What if I were to tell you Jesus did not die on a cross

you may like to think so, but you have made an assumption assuming it was an act that was only done one way . granted both ways end up with the person dead . one way takes hours the other can take days . Jesus and the other two had to be dead that very day before sun down .

many dont know that Hitlers cronies would hang people by their hands hung from what ever was available to use . death come quicker than to may expect IF the feet do not touch the floor/ground .it was also discovered that extra weight hung to the person cut the time it took for the person to die .

the romans would nail the feet ,which extended the amount of time it took to kill . by nailing the feet the person could push themselves up just enough to exhale the air in the lungs. if the person was not dead in a prescribed amount out of time then the legs would be broken . the person could no longer push them selves up they could not breathe . much like suffocation.

yes ,very much so . and you ?

You’re defeating your own argument. If they were hung on a pole, so that they would be dead within a few hours (which is your only “evidence”) why would it be necessary to break their legs? Wouldn’t that be evidence for a cross? They were surprised that Jesus was already dead, remember?

And listen, locust, why would you expect everyone to hate you? Maybe because you believe a lot of things about God and the Bible that were made up by people for some other purpose? And you already know we’re not receptive to false doctrines that were made up by people for some other purpose?

Why would you want us to buy into any of your false doctrines? You need to ask yourself that, locust.

Ok. For me it doesn’t matter because what Jesus did and accomplished is the same regardless of whether it was a pole or cross. I still think it was a cross. I trust that the conversation is just for interest and is conversation for its own sake, which is interesting to a point. I’ve listened and I’ve responded and found the subject of interest, but not all that important to my faith. Thank you for bringing this up and God’s blessing on you in this new year.

it has something to do with the diaphragm . when a human hangs by the hands it makes it hard for the diaphragm to expel the air , air can be taken in but difficult to expel/exhale the air in the lungs . the only reason Jesus and the other two lived as long as they did was because they could push themselves up .by Breaking the legs they could no longer push up with the legs to breathe .

consider to that Jesus was beaten much more than the other two and likely deprived of sleep longer than the other two . when Jesus was struck he did not cry out . that out cry would be the thing the one doing the whipping wanted to hear . when he did not get it he tried even harder to get it .

in deed you will , odd thing is you picture a standing cross but no body is hanging on it . I already pointed out the easiest way to remove the body is to lift it all up and lay it down . Laid down to use over and over again .

look at you , you already don’t like the things I am telling you . I have told you things that sting a sting like that from a scorpion. it does not kill you but it does hurt. (Rev.9:7-10)

please walk the narrow road that takes you to life ever lasting life. To then inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5)

I don’t like the things you are saying because you are lying. Plainly.

You say it wasn’t a cross, but rather a pole with a crosspiece. Umm that’s already a cross.

You say the reason for the pole is so that they die quickly, so that the soldiers don’t need to break their legs. But they did have to break their legs, right? You’re steady going about disproving your lies.

So the upshot is that your entire post is lies made up out of your head. And then you name yourself “locust”, because you fancy yourself some sort of a tool of judgement. God does often use pagans, heathens, and demons as tools of judgement. Which one are you? And I don’t think this is one of those occasions where God is using a tool. You seem to be doing this on your own, or maybe with different assistance.

I am on the narrow path, but I don’t see you here. Friend, please reconsider your beliefs, and please stop lying to the rest of us.

Yes, you did point that out and I read it. I’ve also thanked you for starting this conversation which was interesting. To be honest, I don’t quite understand you. It appears to me that you are either looking for conversation no matter what or/and I must agree with you. It’s ok if we don’t agree. The subject is not a deal breaker in Christianity. Perhaps we’ll meet again on another thread. Bye for now and God’s grace in your life.

Is it a crucifix if the crossbar is near the bottom? what if the cross bar was a 3’’ and the pole was 6’’ ? every church i have ever studied uses heavy timber to make a cross . why when a 4X4 would easily carry the load of the weight of a man. lighter would also be easier to stand and take down ? hummm

Yup. You have indeed. Any proof? I can see some, no, no, I can’t, I really do not see your point. One, why are you so obsessed with disproving the Cross, and two, why is it so important to you to have others believe what is not even Biblical?

Peter

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no, the legs would be broken if the person lived longer then the Romans wanted them to live.

Honestly we don’t know how much the Jews were in kahoots with the Romans to this issue of crucifixion

what is a cross or for that matter a pole ,but an implement of torture .
John 4:24 .. ….worship with spirit .’’ to also be free of worshiping Idols. perhaps you have seen some one with a cross as on a necklace or a tattoo. one would think in means they are christian but their actions prove far from it . perhaps you don’t like the line that’s drawn ,i did not draw the line God did.

what reason could I possibly have to lie . I have nothing to gain . you however have much to gain ,even eternal life.

consider

Thou shalt not have any other gods before God.

  • Thou shalt not make yourself an idol. what then is a idol ? but an object of veneration ! no object in all of Christendom is held higher in veneration than the cross.

  • number two, likely the flag of which ever country you live it . patriotism often conflicts with religion . so much so that one day in the not so distant future there will be a movement to remove religion .

Ah, OK. Yes, if you are referring to the Cross being seen as an idol. Absolutely. Just because one has a cross on their neck does not make them a Christian. We agree. That statue of Mary? That statue of Jesus Himself? The Cross? None of these things has any life in them. Astrology? Horoscopes and such?

“And lest thou lift thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.”

Today, we would need to add the Idol of self also. Got to be the new “Influencer”, want to have a million followers. Sound familuar? Just like there really was Jesus, Mary, and the Cross, it does not mean we should worship their images.

