The Second Death

Theology
1

This was brought up in a different topic; however, I believe this to be a fascinating study. The Second Death. Now there are three views of hell. Well, ok four.

1- Not real.

2- Just a separation from God.

3- Eternal Torment.

4- The one I truly hope is true, the Second Death.

Now there is no doubt that there is a Second Death.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’” Revelation 2:11

Here

“Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.” Revelation 20:6

Also here:

“But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

So the second death is real, and it exists. What does it mean? We have Jesus saying that the eternal punishment is eternal suffering, where night and day there will be gnashing of teeth and suffering without end. I believe this is how most see hell. This is how I used to see hell. But then you have this.

“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” Malachi 4:1

“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:14

Is the suffering in hell during the Thousand-Year Reign of Christ? Then to be ended, destroyed, leaving nothing, when the devil himself is cast into the lake and burned up? When death itself is burned up? Would a loving God not desire to end the torment of any of His Creatures, or is it, as it has been believed for thousands of years, that it is eternal torment by the choices we make? What say you? Anyone?

Peter

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2

The lost are said to be perishing.

Eternal life is said to be a gift from God

To be eternally an consciously tormented in hell, one would have to have eternal life.

There may be a point at which the unsaved are allowed to pass out of existence.

3 Likes
3

@PeterC

I am all for an intense debate, but if Hell is not real and if OSAS is dismissed as some form of gnosticism, then how would you even define the second death, and how would you account for the entire biblical vocabulary that names and describes the realm of final judgment with terrifying precision using Hebrew terms like Sheol (שְׁאוֹל) meaning the realm of the dead and always pointing downward in Hebrew worldview, and Gehenna (גֶּיהִנּם) meaning the Valley of Hinnom later becoming the Jewish idiom for eschatological punishment, and Greek terms like Hades (ᾅδης) meaning the intermediate place of the dead, and Gehenna (γέεννα) used by Jesus for final fiery judgment, and Tartarus (ταρταρόω) used in ~2 Peter 2:4 for the deepest imprisoning gloom, and the lake of fire called limnē tou puros (λίμνη τοῦ πυρός) in ~Revelation 20, along with synonyms like aionios kolasis (αἰώνιος κόλασις) meaning eternal punishment in ~Matthew 25, and phlox puros (φλόξ πυρός) meaning flame of fire in ~2 Thessalonians 1, and zophos tou skotous (ζόφος τοῦ σκότους) meaning deepest darkness in Jude, all of which converge on the same eschatological reality that Scripture names with an astonishingly consistent lexicon.

If Hell is unreal, then what do you do with the second death in ~Revelation 20 when death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire and this is called ho thanatos ho deuteros (ὁ θάνατος ὁ δεύτερος), and the verb eblēthē (ἐβλήθη) meaning was thrown is aorist passive indicative presenting a decisive divine act, and the same phrase recurs in ~Revelation 21 when the unbelieving and unrepentant hexousin (ἕξουσιν) meaning they will have their portion in that same lake of fire which Scripture again identifies as ho thanatos ho deuteros, a future outcome that is neither symbolic nor metaphorical but eschatologically fixed.

If Hell is unreal, then what is Jesus describing in ~Mark 9 when He quotes Isaiah saying the worm does not die lo tamut (לא תמות) and the fire is not quenched lo tikhbeh (לא תכבה), where both Hebrew verbs are imperfect forms expressing ongoing duration, and Jesus renders them with Greek gnomic presents ou teleuta (οὐ τελευτᾷ) meaning does not end and ou sbennutai (οὐ σβέννυται) meaning is not quenched, both asserting an unending condition that fits the fire of Gehenna, not symbolic imagery.

If Hell is unreal, then what becomes of ~Matthew 10 where Jesus warns of Gehenna after killing body and soul, and the verb apolesai (ἀπολέσαι) meaning to destroy does not mean annihilate but ruin and undo, the same verb Jesus uses for lost sheep and lost coins which clearly remain conscious and retrievable.

If Hell is unreal, then how do you handle ~Revelation 14 where the smoke of torment anaibanei (ἀναβαίνει) meaning rises forever, a present tense form that rolls its action forward endlessly, and the phrase eis aiōnas aiōnōn meaning into the ages of the ages is the strongest expression for eternal duration in biblical Greek.

