This has become a meme at my house. If I ever have a random desire to arouse my wife’s ire in any given instant, I say, “you’re just trying to elevate yourself”.
Works every time.
What do we make of it when someone claims to be “top ten best looking guy in all of human history”? Or maybe, “I just bench pressed the universe, and you struggle with a 2 pound dumbbell!” or, “I’m the greatest of all Jesus’ apostles” (Luke 9:46), or even “I refused to build on another man’s work”, (Romans 15:20)?
Humans do seem to be on a consistent campaign to elevate themselves. Everywhere you look - it’s obvious. Everyone struggling to be the GOAT, or at least find an edge of distinction that they believe somehow elevates them.
Wouldn’t it have been better if God had made us more naturally humble?
I agree with you here, Pater. Being humble is indeed a fruit of the Spirit, for the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control (Galatians 5:22 and 23). We are commanded to clothe ourselves with humility toward one another, for God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble (1 Peter 5:5), and to put on, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness and patience (Colossians 3:12).
And yet we are commanded to speak the truth to a lost and dying world, for Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life” (John 14:6). Paul declared, “I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified” (1 Corinthians 2:2), and “we preach Christ crucified” (1 Corinthians 1:23), for Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, and he was buried, and he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3 and 4). I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16). We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15), to go therefore and make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19), and to preach the word, being ready in season and out of season (2 Timothy 4:2).
Bringing the rod is a definite, for “the rod and reproof give wisdom” (Proverbs 29:15), for “the Lord disciplines the one he loves” (Hebrews 12:6), and those whom he loves he reproves and disciplines (Revelation 3:19), for all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).
And yet I still feel somewhat perplexed by a strong aversion to anything Reformed and to church history.
So I will trust in the Lord with all my heart and not lean on my own understanding (Proverbs 3:5 and 6), and if any of us lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives generously to all without reproach (James 1:5). I will be like the noble Bereans, who received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so (Acts 17:11), and I will test everything and hold fast to what is good (1 Thessalonians 5:21).
Adam ruined that. Now we are a proud arrogant bunch of wretches whose natural inclination is toward sin, destruction, and the glory of ourselves.
That’s why, as we are being sanctified, and God works to renew us in the image of Christ, we are daily to put to death the passions and lusts of the flesh, walk in repentance, and seek the crucified life of discipleship under Christ our Lord and King.
This is getting to the question. If God HAD made us naturally more humble, how could it be possible that Adam ruined all of that?
And, if Adam in his entire created being was “very good”, as the scripture claims, and it’s also true that as Jesus said and Paul said, striving for greatness is a good thing, HOW is it a good thing?
From the historic Western theological tradition: Original Sin. Specifically, each and every one of us inherits and carries Concupiscence, the broken, twisted, and perverse desire that we have by virtue of being Adam’s fallen descendants. This is sometimes described as inherited guilt. But inherited guilt does not mean we are held culpable for Adam’s personal sin; it means we all inherit the same broken disposition, the same fallen humanity which Adam had after he sinned. I am sinful, because Adam sinned.
Now, the Eastern theological tradition does not have Original Sin as such. But Ancestral Sin: Ancestral Sin means that because Adam sinned, it created a net effect on the whole of creation. We now are born into a fallen world in which the passions of the flesh are right there–it’s not that we are born innately sinful in the same way that Original Sin says. But that we are born with the unavoidable consequences of sin and death in the world, and so we enter a sinful world and, the result is, I am sinful.
In either case. The reason I am not naturally humble is because I’m a complete and total wretch and sinner before God. I have to learn humility, be trained in humility–I have to have my flesh mortified and crucified and put to death, because it wants to exert itself, rise above everything else, and try and stand at the top of the mountain shouting praises about how awesome I am.
Thanks @Johann - my question is a little different. I wasn’t asking if humility is a good thing. I was asking why wouldn’t it have been better for God to create us with more humility? Like, why aren’t we more prone to humility rather than striving for elevation?
I think from my observations that striving for preeminence and the demand for respect is behind a huge percentage of conflicts, both personal and global. We bite and brag, and betray and belittle and begrudge, all for the sake of preserving our fragile egos.