If you are talking about some other line? I have no idea.

Peter

From 2 Cor 11:

“But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.”

I hope we at Crosswalk won’t be guilty of this same failure. A troll can ruin a forum. Literally shut it down. And not because they are right in any way or even the slightest bit convincing. But mostly because they are relentlessly distracting. And people just get tired of it. I know the credo - “don’t feed the trolls”. And I’m not unhappy to follow that credo. It’s a relief to just ignore them. But I also think it’s important to be plain-spoken about what someone is actually doing.

This post starts with an intended rhetorical question, as if the answer is self-evidently “no good reason to lie”. First off locust, I’m guessing you have a time card to fill. That’s one reason. You have to fill your time card in the hope that you’ll get to keep living. You are not born again, so you have no confidence or assurance of fellowship with God. Jesus is not God to you, or a savior to you, but rather an “agent” of God, as you said on another thread, and the first Angel.

An idol is not an object of veneration. An idol is an object of worship. We don’t worship the cross. We worship the One who died on it to redeem us. So that’s another lie. Patriotism conflicts with religion? Only when your religion rejects all government, like yours does, although the Bible repeatedly condones government as necessary and good.

Sadly, at this point, it seems that you are unable to discern the truth or say much of anything that is true. You advocate for a different gospel, a different Jesus, and a different God altogether.

I wouldn’t want it to be true that we “put up with it easily enough”. My hope is that you’ll be converted to Christian beliefs. All the angels and everyone here would rejoice and praise God if that happened. Or if not, that you’ll move on.

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@Pater15
Your observations are keen, obviously honed in the fires of experience. I do appreciate the poignant reminder: the sign along our path that says “Don’t Feed the Trolls”. Especially those trolls that seem to live for the fight.
We simply do not have time or inclination to become embroiled in foolishness. Thanks for the reminder, and thanx your faithfulness.
KP

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Consider Acts 5:37-39 **37 **After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. **38 **Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”

I would then wonder are you honoring God the way he likes or is it the way you like ? ? that is in fact a tough question to hear .many believe it does not matter ,fact is it does matter .

The Romans used a variety of instruments. The crux simplex or “simple cross”, the upright pole was the simplest of these. The crux compacta was any form of more complex cross, such as the crux commissa, sometimes known as a “Tau” cross because of its resemblance to the Greek letter Tau (‘T’); the related crox immissa or t-shaped cross is the one most of us are familiar with. The Romans also used an X-shaped cross known as a cross decussata–most famous as being the instrument used to crucify St. Andrew the Apostle according to ancient Christian tradition.

Let’s be clear: Regardless of shape, regardless of whether a simplex or a compacta, it’s still a cross. These are all forms of the Roman crux.

No, it’s highly unlikely that the instrument used on which Jesus died was a crux simplex. The Gospels are clear that Jesus carried His cross to the place of execution. The Romans were known for a lot of things, but one thing they were known for was their efficiency. Golgatha was a spot intentionally used and reused for public execution, the simple cross or pole would be a permanent fixture. Jesus carrying His cross indicates that He carried the cross-beam to the place of execution. Jesus, on the cross-beam, would then be hoisted up and affixed to the upright pole.

Crucifixion usually did take several days to kill a person. Obviously a lot of factors would play into this. In the Gospel of John we read that there was a desire to not have bodies still hanging on the crosses during the Sabbath, and so they started breaking the legs of the condemned to expedite their death (broken legs = can’t push up to catch a breath)–but Jesus was already dead, confirmed by the piercing of His abdomen with a spear. Jesus died quickly, and that was unusual. The others being crucified (we have no idea how many were crucified that day, we are only told of the two next to Jesus, there could have been more we don’t know) and they had their legs broken so they would die before the evening.

The breaking of the legs was to speed up the dying. But it was common to let the crucified suffer for days.

There’s really no reason to think that Jesus was crucified on a crux simplex–either a crux commissa or crux immissa fits the details of the Gospels best.

The crux commissa was incredibly common. Ancient writers when talking about the stauros (Greek: “cross”) they compared it to the Greek letter Tau. There’s even an ancient satirical play in which the letters of the alphabet condemn the letter Tau for being in the form of a stauros, an instrument of fear, death, and horror. When Pagans mocked Christians, they depicted Jesus as a donkey-faced man hung on a Tau-shaped cross. When early Christians talk about the cross, they mention the Tau-shape of the cross.

At the end of the day the shape of Jesus’ cross doesn’t affect our theology. We preach Christ crucified, foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews. And God took what was foolish to demonstrate His wisdom, taking what was weak and shameful to display His power. And so we boast in nothing save God’s mercy and the cross of Jesus Christ by which He loved me, a sinner.

But for the sake of accuracy: No, a crux simplex is very unlikely to have been what Jesus was crucified on. It is more likely that Jesus was crucified, as said already, with a cross-beam.

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I am aware of no Christian that worships the cross. This is a baseless accusation.

Do I honor, venerate, and love the Cross? You better believe I do. I am not ashamed of the Cross. I will bear the Cross, confess the Cross, I would die for the Cross. Because the Cross is where my God suffered, bled, and died for me and saved me. I will boast of the Cross. I will cherish the Cross. I will rejoice in the ugly scandalous beauty of the Cross. Not in the wisdom of the wise or the strength of the strong: I will boast of the weakness of God who turns philosophers into fools and tears down the tyranny of tyrants. He exalts the lowly, and tears down the mighty.

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