The Shin and the Shin

Theology
1

If I come up to you each morning and kick you in the shin, do you have to forgive me each time, or can you wait till I stop kicking you?

2

I have to forgive you, but I don’t have to stay around and give you the opportunity to do it again.

2 Likes
3

Yup. Of course, you can say, “Stop kicking me.” Nowhere in the Bible does it say we have to be a doormat. But to answer your core question.

“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.” Matthew 18:21-22

Peter

1 Like
4

If you ask for forgiveness, you are admitting you did something wrong. If you keep doing it, You are either lying about thinking it is wrong or admitting you enjoy doing something wrong. I will avoid you. However, if you seek me out to kick me in the shin I will assume you are a brute beast that needs to be spoken to in the language of beasts and kick you back, This is known as deterrence.

2 Likes
5

I guess I’d first try to figure out what I’m doing that makes you want to kick me in the shin. It may be you have a good reason, and I should just take over the responsibility for you.

Your hypothetical situation reminded me of this story from Second Samuel:

Now when King David came to Bahurim, there was a man from the family of the house of Saul, whose name was Shimei the son of Gera, coming from there. He came out, cursing continuously as he came. And he threw stones at David and at all the servants of King David. And all the people and all the mighty men were on his right hand and on his left. Also Shimei said thus when he cursed: “Come out! Come out! You bloodthirsty man, you rogue! The LORD has brought upon you all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose place you have reigned; and the LORD has delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom your son. So now you are caught in your own evil, because you are a bloodthirsty man!”

Then Abishai the son of Zeruiah said to the king, “Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Please, let me go over and take off his head!”

But the king said, "What have I to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah? So let him curse, because the LORD has said to him, 'Curse David.’ Who then shall say, ‘Why have you done so?’ "

And David said to Abishai and all his servants, "See how my son who came from my own body seeks my life. How much more now may this Benjamite? Let him alone, and let him curse; for so the LORD has ordered him. It may be that the LORD will look on my affliction, and that the LORD will repay me with good for his cursing this day."
2 Samuel 16:5-12 (NKJV)

If you come up to me each morning and kick me in the shin, I may need to forgive you. But, it may be I have done something to you that made you think this was a proper response. It may be you actually have to forgive me.

KP

1 Like
6

Luke 17:“3,If your brother or sister[a] sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. **4 **Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.

The whole bible teaches that repentance Always proceeds forgiveness, so if you kick me in the shins and do not later say that you are sorry and will not do it again, then I do not have to forgive you!

The commands to forgive assume that there has been repentance.

1 Like
7

You can say, “Stop kicking me,” but that won’t necessarily help.

1 Like
8

Yes, you would be wise to avoid me, but what if I followed you?

9

There is no doubt I would be doing an evil thing if I kept kicking you in the shins. I was interested in what you reaction would be. I’m trying to make the point that, in my opinion, defending ourselves would take priority over forgiveness. If we murder someone, we will be locked away - we won’t be forgiven immediately and put back out on the street. Society needs to be protected from murderers (and other people that would cause us harm).

10

I would forgive you and then have you arrested for assault. lol

But we’re not really talking about someone kicking me in the shin. The real question is how often ae we supposed to forgive someone who continually needs forgiveness. Jesus said 70x7 and I don’t think He meant we keep track until we reach that number. His point is that we always forgive. Forgiving doesn’t mean forgetting and it also doesn’t mean reconciliation. That takes two people and the other person might decline. It’s for our own benefit that we forgive. Otherwise we walk around with that person squatting in our head.

1 Like
11

Christians should be forgiving. This isn’t a judicial forgiveness like amnesty. It doesn’t mean we should want to let criminals out of jail or cancel deserved executions. It doesn’t let terrorists have their way when they threaten us and build up their arsenals. Civil justice must be upheld.

Paul is dealing with the personal side of forgiveness. Believers are to learn to let insults remain just words. Let rude behavior condemn the rude person by itself. Don’t let it provoke rudeness in your heart in return.

While you let civil justice deal with those who commit crimes against you, don’t be eaten away with vengeance and hatred in your own heart. Such things will destroy you more than any crime against you or against your loved ones. Don’t give Satan the satisfaction of a double victory by letting bad behavior instigate a crime in you by your hatred in return.

Our forgiveness by Jesus Christ is the model for our forgiveness toward one another. He endured the suffering our sins deserve. This is how we should personally treat those who are antagonistic toward us. We should be strong enough to willingly put up with the pain of their cruel attitude without being drawn into reciprocal hatred or grudges.

This isn’t easy.
But there are some key elements here that can make it easier:

  1. Understand that forgiving personally does not mean ignoring the need for justice. The Bible says, “Vengeance is mine says the Lord.” Let him deal with the sin, and let those he appoints deal with earthly punishments. Never take civil justice into your own hands.

  2. Remember that you too deserve God’s wrath. Those who hurt you show how you would be if it wasn’t for God’s restraining grace toward you in Christ.

  3. Remember that you were changed by the forgiveness of Christ. He made you able to forgive when he died in your place taking on himself what you deserve. When you were forgiven by God you were rejoined to him spiritually. This enables you to do what fallen human nature can’t even imagine doing.