Seems to be a universal property of being human. Why would God make us like that?
Yes but what I’m saying is that Adam was exactly what God created before he sinned.
If Adam had any propensity to rebel, God created that propensity in him. And, as I said, Jesus did not rebuke the disciples for their desire to be recognized as the greatest among them. But rather He told them how to achieve the greatness that they craved.
Even on this forum, we see folks jostling to be heard, respected, and even honored. One of our members claimed he “bench pressed the universe”, and called our Pastor a malicious demon, and belittled others, just because this member wrongly felt he was being “told he was wrong”.
He was pretty wrong to do that.
It seems to me that God could have made us naturally disposed to deny ourselves. There must be a reason that He didn’t. Right?
Jesus radically turned “greatness” on its head. By telling His disciples that greatness in the kingdom is actually least-ness. That’s a fundamental rejection of man’s desire to elevate himself. It may not have been a severe rebuke, but it was a rebuttal–a rejection of the way His disciples were thinking, and telling them to completely up-end everything they think it means to be great in God’s eyes. Because in God’s eyes, the person who wants to “bench press the universe” (that’s hilariously silly) is simply not someone who was paying attention to anything they were taught in Sunday School.
Yes, Jesus does point out what greatness actually is. It’s smallness. It’s being a slave. It’s being poor. It’s being weak. It’s being tiny, unimportant, and without any glory whatsoever.
As I said, God did make us naturally disposed to deny ourselves. Adam messed that up. Now our disposition is to elevate ourselves, to glorify ourselves, to boast of ourselves.
The human desire to want to stand at the top is the flesh at work. There is no redeeming that. That’s why Jesus tells His apostles to turn everything they think is true on their head. Change what you think greatness means, because greatness before God will never be man trying to get to the top.
Careful. OK, at least duck. But yes, "you’re just trying to elevate yourself”.is the original Sin, the Sin that caused the fall. The Sin that the devil tempted Jesus with, and still works today. Here is the proof. Devil?
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:12-14
The Fall?
“But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.” Genesis 3:4-6
The temptation of Christ?
"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Matthew 4:8-9
Look around today. The Idol of Self is all over the place. Especially on social media, where the goal is to have millions of “followers” and be an “internet god” I mean “influencer.” making lots of money. Think about it.
I’m sorry, I totally missed your questions. I will take a shot. The question assumes that if Adam were created naturally humble, he would have lacked the pride required to fall. However, classical Christian theology (from Augustine to Thomas Aquinas and C.S. Lewis) addresses this through three key distinctions.
The state of innocence is not a state of non posse peccare (unable to sin), but rather a state of posse non peccare (able not to sin). His nature was “very good” in the sense of being harmonious, undamaged, and oriented toward God, but he was inherently mutable (capable of change) because he was a created being, not God.
Humility in a free moral agent is a relational posture of trust, not an automatic instinct like breathing. For humility to be genuine, the freedom to choose autonomy over dependency must exist. Free Will.
Temptation comes from without, not within. Because Adam did not have an innate “fallen” inclination to sin, the suggestion to abandon humility had to come from an outside source (the serpent). The serpent’s core appeal in Genesis 3:5 was not simply “be arrogant,” but “you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Adam’s fall was not an explosion of overt hatred or malice; it was a subtle shift in trust. Exchanging reliance on God’s definition of good for a desire to determine good self-referentially. The moment Adam decided his own judgment was superior to God’s command, humility was surrendered.
If striving for greatness is good, HOW is it a good thing? Both Jesus and Paul address ambition, but they completely redefine what “greatness” actually is. In Christian ethics, the desire for greatness is not bad in itself. It is a God-given drive that becomes corrupt only when misplaced.
When the disciples argued over who was the greatest, Jesus did not condemn their desire for greatness; he inverted its definition.
“It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,” Matthew 20:26.
Human beings were created to reflect God’s glory and exercise stewardship over creation. Wanting to fulfill that purpose to the absolute fullest, maximizing one’s gifts, wisdom, and impact, is inherently good. Striving for greatness becomes evil only when “greatness” is defined as domination, self-exaltation, or independence from God. True humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. This frees a person to strive for maximum impact without needing to elevate themselves at the expense of others. Does this make sense?
