispensation of “The Good News” for the purpose of convincing people to accept His offer of eternal life, then He seems to have designed one of the most inefficient methods of public persuasion ever recorded in history. If public persuasion is the goal, then it seems the enemy of truth has a much better track record; the “anti-truth” campaign has surely won far more converts.

What do you think?

KP

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Interesting question. Thank you for asking. Of course this is merely my opinion. Scripture never frames the human problem as a mere lack of information or a failure of intellectual logic. Paul writes in Ephesians 2:1 that humanity is “dead in trespasses and sins,” and in 2 Corinthians 4:4 that “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.”

A logical argument can win a debate, but only the Holy Spirit generates life. The preaching of the truth isn’t designed to be a psychological sales pitch; it is the physical instrument God uses through which the Spirit works, Romans 10:14–17.

If God’s primary objective were efficient persuasion or total intellectual compliance, He could reveal Himself undeniably in the sky. However, as I have been debating for some time here, forced compliance is not love. God desires free image-bearers who genuinely seek Him, not subjects who yield to undeniable raw power or mere intellectual defeat. The “inefficiency” allows space for authentic faith, humility, and choice.

God consistently chooses “inefficient” and weak vessels so that the power is clearly seen as belonging to Him, not human eloquence.

“But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God…” 1 Corinthians 1:27–29

Using fragile human messengers prevents us from taking credit for someone else’s salvation.

Sadly, you feel the “anti-truth campaign” wins more converts. I do agree it seems this way, more so today than ever. But biblical eschatology reminds us that broad, popular appeal was never the metric of kingdom success in this age.

“For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few”, Matthew 7:14

God’s measure of success is faithfulness, not raw headcounts.
Peter

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Brother @PeterC

Yes, yes, yes. This position can be properly defended from Scripture (and you have). Great words!

These assertations cannot be defended from scripture (and you have not supported them thus). Here’s my brotherly pushback.

#1, God HAS revealed Himself, undeniably and powerfully, many ways, and many times, and still the hardened heart of man still rejects Him.

But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ " (Luke 16:31)

#2 Often love is demonstrated through forced compliance. Disciplining children, rescuing a suicidal victim, carrying someone from a burning building, etc. And, of course, the most poignant of examples:

“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners (unwilling), Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.” (Romans 5:8-9)

#3 While it is clear God desires men to genuinely seek Him on their own, history proves that unless God orchestrates sufficient pressure (raw power) drawing them to Himself, men will continually flee from Him.

"Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of anything which the LORD your God has forbidden you. For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. "When you beget children and grandchildren and have grown old in the land, and act corruptly and make a carved image in the form of anything, and do evil in the sight of the LORD your God to provoke Him to anger, I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will soon utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed. And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you. And there you will serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell.
But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the LORD your God and obey His voice (for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them. (Deuteronomy 4:23-31)

#4 If “space” somehow produced humility, sound choices, and/or genuine faith, we would surely witness that somewhere. We often witness space doing the exact opposite.

“Then I saw the wicked buried, who had come and gone from the place of holiness, and they were forgotten in the city where they had so done. This also is vanity. Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily (space is given), therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Though a sinner does evil a hundred times, and his days are prolonged, yet I surely know that it will be well with those who fear God, who fear before Him. But it will not be well with the wicked; nor will he prolong his days, which are as a shadow, because he does not fear before God.” (Ecclesiastes 8:10-13)

Yes, yes, yes, again. Great reminder.

Thanx Bro Pete
KP

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Simply amazing, KP. You really exhibit a Spirit-led, pastoral heart here. It is genuinely encouraging to see.

J.

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@KPuff, i would echo Johann’s sentiment. Amen

I do believe there absolutely is a place for tough love. Many of the things I have need to work through is receiving its most rightly place. In one of your examples you share how Christ dying for us is an example of force to step in. I understand that for Christ to come it would invade the human arena. Amen. But I don’t believe the word of God implies Christ’s arrival by force. As James White, for example, would see the cross as the most beautiful example of God’s Holy anger and justice–while the word itself professes it as His love toward us…I believe the tendency to view God through power/force eyes is of human agency, not divine. Stated plainly. That which believes to be a guardian of God’s holiness, hoping to come from a heart that better understands Him, it would seem, might testify of the flesh: power, might, force (Matt 20:25).