If you have trouble forgiving others in this personal sense, consider your relationship with Christ. Come before him in humble repentance, grateful for him paying the penalty you deserve. He suffered to relieve your suffering even though you have offended him by your sinful thoughts, words, and deeds. Ask him to change your heart to do what’s right toward God and others.

Pray that God will help you to care about the tragedy of that other person’s sins. Pray for the person who offends you, and for your ability to see the greater issues. This is how we need to live as a child of God, as a true Christian redeemed by grace. Ephesians 4:32 says, “Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.”

Preachin’ more to myself here…since the natural disposition is “self-preservation”

J.

1 Like
12

You probably didn’t do anything that gave me the right to kick you in the shin every day, I wouldn’t think.

1 Like
13

I, too, believe that you don’t have to forgive me till I repent.

However, haven’t we all committed many sins, and wouldn’t it be too much to ask us to say we’re sorry to everyone for every sin we’ve committed?

14

I believe we should forgive 70x7 (and more), but I think I can wait till the fellow stops kicking me in the shin. Until he does that, I have other things on my mind, don’t I?

15

Forgiveness isn’t about someone saying they’re sorry. It’s not about letting someone off the hook or telling them it’s ok what they did. Holding onto the bitterness and pain of unforgiveness is like swallowing poison and hoping the other person dies. We forgive for our own sake and not for their sake.

Forgiveness also means we have to deal with the consequences of their sin against us. That may not seem fair and leaves retaliation off the table. God said that vengeance is His and He will repay. We need to be satisfied with that. It doesn’t mean that we tolerate their sin either. If its possible to put an end to it, then we do so. If it means they go to jail, then they go to jail. Unlike God who chooses to forget our sin, we can’t forget. But what we don’t do is bring it up against them after we’ve forgiven. We don’t hold onto it.

It’s not easy but the Bible clearly says that’s what we’re to do. It’s an act of obedience with dire consequences if we don’t.

16

Well, @BobEstey, Something is making you do it, right? There is some motivation behind your action, isn’t there?

First taking the time to consider if I am the cause is how I first examine myself, how I “take the beam out of my own eye”, so to speak.

“Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us”

.

If it’s not me, or because of something I’ve done, but still I am the target of your rage, then your rage is either arbitrary “acting out” of some pain or trauma in your life, or it is purely irrational, wouldn’t you say?

If your rage is arbitrarily “acting out”, a violent outward expression of your own inward pain, doesn’t that make forgiveness more reasonable, doesn’t that give forgiveness a known object to pity. Don’t we want to forgive those who act out of pain or trauma? For instance, we forgive babies who wail to be held or fed, or toddlers who bite the doctor trying to help them, right? Our immediate forgiveness is an expression of compassion; a way we show sympathy for their personal pathology. God is compassionate. I can be too.

If your rage is irrational, in-other-words, you don’t have a rational reason to do it, then we forgive in the same manner Jesus forgave his murderers

“Father forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing”

The murderers action was irrational (they wanted to kill someone who did no wrong and committed no crime), but Jesus’s forgiveness was rational, he had a good reason to do it. He died for those who wanted Him to suffer for no reason. His reason was Love.

Lots of people who have been hurt will look for reasons that they aren’t required to forgive; they try to decide if forgiveness is warranted, or if the other person deserves it. This is human. Jesus-in-you looks for reasons to forgive because it is a blessing; it is Godly. Looking for reasons to forgive is an expression of The Holy Spirit living within a person; forgiveness is a way that The Holy Spirit of God expresses Himself to the world. It is a testimony of Godliness. It is a rational response to an irrational act.

If you come up to me each morning and kick me in the shin, can I not forgive you each time as a spiritual expression of God in me? No matter why you are doing it, has not God demonstrated to us a Godly and rational reason to forgive? Will not God bless me as one who acts in Godly ways; who acts as Jesus acts?

What do you think?

KP

17

@BobEstey

Proverbs 22:24–25 (KJV)
“Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go: Lest thou learn his ways, and get a snare to thy soul.”
This is an explicit command to avoid repeated harmful behavior, not merely endure it patiently.

Proverbs 4:14–15
“Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away.”
The verbs stack up intentionally: avoid, do not enter, turn away. Scripture could not be clearer that avoidance is sometimes obedience.

Matthew 18:15–17
“Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault… but if he will not hear… let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.”
Jesus commands escalating separation when sin persists without repentance. Continued proximity is not required.

Luke 17:3 (KJV)
“Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him.”
The imperative “take heed” places responsibility on the injured party to guard themselves, not merely absorb harm.

Romans 16:17
“Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.”
Avoidance is commanded, not optional, when someone persists in harmful behavior.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
“Withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly.”
The verb “withdraw” is a direct apostolic command aimed at ongoing misconduct.

2 Timothy 3:1–5
.“…men shall be lovers of their own selves… fierce… despisers of those that are good… from such turn away”
This is not forgiveness denial; it is obedience to a command to turn away from persistent destructive patterns.