Yes, and I believe it’s important to remember that the bolded section:
was not a lie. In fact, it’s perfectly necessary, and the whole reason God created this universe - a very temporary stepping stone to heaven eternal. For whom?
For all who would freely choose to believe.
The only lie that Satan told was they “would not surely die”, and that God doesn’t want them to be like Him. They failed to believe God at the moment when the challenge was immediate.
Nobody wants to die. They didn’t believe they would.
“When she SAW” etc, all of the true things about the fruit, (seeing is believing), and she believed that she would be elevated in gaining wisdom by eating, she and Adam both decided to not believe God about the dying part. So they ate.
Humbling ourselves can be a tricky thing. If we truly believe that we are nothing but a worthless speck of dung, with no innate value, and no incentive to ever seek to improve, we might just decide that we are worthlessly wasting the air that we breathe. Why take the next breath, if that be true?
I don’t think that’s a good answer.
I think that probably everyone reading might assume that I think I know the whole answer. Not true - we are sort of puzzling it out as we go. But if I truly did know the whole answer, would it be more important for me to stand firm on God’s true revelation and believe Him, or more important to humble myself, supposing that I am worthless and know nothing?
I don’t see any Biblical evidence of this, that God made us naturally disposed to deny ourselves. And this seems to be incoherent. Because God didn’t make “us” at the beginning; He made Adam. It seems to me that if Adam had been naturally disposed to deny himself, then he would have denied himself, instead of messing it up.
And I would modify this a little bit, to say that greatness is to be found in servanthood, something that Jesus demonstrated. When He was washing the feet of His disciples, He wasn’t surrendering His authority or leadership - He was exercising it in demonstration of God’s will.
If all people loved God and loved each other, and gave of themselves in service to each other - sin, war, starvation: all would disappear overnight. If all people sought the true greatness that comes from believing and obeying, the world would be turned upside down, and God would get the glory.
Friends:
I hope my metaphor is helpful, and not distracting.
When we find ourselves on a ship that is listing heavily either port or starboard, my personal reaction to the dilemma is not like some, who immediately focus on who (or what) is causing the problem, wanting to correct the imbalance by casting the problem into the sea. Neither is my personal reaction to boisterously insist the cargo has shifted and must immediately be rearranged. My personal response is to move my own weight to the high side of the deck and pray for calmer winds. My way is not everyone’s way, and I appreciate those who have different approaches. All hands are needed; pirates and sea-beasts abound.
Here’s my simple weight.
While most people use the words “pride” and “humility” as opposites, I don’t. The original meanings of those two words have little to do with each other (IMHO). Even so, I understand the user’s intent (I hope). The ship remains listing as long as the crew fails to understand what each other are saying. I’d really like to address the vocabulary, but I won’t this time. Instead, I want to remind us of a germane admonition, given by the Apostle Paul to the Roman Church; one that addresses “self-elevation” as the OP has brought to our minds.
“For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.” (Romans 12:3)
The phrase “more highly than he ought” is key, don’t you think?
Our ship’s cargo shifted dramatically when people began to speak of one who thought well of himself as “prideful” which equates to “sinful”, and one who thought poorly of themself was properly “humble” because that equates to “godly”. According to the Apostle, the issue in question arises because a man thinks “Inaccurately” about himself, or as the Apostle says in another place, one who “boasts beyond measure” (2Co. 1-:13). The inaccurate thinking arose in the garden of Eden when man thought he could become “like God” by eating a certain fruit. Accurately speaking, Adam (AKA Dusty) will never be “like God. Adam was already at full glory potential being made in God’s image, and being invited to fellowship with his creator. From the point of Dusty’s miscalculation on, mankind has always inaccurately thought of himself as God’s peer, (or sometimes even as God’s master); from that point on, mankind has falsely “elevated himself” beyond what is measured out for him. According to the Apostle, the remedy for arrogance (thinking of himself more highly than he ought) is to think “Soberly” (Gk: sōphronéō), literally a mind that is safely reigned into reality.