You clearly have a caring, loving, and compassionate heart brother. And it shows all throughout your postings. But to me, and I am just speaking from genuine observation of the issues discussed…not as one meant to oppose individual understandings however we may hold them, the focus on God’s force of power is anti-bible. To me, it is of the human breed. That which for example in the reformed perspective professes to be orators rightly aligned with the things of God. Yet far more closely align with the fleshiness of Matt 20:25 conceptuals and thought structures in the like thereof–even making them deity itself in cases. By this I don’t mean it blunt force of words. But in hopes to just lay out a concern. I say anti-biblical because the power of the gospel I would not see as God’s brute force into the human domain. But a sacrifice is how He put it. In His own words. Not ours (John 3:16). Along with these thoughts as well..

  • Zechariah 4:6
  • Jeremiah 31:3
  • Romans 2:4 (of all places to show up)
  • Romans 5:8 (as seen as gentle healing rather than force)
  • Romans 12:1 (by good, not mirror imaging force)
  • Titus 3:4-5
  • 2 Cor 5:14
  • 2 Cor 5:19-20
  • John 3:16
  • John 10:15

This list can be very long. I understand wanting to defend God’s right to intervene. And from theological prose find even necessity in so doing. But this line of thinking I believe turns the gospel upside down. And was the reason the little pamphlet The Tale of Three Kings became so popular in the 1980’s. As thousands of emails poured in about so much church abuse of authority, Tyndale House in the 1990s made that pamphlet gold publishing status (750k sold) for a book that was not hot press like material at all. But because it address super widespread authoritarianism abuse in the church wide America.

My favorite verse on this is Hosea 11:9 by contrast. My reason for posting this is just that let’s say even if the reformed approach is accurate (which I would not support), because of such massive church leadership tendency of abuse (fundamentalists, and high Calvinists etc), I don’t think the church can handle the truth. In our hands, that theological attainment tends to prime ways laity aids and abets the suffocation and devouring of one another quite often in orthopraxy. As I have had share in, even myself, in the state of the church being this trainwreck today. For we are the age of all that.

Well, I just wanted to note that this tendency to lean in the protection and defense of a “forceful god” fits well within the realm of Greko-Roman mythology, but in all honesty hoping to come here from a humble and real “raw” place myself…has no place like we do in holy thought biblically. Just saying. Blessings.

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Never said this nor implied it. Work with the Scriptures and answer questions directed to you.

J.

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Actually, Luke 16:31 supports my core point. Jesus explicitly states that a miraculous spectacle (rising from the dead) will not produce moral turning if the heart rejects the witness of “Moses and the Prophets.”

There is a profound difference between a historical miracle witnessed by a few (which can still be doubted or rationalized by others) and an overwhelming, ongoing, global manifestation of divine presence, God writing in the sky in real-time above every city.

If God were to manifest His terrifying, undeniable majesty continuously before all mankind, compliance would become a function of existential self-preservation, not faith or love. James 2:19 notes:

“You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder!”

Demons have full intellectual certainty, yet zero love. This proves that intellectual compulsion is fundamentally distinct from saving faith (pistis).

Rescuing someone from a burning building is an act of restraint or preservation, not an act of relational union. A firefighter can drag you out of a burning house without your consent, but a firefighter cannot force you to love, trust, or marry them against your will.

God frequently restrains human evil (common grace) or pulls humans back from physical/moral destruction. However, the end goal of salvation is not merely physical extraction from hell; it is covenantal communion. Forced love is an ontological contradiction. Romans 5 proves God’s unilateral initiative in providing the atonement (“while we were yet sinners”), but it does not claim that God forces humans into a state of involuntary love. God initiates the remedy, but covenant relationship still requires a heart that turns (metanoia).

Deuteronomy 4:29 says,

“From there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.”

God’s severe mercy (chastisement) strips away human self-sufficiency and false idols so that humans can see their true condition. However, the distress itself does not mechanically produce repentance. It creates the context where a genuine choice must be made.

The pigpen didn’t drag the Prodigal Son home by force. The famine and hardship allowed him to “come to his senses,” but he still had to freely choose: “I will arise and go to my father.” Divine pressure removes illusions; it does not replace the heart’s agency.

This is the key logical distinction. “Space” (divine restraint/hiddenness) is necessary for authentic moral choice, even if it is not sufficient to guarantee that every person makes the right choice. If God struck down every sinner in real-time (instant judgment), obedience would be driven purely by immediate terror (like driving 10mph over the limit with a police cruiser riding your bumper).