If Hell is unreal, then what is the second death, because the second death is not Sheol, and it is not Hades, and it is not the grave, but the final irreversible state of judgment when all the temporary realms are emptied and cast into the lake of fire, a place described with the vocabulary of fire puros (πυρός), brimstone theiou (θείου), torment basanismos (βασανισμός), exclusion apo prosopou tou Kyriou (ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ Κυρίου) meaning from the presence of the Lord in ~2 Thessalonians 1, and outer darkness to skotos to exōteron (τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον) in ~Matthew 8, all referring to the same eschatological reality Scripture names in multiple languages, multiple eras, and multiple genres.

If OSAS is falsely called gnosticism, then we must still ask what the second death means for those not sealed, and this is where the power of sealing becomes the dividing line, because the sealed believer is promised deliverance from the second death, and the verb esphragisthēte (ἐσφραγίσθητε) in ~Ephesians 1 meaning you were sealed is aorist passive indicative portraying a complete and decisive divine act, and the Spirit is called the arrabōn (ἀρραβών) meaning the pledge or earnest guaranteeing future inheritance, a term that in the ancient world was legally binding by definition, which means the second death is real judgment for the unsealed, but becomes an impossibility for those sealed in Christ.

So if Hell is unreal and the second death is unreal, the biblical vocabulary “collapses”, the grammar collapses, the warnings of Jesus collapse, the eschatology of John collapses, the prophetic imagery of Isaiah collapses, and the sealing texts of Paul collapse, but if Scripture speaks truthfully, then the second death is the final conscious state of judgment for those who reject Christ, and the entire multilingual biblical witness stands as one unified testimony.
?

J.

2 Likes
4

You do love long sentences. First, I do believe Hell is real. I never said I did not. As a matter of fact, I have done whole messages about Hell and the Devil. I know this is not a popular teaching anymore, even in some of our Churches, but it is the Truth. Hell is very real. So why the lack of teaching this? No Devil, then no Hell. No Devil, no Hell, no Sin. No Sin, no reason for a Savior. No Savior, no God. No evil means no good. No Hell, then no Heaven. No judgment for sin, if there is no sin. Simply, live as you will.

It always amazes me when someone tells me that they believe in Jesus and a loving God, yet they do not believe in the Devil or Hell. Then what exactly is Jesus “saving” you from? The lack of teaching these things is out of fear. Fear of offending someone. Fear of being labeled this or that. Or simply fear of their own lifestyle. So yes, Hell is real.

The question, and again, I’m not 100 percent sure, is this. When someone goes to Hell, is it for a day, a thousand years, or forever? I would love to believe that there is an end. The torment lasts for a time, and then they are annihilated and gone. However, I am sadly not convinced.

That would be the argument for annihilation. To rid existence of the evil permanently. This is why we see the Devil, his followers, and, as the Word says, this.

“Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence, the earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:11-15

“The sea, death, and hell” give up those in there? Then, following judgment, “Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

So if Hell no longer exists? Where are they to be tormented? If they are thrown in the Lake of fire, are they simply eternal rotisserie?

Me too. But that is not what I intended for this. Simply, what are people’s thoughts and opinions of the Second Death?

Peter

1 Like
5

@PeterC

Before we go further I need to understand where you stand, so do you personally lean more toward reformed theology or arminian theology, and I ask only so I can follow your reasoning from Scripture as you see it.

J.

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6

Truthfully, I believe in the five Solas. I always thought I was more along the lines of reformed theology; however, I do believe in falling from grace and the free will of all humans to do whatever they choose. With consequences, of course.

Hope this helps.

Peter

1 Like
7

Thank you for your honesty and transparency @PeterC , I’m curious, have you ever read the patristic sources from before Augustine, and what insights did you take from them?

And I take it this will be your go to verses re “falling away from grace?”

Hebrews repeatedly warns genuine believers: Hebrews 2:1–3 (pay closer attention lest you drift away), Hebrews 3:12–14 (take care, brethren, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, leading you to fall away from the living God), Hebrews 4:1 (fear lest any of you seem to have come short of entering His rest), Hebrews 6:4–6 (those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, and fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance), Hebrews 10:26–31 (if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no sacrifice for sins).