Consider:
“For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. For if we are beside ourselves (Gk: exístēmi), it is for God; or if we are of sound mind (Gk: sōphronéō), it is for you.” (2 Corinthians 5:12-13)
The OP’s point here is well taken, and I understand his question is rhetorical.
To me, our ship is best righted, and the cargo well-trimmed when we admit to ourselves and to others that we are what we are, simple creatures (created beings), temporarily comprised of earthly dust (Ps 103:14) yet graciously instilled with eternal Glory. As such, we have one job! We have become born-from-above image bearers, and given the glorious mission of being living sacrifices, unassailable testimonies to Life, and literal lights to the world. How could we be more elevated than that?
Ahoy!
(Psalm 113:4-8)
The LORD is high above all nations, His glory above the heavens.
Who is like the LORD our God, Who dwells on high,
Who humbles Himself to behold The things that are in the heavens and in the earth?
He raises the poor out of the dust, And lifts the needy out of the ash heap,
That He may seat him with princes-- With the princes of His people.
Let those who serve, serve fully, proudly, and accurately in the role they were given.
“For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.” (Romans 12:4-8)
Well, I suppose I could be the best looking of all. Somebody has to be it.
1 John 3 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.**2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.3 **All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Thanks @KPuff you never fail to remember what great love God has shown.
You mentioned our office of “image bearing”, and this passage says we shall SEE Him (seeing is believing), which will serve to make us like Him. What a marvelous thought.
We know that God is rightfully concerned that we should appreciate His fulsome greatness. And He created us in His own image, to be His daughters and sons. Like the children of a truly great man or woman who should aspire to be like their Dad and Mom.
And feel good about it. Feel the blessed reward and satisfaction of a job well done.
I’m wondering if our universal quest for elevation is a function of our being created in God’s image. And that when we choose to believe His every word (by faith, NOT by sight, as my wife reminds me) our faith is counted as righteousness. An elevating experience. An elevation that God is pleased to bestow, and pleased for us to embrace.
I hear you. I am right-there-with-you preaching that when one who chooses to believe God, that faith is counted as righteousness. I won’t pontificate on whose righteousness it is. That discussion is on a different thread.
As far as the first part of the above quote: I am a simple thinker. I think the “universal quest for elevation”, as you have observed, is the natural, and expected posture of one who has fallen. Only one who has not fallen feels no need for elevation. A most uncomfortable feeling ensues when one realizes “I’ve fallen, and I can’t get up”. Ironically, “Life Alert” is the remedy for this condition both physical and spiritual!
Yeah, but Jesus Christ was “elevated on the cross”. Remember how he said that he would be lifted up, and draw all men unto himself? It’s okay to be elevated, Joseph was the same. He had this dream that everyone else in his family would bow down to him, with their stars and wheat sheafs. Now did that happen? Sorta…but he’d been sold as a slave by then, and so had Christ when he was “lifted up”.
One of the most mind blowing accounts in the scripture to me is the transfiguration, where Jesus takes Peter, James, and John up on a mountain to watch Him have a conversation with Moses and Elijah. Luke mentions the subject of their conversation - the coming fulfillment of all the law, and all the prophets. Fused together in the maximally great expression of His Love, on the cross.
The God of the universe invited them there, to have a meeting, and discuss His plans.
I enjoy watching the shows where people, just average people, stand on a stage and sing for the judges, hoping to be elevated. I remember one where Simon is asking the girl some questions, and her response is - “I can’t believe you said my name.” Then she proceeded to blow them all away with her singing. Wonderful, beautiful singing. When she finished, and it was time to judge, she looked petrified. No bravado, no strutting, no boasting.
When I actually honestly contemplate going to heaven, I can see myself jostling for the very last back pew. Maybe even hiding under it. I know He’s going to say my name, and I know I don’t deserve that. But there is nothing that I want more than that. To hear Him call my name, and welcome me to the conversation.
That’s an elevation that is too wonderful for words.
Revelation 2:17 (NKJV)
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches (that’s us!.. sigh)
To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it."
On that day, if you tell me yours, I’ll tell you mine.
Oh Btw, Simon Cowel is not God, he just plays one in TV, (and he may be starting to believe it.)