If God struck down every sinner in real-time (instant judgment), obedience would be driven purely by immediate terror (like driving 10mph over the limit with a police cruiser riding your bumper).

2 Peter 3:9 directly addresses why judgment is delayed:

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”

God grants epistemic and temporal space precisely to give room for genuine repentance, even knowing that many will misuse that space to harden themselves (as Ecclesiastes notes)

Thank you for the kind words, my brother. Be blessed, be a blessing.
Peter

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@TCC. Thank you for bringing a cross-centered and scripturally rich perspective that cuts right to the heart of how we understand the character of God.

To step back and look at the whole picture: the central question here isn’t whether God possesses absolute power. He obviously does. The question is how God chooses to exercise His power in relation to human image-bearers.

I believe that you rightly point out a dangerous tendency in human theology: we naturally project earthly, Greco-Roman concepts of brute force onto God. Jesus explicitly warns us against this human framework in Matthew 20:25–28:

“But Jesus called them to him and said, 'You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

If earthly authority operates by “lording over” and crushing into compliance, divine authority operates by radical self-giving. God’s ultimate demonstration of power was not a show of cosmic intimidation in the sky, but the vulnerability of the cross (1 Cor. 1:23–24). As you pointed out, John 3:16 and John 10:15 frame the gospel as a sacrifice, not an invasive military takeover of the human soul.

When we view God primarily through the lens of irresistible physical or existential force, we risk remaking Him in the image of human rulers, a trajectory that, as history and books like The Tale of Three Kings show, has frequently led to authoritarianism and spiritual abuse within church leadership.

Scripture is explicit about what actually breaks the human heart into genuine repentance:

“Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?” Romans 2:4

“For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;” 2 Corinthians 5:14

God’s primary instrument of drawing humanity isn’t brute pressure; it is His overwhelming gentleness, long-suffering, and self-sacrificial love.

When Israel rebelled, human logic dictated that God should use raw, destructive power to crush them into submission. But look at God’s own declaration of His character in Hosea 11:9:

"I will not execute my burning anger;

I will not again destroy Ephraim;

for I am God and not a man,

the Holy One in your midst,

and I will not come in wrath."

God explicitly contrasts His divine character with human nature. Humans resort to force, retaliation, and coercive power when defied. God demonstrates His ultimate holiness through restraint, mercy, and covenant patience.

As 2 Peter 3:9 notes, God delays His return and judgment not because He lacks power, but because He is patient, giving space for genuine turning rather than immediate destruction. Rescuing someone from a burning building (or restraining evil) can be done by force. But covenant love, genuine trust, and worship cannot be forced without destroying the very nature of what is being offered.

God does not want coerced subjects yielding to raw power; He desires free image-bearers who respond to His self-sacrificial love. The cross, not raw, overwhelming force, is the true measure of how God wins the human heart.

Blessings to you and yours.

Peter

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@PeterC and @TCC

I genuinely appreciate both of you taking the time, and expending the effort to explain your current position on the process of human salvation. Your explanations greatly help me understand the variety of points-of-view that intermingle within the Body of Christ, and make it the beautiful mosaic that is surely is. Thank-you.

As our topic is “The Moral Law & Human Conscience”, I am going to demur reiterating my personal POV on the process of salvation, and rejoice in the degree of unity that we do share, in the name of our common Spirit, for the edification of His body, looking forward untill "we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to perfect men, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”. We run this race together, toward the prize of unity, “that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head–Christ-- from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." (excerpts: Ephesians 4:12-16)

Pastor Peter, you make some very strong points, and your confidence in your conclusions is evident. I commend you. From my desk-chair it appears to me that you may be filtering out some personal meaning from some scriptures to support previous conclusion, but I readily admit, I most likely do that too. I’m not sure that problem is 100% avoidable this side of Glory (I may be wrong).