Titus 3:10
“A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.”
Admonition is followed by rejection if there is no repentance. Scripture assumes boundaries.

Matthew 10:14
“And whosoever shall not receive you… shake off the dust of your feet.”
Jesus explicitly commands disengagement when rejection or hostility persists.

John 10:39
“Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand.”
Christ Himself avoided repeated harm without sinning or failing to forgive.

Acts 9:25
“They let him down by the wall in a basket.”
The apostles fled danger rather than spiritualizing abuse.

Proverbs 19:19
“A man of great wrath shall suffer punishment: for if thou deliver him, yet thou must do it again.”
Scripture warns that continual rescue without change perpetuates harm.

Taken together, Scripture establishes a clear pattern:
Forgiveness is commanded repeatedly.
Enduring unrepentant, ongoing harm is not.
Avoidance, withdrawal, rebuke, and separation are biblical imperatives when sin persists.

The Bible never teaches passive submission to repeated injury as a mark of holiness. It teaches wisdom, accountability, and ordered love. Anyone who says otherwise is confusing forgiveness with enablement, and Scripture refuses that confusion.

If a man kicks his wife in the stomach every day, is she required to forgive him every day?

People often fail to reckon with biblical paradoxes, which is precisely why systems of civil and judicial authority exist.

Martin Luther

From Temporal Authority: To What Extent It Should Be Obeyed (1523):

“A Christian must be patient and suffer wrong; yet he must also resist wrong, where resistance serves to prevent greater evil and injustice. To suffer injustice without protest when one can prevent it is to cooperate with evil.”

Luther’s point is explicit: inward forgiveness does not cancel outward resistance to harm. Allowing ongoing violence is not virtue.

From Luther’s Sermon on the Mount (on Matthew 5):

“Turning the other cheek does not mean that a man must suffer himself to be trampled underfoot or permit injustice to reign. It means that the heart must not seek revenge.”

Luther directly rejects the idea that Christ commands passive submission to repeated abuse.

John Calvin

From Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter 7, Section 14:

“The Lord commands us to forgive injuries, but He does not require us to surrender our life to the violence of the wicked. We may lawfully seek protection, provided our hearts are free from hatred and desire for revenge.”

That sentence alone dismantles the claim that forgiveness equals remaining in harm.

From Institutes, Book IV, Chapter 20, Section 10 (on civil government):

“If we were forbidden to call upon the help of the magistrate, then God would have established government in vain. To restrain the violent is not contrary to Christ’s command, but in harmony with it.”

Calvin explicitly ties this issue to Romans 13 and denies that Christian forgiveness abolishes justice.

William Perkins (Puritan)

From A Discourse of Conscience:

“Forgiveness removeth malice, but it doth not bind a man to put himself into danger again. Where there is no repentance, there can be no reconciliation.”

Perkins is precise: forgiveness is internal, reconciliation is conditional.

Richard Baxter (Puritan)

From A Christian Directory, Part II, Christian Economics, on family relations:

“If a husband be violent and endanger the life or health of his wife, she may depart for her safety; for God hath not commanded her to remain where she is daily injured.”

Baxter could not be clearer. He treats daily harm as disqualifying the obligation to remain.

In the same work, Baxter adds:

“It is a sinful mistake to think that patience requireth men to encourage sin by suffering it when it is in their power to avoid it.”

This sentence alone answers your shin-kicking analogy completely.

John Owen

From On the Mortification of Sin (applied principle):

So when someone asks, “Must I forgive someone who kicks me every day?” the Reformed answer is:

Yes, you must forgive.
No, you must not remain.
And anyone who says otherwise has not read Luther, Calvin, or the Puritans carefully, if at all.

J.

18

@Johann your reply hit my nail on the head today. I’m dealing with my dad who has been abusive, manipulative, deceitful, a cheat, selfish, and basically a jerk my whole life. Now, he’s old and ill and feels regret for a lifetime of being himself, and has come to me, asking to live with me. His health is going down the drain (smoking 2 packs of cigarettes a day explains a lot) and he’s afraid of being alone. As soon as he asked to live with me I felt the HS convict me. That I have to say yes, regardless of my heart, and obey. He’s my dad. Regardless of the man he’s been all my life, I have to say yes, and convince my husband (a non-believer) to say yes as well. No. This is not easy. It’s HARD. But, forgiving him has lifted a huge weight off me. My heart feels lighter. I’m still working through a mountain of resentment, but with the Lord’s help that mountain isn’t as formidable as it used to be. Praise Him!

1 Like
19

We are reqired to apologise to those people we have sinned against and to make restitution.

We are not required to apologise or repent to people to whom we haven’t sinned against, only to repent to God

1 Like
20

Amen. Praise His holy Name. I also grew up with an abusive father and endured regular physical beatings. That did not mean I was required to remain in his proximity forever as some supposed “proof” that God was at work in me. I forgave him, and I still love him, but forgiveness did not require continual exposure to harm.

As you rightly say, it’s not easy, very difficult and hard.

Love your testimony sorella and your contributions.

Shalom to you and familia, including your dad.

Johann.

2 Likes