Other passages include 2 Peter 2:20–22 (if they escape the defilements of the world through knowledge of Christ yet are again entangled and overcome, the last state is worse than the first), Galatians 5:4 (Christ becomes of no effect to you if you seek to be justified by the law after beginning in the Spirit), 1 Corinthians 10:12 (let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall), and Revelation 3:5, 16:15–16 (the overcomers will be clothed in white, implying some will not).

These are not isolated hypotheticals; the grammar often signals ongoing potential, present participles, subjunctives, and warnings addressed to a known community of believers. They show the Scriptures expect vigilance, obedience, and reliance on the Spirit, and nowhere does the text suggest that mere initial belief grants immunity from apostasy.

This from Utley…

New Testament
This Greek term is literally “to apostasize.” The Old and New Testaments both confirm an intensification of evil and false teaching before the Second Coming (cf. Matt. 24:24; Mark 13:22; Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thess. 3:9-12; 2 Tim. 4:4). This Greek term may reflect Jesus’ words in the Parable of the Soils found in Matthew 13; Mark 4; and Luke 8. These false teachers are obviously not Christians, but they came from within (cf. Acts 20:29-30; I John 2:19); however, they are able to seduce and capture immature believers (cf. Heb. 3:12). Those who are seduced share the same fate as the false teachers themselves.
The theological question is, “Were the false teachers ever believers?” This is difficult to answer because there were false teachers in the local churches (cf. 1 John 2:18-19; see SPECIAL TOPIC: FALSE TEACHERS). Often our theological or denominational traditions answer this question without reference to specific Bible texts (except the proof-text method of quoting a verse out of context to supposedly prove one’s bias).
Apparent faith
Judas Iscariot, John 17:12
Simon Magnus, Acts 8:9-24
those spoken of in Matt. 7:13-23
those spoken of in the Parable of the Soils in Matthew 13; Mark 4; Luke 8
the “believing” Jews of John 8:31-59
Alexander and Hymenaeus, 1 Tim. 1:19-20
those of 1 Tim. 4:1; 6:21
Hymenaeus and Philetus, 2 Tim. 2:16-18
Demas, 2 Tim. 4:10
false teachers, 2 Peter 2:19-22; Jude 1:12-19
antichrists, 1 John 2:18-19
Fruitless faith
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
2 Peter 1:8-11
The unique situation of Hebrews, written to a synagogue of believing and unbelieving Jews (note esp. Heb. 5:11-6:8; 10:26-31; see Robert Glaze, No Easy Salvation and my exegetical notes online at www.freebiblecommentary.org

We rarely think about these texts because our systematic theology (Calvinism, Arminianism, etc.) dictates the mandated response.

Please do not pre-judge me because I bring up this subject. My concern is proper hermeneutical procedure. We must let the Bible speak to us and not try to mold it into a preset theology. This is often painful and shocking because much of our theology is denominational, cultural, or relational (parent, friend, pastor), not biblical (see Special Topic: What Does It Mean to “receive,” “believe,” “confess/profess,” “call upon”?). Some who are in the People of God turn out to not be in the People of God (e.g., Rom. 9:6).
I would just add that perseverance is as crucial a NT doctrine as is assurance.
SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSEVERANCE
SPECIAL TOPIC: ASSURANCE
SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRISTIAN ASSURANCE
For a good discussion of this issue from an Arminian perspective (of which I am a part), see
Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, pp. 348-365
Robert Shank
Life in the Son
Elect in the Son
I. Howard Marshall, Kept By the Power of God

J.

8

Also to you. Thank you for your thoughtful response. I am of the belief that we really must be careful. Jesus Says,

“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

Or we read this.

“And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

New believers, or babes in Christ, can read that and know, Jesus is God, and there is no other way to heaven. God can speak to them and show them who He is.

Then you have people like you and me who read it and understand that the name “Jesus” is a literalization of His name. Or a Translation from three different languages. We know, His actual name is Yeshua. We must be careful when pointing something like this out, that we do not give the impression that if you call Jesus God, or you say His name above all names is not Jesus, but Yeshua, you would be incorrect in saying “Jesus” is the name above all names, you could create confusion. Sometimes, simple is best. It is what it is, and it says what it says.

We may appreciate a deeper study into language; however, we must be careful in becoming so wise that we miss the true intention of the message. Worse, we confuse someone who is trying to learn and grow.