Much of your supporting argument seems based on refuting the extreme opposition, tacitly suggesting that the extreme opposition POV is my personal POV. Let me assure you, my personally filtered POV does not proffer that “the end goal of salvation is merely physical extraction from hell”, nor do I preach anything akin to “forced love” or that “God forces humans into a state of involuntary love”. I do not suggest that the stress of discipline “mechanically produces repentance”, that “God wants coerced subjects yielding to raw power”, nor do I pray that God would “strike down every sinner in real-time”. If someone else believes these things, I have never met them. My personal POV on the process of salvation is more accurately in the same vein with the process of Lazarus being raised from the dead (John 11) if you get the simile. Yes, brother Lazarus did volitionally standup, and walk out of the tomb, but no one has ever suggested Jesus made him do it against his will. That would sound silly. When given the real opportunity to rise from the dead, no one says “no”.

@TCC, I hear you. From this thread, and other posts you have written I sense you have experienced a personal degree of traumatic abuse from some authority(s) that have left scars. I suppose that since the damage is real, you are more comfortable viewing your loving heavenly Father as a kind and gentle shepherd, who would do anything for His sheep. You are not wrong; He is definitely all that. While we are often admonished from God’s word to “Fear God” we are also often comforted with the words “fear not”. Like feral cats, we are prone to see others in one or the other spaces, either they are to be feared, or they are always beneficent toward us. When we are speaking of God, neither pole can be avoided; He is definitely both. I admit, however, we all probably lean heaver to one side than the other.

Again, let me say how much I cherish both of your views, and I appreciate the kindness you show me by tolerating this old saint.

I share Peter’s valediction:
Be blessed, and be a blessing.

KP

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Ephesians 2:1-7
1:20-2:7
THE THRONE ROOM
Prayer for Wisdom and Revelation (1:20-23)
& Positional Relocation (2:1-7)
1. The Content of the Prayer (1:20-23)
2. The New Position in the Heavenlies (2:1-7)
Welcome to the Throne Room explore it and let the Spirit of the house enlighten you.
The Throne Room is a place where God reigns and is worshipped,
its here that we in details understand who God is and as well understands our true position in Him.
2. The New Position in the Heavenlies (2:1-7)
Paul brings us back to our past and reveals us our sinful nature and its result.(v.1-3)
V.1 a) Welfare -
“Dead” Our trespasses and sins caused us to be dead toward God. Gen.2:17; Eph.2:12
Man is not sick and somehow able to be cured from sinfulness, he is dead and need God to quicken him.
V.2 b) Walk -
Our walk was with the crowds and they walked after the spirit of the world and the spirit of the world is the devil himself.
The Ephesians were practicing witchcraft. Acts 19:19 (Gr. Peripateo) means to walk without destination.
c) Work -
Our former works was selfish pleasure and therefore we were sons of the devil. Jam.3:14-16
V.3 d) Want -
“Conducted ourselves in the lusts” We were once moved by our wants, our fleshly desires,
“what I want and not the want of others and God”.
e) Wickedness -
“Fulfilling the desires” We not only did what we wanted, but did it
to that extent that the measure of our desires were fulfilled, therefore our desires were wickedness.
f) Wrath -
Because of our many sins, our walking in Satan’s footsteps, our evil works, our selfish lives,
our wicked desires, we then became the devil’s children destined only to receive the wrath of God: The lake of fire. Rev.20:15
Now Paul brings us to the present and future and shows us the mercy and grace of
** God that were greater than our multitude of sins and depth of wickedness.**
** It contrasts our depth (evil) to the depth of God (love).**
V.4 a) Rich mercy -
Mercy is not getting what we do deserve.
** We can’t outrun the mercy of God we can only resist it with our pride. Tit.3:5**
b) Great love -
Love is the very nature of God. 1.John 4:7-11; 3:1
This love is greater than our hearts. 1.John 3:20 It’s so great that it takes all saints of all times corporately to understand His love. Eph.3:17-19
V.5-7 c) I. He made us alive (We were dead). Col.2:13
II. He made us sit in the heavenly place (We were sinking into hell). Col.3:1-3
To sit is a resting position and we can all rest in the finished work of Christ.
III. He will show us in the ages to come His exceeding rich grace (We were to be shown His eternal wrath).
IV. These are given in Christ.
V.7 d) Exceeding rich grace -
Grace is getting what we do not deserve.
I. Grace is the loving touch of the Father unto an undeserved creature that is disgraceful.
II. Rich mercy + Great love = Exceeding rich grace.
III. Not only grace but rich grace and if we still doubts His rich grace, he adds exceeding rich grace.

All glory to Abba and our Lord Jesus Christ.

J.

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Yes, @Johann
One might say “grace is getting what we do not deserve”. Exceedingly rich grace may be seen as: obtaining favor that we do not deserve, favor which we do not even want (at least not prior to recieving grace), and favor that we have never even pursued or thought of.

Lazarus, while dead in the tomb, did not deserve being raised, did not pursue being raised, and had not even tought of being raised, (at least not being raised until “he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”(as spoken by Martha)). Lazarus could not have made the decison to be raised, because he was dead.

Great example.
KP

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I do believe we read the process of salvation as it stands written in Scripture in much the same way, especially as I reflect on my own testimony and remember that momentous Aorist event.

Shalom brother.

J.

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Yes, my testimony of my own “momentous aorist event” is being raised from the dead; a favor I did not deserve, one I was not pursuing, and upon waking, realizing I could not have “agreed” to any of it by virue of my own dead will.

KP

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Be careful, brother. You will certainly be challenged for writing this, although I am in full agreement with you. Scripture gives us so many examples of God’s grace and mercy superabounding toward us when we were dead in trespasses and sins. Paul says that we were “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1), yet God, being rich in mercy, “made us alive together with Christ” (Eph. 2:4–5). Likewise, Colossians 2:13 says that when we were dead in our trespasses, God “made you alive together with him.” We see the same sovereign work of God in John 5:21, where the Son gives life to whom He will, and in Ezekiel 36:26–27, where God promises to give His people a new heart and put His Spirit within them.

That is why I am concerned whenever the discussion turns toward “free will” as though the decisive factor in our coming to Christ ultimately rests in ourselves. Scripture seems to place the emphasis elsewhere, on God’s mercy, grace, and life-giving work in those who were spiritually dead. “It depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy” (Rom. 9:16).

I say this only between you and me, brother. I am not looking to create another theological battle. I simply believe we need to allow Scripture to speak on its own terms and give God all the glory for bringing the dead to life.

Blessings to you and family.

J.

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This is very well said Peter. I like this. :slight_smile: Blessings.

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Thanks KP. And I thank you for your highlight of Eph 4:16. I see that section of scripture to be of high import these days. Honestly, though, its not so much of what I went through. In most cases, because Jmac’s church is a very mature and nuanced demonstration of some orthopraxy most churches i have visited could ever even imagine operating like (and i mean this in the positive), I would say most of my thoughts on my injured past has to do with how God actually meant it in them. Like solving a puzzle. I’m kind of a firecracker to deal with. lol. So it is understood why I might have put a church through what i did. Had it not been for a dear sister saint who saw in me what my concerns were, and the church honored it on steroids, most of the drama i went through would not have even been on the radar at all. So i kind of see my past experiences as kind of proverbial. Providential even.

My views on the concerns i share with ideology or theological nuances in leadership, for me, I believe have far more connection to viewing the modern church through a Laodicean filter. Because as I have watched how G3 ministries, and the greater American Reformed theater plays things out in public (knowing what i do about deeply intricate church operational mechanics from likely the Godfather like American entity church itself-the Jmac empire), things are quite adrift contemporaneously by many standards having little to do with my situation.

When I think of my situation I think of what God meant in the well meaning hearts at church. And where I am still stubborn. When i see orthopraxy grand theater play out on the national stage, I have quite a lot of unbiased intel by which to go by. Because when i apply it to myself, I start with making myself the bad guy first. And then consider their ways. Yet still, there is quite a measure of operational concern today just in how things play out in the national public square. Which is “a” witness of sorts at least. So i think it is maybe more likely accurate that i see what i do in the grand theater because I was kind of finding it necessary to dig extremely deeply into church polity to understand what they did not otherwise know how to express. And then tour many churches over time to see nuances of it. Some very endearing. And some rather scary.

After i went back into the world for 4 years out of despair with the church, I came back to the same church because I wanted to discover what went wrong. With me, With them. Whatever. And i gave my whole heart. One thing that did bring me back was the no-nonsense rugged God of the reformed world (although i did not know “reformed” at that time). I have 0 issues with a God of thunder. We want that strong intense God when we need His defense. My straight forward style of communication is predicated on a tough and rugged God. It is not so much that those ways of His don’t resonate or agree with me, as much as it is how it has seemed we have made perhaps caricature of it by way to minister. “Beth Moore Go Home.” For example. Oooh big daddy. And that becomes a social example of manliness and being the tough guy. I’m sorry but to me that is weak posturing posing as strong. And it is truly sad our age falls for it. That is not to say Beth should not go home…lol. Now that is a totally different issue.