This can also be a tactic, not saying you, but that some could use to falsely claim when the word says something clearly meaning one thing, that it doesn’t because of this or that. Most people never hear of the patristic sources, or have access to the original Hebrew or Greek, or the ability to understand if they did. Take this as an example.

Hebrew: לֹא תִּרְצָח, romanized: Lo tirṣaḥ or Ancient Greek: Οὐ φονεύσεις, romanized: Ou phoneúseis. This would mean nothing to them. In our English transactions. Thou shalt not kill.

But then you can get lost in the whole; this is a poor translation. We kill things all day long. Plants, bugs, animals for food. The proper word is Murder. The taking of an innocent life. Then people, like vegans, can use that to say “Well, is the cow or the pig not innocent. Therefore, eating them is murder.” Then you have to go even more in-depth and say no.

The Commandment against murder can also be viewed as based on respect for God himself.

“And the LORD said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.” Genesis 4:10–11

You see what I mean? You and I appreciate a deeper study, and if we find it corrective, ok. However, for most, Thou Shalt Not Kill. Maybe with the clarification, it means murder, is sufficient.

Hope you understand my point is not a dig or anything towards you, just my method of teaching.

Peter

9

??

Guess you have not read my post and this is not a “dig” at you at all.

J.

10

Now I’m confused. lol

Peter

11

Same here, see The Second Death - #7 by Johann

I shared…

This from Utley…

New Testament
This Greek term is literally “to apostasize.” The Old and New Testaments both confirm an intensification of evil and false teaching before the Second Coming (cf. Matt. 24:24; Mark 13:22; Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thess. 3:9-12; 2 Tim. 4:4). This Greek term may reflect Jesus’ words in the Parable of the Soils found in Matthew 13; Mark 4; and Luke 8. These false teachers are obviously not Christians, but they came from within (cf. Acts 20:29-30; I John 2:19); however, they are able to seduce and capture immature believers (cf. Heb. 3:12). Those who are seduced share the same fate as the false teachers themselves.
The theological question is, “Were the false teachers ever believers?” This is difficult to answer because there were false teachers in the local churches (cf. 1 John 2:18-19; see SPECIAL TOPIC: FALSE TEACHERS). Often our theological or denominational traditions answer this question without reference to specific Bible texts (except the proof-text method of quoting a verse out of context to supposedly prove one’s bias).
Apparent faith
Judas Iscariot, John 17:12
Simon Magnus, Acts 8:9-24
those spoken of in Matt. 7:13-23
those spoken of in the Parable of the Soils in Matthew 13; Mark 4; Luke 8
the “believing” Jews of John 8:31-59
Alexander and Hymenaeus, 1 Tim. 1:19-20
those of 1 Tim. 4:1; 6:21
Hymenaeus and Philetus, 2 Tim. 2:16-18
Demas, 2 Tim. 4:10
false teachers, 2 Peter 2:19-22; Jude 1:12-19
antichrists, 1 John 2:18-19
Fruitless faith
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
2 Peter 1:8-11
The unique situation of Hebrews, written to a synagogue of believing and unbelieving Jews (note esp. Heb. 5:11-6:8; 10:26-31; see Robert Glaze, No Easy Salvation and my exegetical notes online at www.freebiblecommentary.org

We rarely think about these texts because our systematic theology (Calvinism, Arminianism, etc.) dictates the mandated response.

Please do not pre-judge me because I bring up this subject. My concern is proper hermeneutical procedure. We must let the Bible speak to us and not try to mold it into a preset theology. This is often painful and shocking because much of our theology is denominational, cultural, or relational (parent, friend, pastor), not biblical (see Special Topic: What Does It Mean to “receive,” “believe,” “confess/profess,” “call upon”?). Some who are in the People of God turn out to not be in the People of God (e.g., Rom. 9:6).
I would just add that perseverance is as crucial a NT doctrine as is assurance.
SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSEVERANCE
SPECIAL TOPIC: ASSURANCE
SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRISTIAN ASSURANCE
For a good discussion of this issue from an Arminian perspective (of which I am a part), see
Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, pp. 348-365
Robert Shank
Life in the Son
Elect in the Son
I. Howard Marshall, Kept By the Power of God

…and you went on about “Thou shalt not kill” etc.

Miscommunication, perhaps? @PeterC

J.

12

Boy am I not worried about that!