. . . . .

In any event to join forces with moving this back to center: The Moral Law and Human Conscience: I would connect where this went with this thread topic to perhaps bring notice of what I have seen over the years in honest extreme critique even of my own views (as I have shared elsewhere, I am my own harshest critique of my own eschatological views…because no one else holds them and it be at least a way, feeble as it might, to have some accountability going…lol), that there is a trend today where the world hungers for authenticity.

As a human race, we will never arrive at total clarity on anything. But as we have been created in His image “fallen,” i believe we have become more real with each other over time. And more self aware. Not as a rule by any stretch. But with the rise of the internet and the ability to communicate with one another all over the world, we have had more opportunity to research and discover. To challenge narratives that should be. And the notion is that being “authentic” and real is preferred to being too polished. And this I would note as a robust human condition outpouring from being created in His image. A ripening coming of age moment.

This is very different than an awareness that God exists because of us being created in His image. But I guess my point is in being amazed at how evidence of His person shines through even the unbeliever in this respect. The desire for the genuine and it take the world by storm through such an impersonal media as the internet to boot. Our conscience poureth forth its yearning for “the moral law of what is actually most real and genuine about and in regards to/of us.” The moral law that what is not real is as valuable as what is real–reflected, personified, massively animated on front street for all to see." If that makes sense? Blessings.

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As for the resurrection of Lazurus, this was one of the core eye openers for me in the early stages of considering what place the reformed perspective might have in my life. It has been said that the Prodigal Son is a fair representation of coming back from the dead. Because we see apples for apples. A man alive. Turning from his stubborn ways. Had been dead to the father. But became alive.

In well meant discussion style, I would not see Lazurus as apples to apples. But apples to oranges. It has been stated of me I tend to be a bit heavy on analogy. But that is what this is. Lazurus was physically dead. And there is no scriptural poetic license to make it an “analogy” for coming to know God. Lazurus was already a believer. When i realized this, it was “unanalogy” that woke me. Blessings.

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Ephesians 2:1-10

Sin is the death of the soul. A man dead in trespasses and sins has no desire for spiritual pleasures. When we look upon a corpse, it gives an awful feeling. A never-dying spirit is now fled, and has left nothing but the ruins of a man. But if we viewed things aright, we should be far more affected by the thought of a dead soul, a lost, fallen spirit. A state of sin is a state of conformity to this world. Wicked men are slaves to Satan. Satan is the author of that proud, carnal disposition which there is in ungodly men; he rules in the hearts of men. From Scripture it is clear, that whether men have been most prone to sensual or to spiritual wickedness, all men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath. What reason have sinners, then, to seek earnestly for that grace which will make them, of children of wrath, children of God and heirs of glory! God’s eternal love or good-will toward his creatures, is the fountain whence all his mercies flow to us; and that love of God is great love, and that mercy is rich mercy. And every converted sinner is a saved sinner; delivered from sin and wrath. The grace that saves is the free, undeserved goodness and favour of God; and he saves, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus. Grace in the soul is a new life in the soul. A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul; he lives a life of holiness, being born of God: he lives, being delivered from the guilt of sin, by pardoning and justifying grace. Sinners roll themselves in the dust; sanctified souls sit in heavenly places, are raised above this world, by Christ’s grace. The goodness of God in converting and saving sinners heretofore, encourages others in after-time, to hope in his grace and mercy. Our faith, our conversion, and our eternal salvation, are not of works, lest any man should boast These things are not brought to pass by any thing done by us, therefore all boasting is shut out. All is the free gift of God, and the effect of being quickened by his power. It was his purpose, to which he prepared us, by blessing us with the knowledge of his will, and his Holy Spirit producing such a change in us, that we should glorify God by our good conversation, and perseverance in holiness. None can from Scripture abuse this doctrine, or accuse it of any tendency to evil. All who do so, are without excuse.
MH

“Unbelievers are spiritually dead in their sins (cf. Eph_2:1). However, God has given new life to believers. The only way a dead person can have any fellowship with the living God is for God to give him or her new life (cf. Rom_4:17). Regeneration is an act of God in grace. Regeneration results in the commencement and continuation of new life. “Have been saved” is in the perfect tense in Greek indicating an ongoing permanent condition”.

J.

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