Who Hardened Pharaoh’s Heart?

Thank you sir, and that is what I do (not as well as you) and it’s valuable to show that scripture is non-contradictory. That’s giving a defense of the Bible.

The most effective proactive arguments with atheists (that do bear fruit, praise His name), is to nullify their logical and scientific objections. They already don’t believe the Bible, at all. SO quoting verses or exegetical proofs are meaningless to them. I’m not saying, however, that the convicting work of the Spirit is not active when the gospel is shared.

Proving that evolution is not possible, for example, using all perfectly true scientific evidence, leaves them without a theory of existence foundation, other than their own faith in their atheism. It clears the field of the clutter that they’ve decided to believe, and narrows their objection choices. The truth is that they don’t want ANYONE directing their own moral choices. Their own belief choices. Their own choice to decide what is good and what is evil for themselves. That’s a seed that grows into just massive abominations, which we see all around us.

Your brother

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@Pater15

It is something of a personal discipline for me to listen to online debates, particularly those involving Tovia Singer and Michael Brown, and to spend time reading through Singer’s Outreach for Judaism material, then returning to the Scriptures themselves to examine whether the claims being made actually hold up. I make a point of tracing the sources they appeal to and testing them directly in the text.

What I have noticed is that many of the arguments used by Jewish polemicists, and likewise many Christian responses, rarely engage the biblical text at the level of morphology and syntax, which is precisely where the real issues often lie. Studying Scripture this way exposes assumptions that otherwise go unnoticed and forces the discussion back onto the text itself rather than rhetoric.

You have a particular passion for engaging atheists, while mine is focused more on Jewish and Muslim objections, but in both cases the task is the same, to let the grammar, structure, and context of Scripture do the heavy lifting rather than inherited talking points.
https://outreachjudaism.org/#:~:text=Helping%20Jews%20in%20the%20church%20discover%20the%20truth%20and%20beauty%20of%20Judaism.

I say again, brother, you are doing a sterling work for Christ Jesus, our great God and Savior.

Stay strong in Messiah.

J.

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Hello @all First, Happy New Year. So let me be clear where I stand on this topic now. I have been fully convinced by @Johann , @KPuff , @Pater15 that it is the fact of God’s omnipotence that He chooses individuals to carry out what He chooses to have completed.

Of course, we all have free will; we can say yes or no, yet God already knows the answer. I do agree that God did not create evil, nor does He operate in it.

“Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God,’ for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.” James 1:13

Since evil is not a created thing, but rather an absence of good and or God, like darkness is the absence of light. God, being wholly good, creates only good; evil arises from free creatures choosing to turn away from God and His goodness, perverting what God made, rather than God creating evil directly.

Thank you all for a rather interesting and educational debate, or conversation, however you chose to see it. Once again, Happy New Year to all.

Peter

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Thanx @PeterC for this testimony.

I think we are all dancing around some commonly held understandings that are stated in The Word of Truth, yet are very difficult for 3-dimentional creatures like ourselves, trapped in time and space, to properly and comprehensively comprehend. We know God is omnipotent and omnicient, and we know he is unhindered by time and space. We also recognize that he alone is “pure cause”, that is He is not affected by anything. We are subject to causes and their effects, but God is subject to nothing. We sometimes speak of God “reacting” and “responding”, and “waiting”, as if something “caused it”, as if God is under the same material constraints and contract as we are, but He isn’t. We must speak of ourselves as “reacting” and “responding”, and “waiting” bacause someting caused it, because we can do no other.

Reminder:

The Mighty One, God the LORD, Has spoken and called the earth From the rising of the sun to its going down.
Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God will shine forth.
Our God shall come, and shall not keep silent; A fire shall devour before Him, And it shall be very tempestuous all around Him.
He shall call to the heavens from above, And to the earth, that He may judge His people:
“Gather My saints together to Me, Those who have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice.”
Let the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself is Judge. Selah

"Hear, O My people, and I will speak, O Israel, and I will testify against you; I am God, your God!
I will not rebuke you for your sacrifices Or your burnt offerings, Which are continually before Me.
I will not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your folds.
For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills.
I know all the birds of the mountains, And the wild beasts of the field are Mine.
“If I were hungry, I would not tell you; For the world is Mine, and all its fullness.
Will I eat the flesh of bulls, Or drink the blood of goats?
Offer to God thanksgiving, And pay your vows to the Most High.
Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me.”
But to the wicked God says: "What right have you to declare My statutes, Or take My covenant in your mouth,
Seeing you hate instruction And cast My words behind you?
When you saw a thief, you consented with him, And have been a partaker with adulterers.
You give your mouth to evil, And your tongue frames deceit.
You sit and speak against your brother; You slander your own mother’s son.
These things you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you; But I will rebuke you, And set them in order before your eyes.
“Now consider this, you who forget God, Lest I tear you in pieces, And there be none to deliver:
Whoever offers praise glorifies Me; And to him who orders his conduct aright I will show the salvation of God.”
(Psalm 50:1-23 )

KP

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This from the OJB.

Psa 50:1

Mizmor of Asaph

El Elohim, even Hashem, hath spoken, and called Eretz from the mizrach shemesh (rising of sun) unto the going down thereof.
Psa 50:2 Out of Tziyon, the perfection of yofi, Elohim shineth forth.
Psa 50:3 Eloheinu shall come, and shall not keep silent; an eish shall devour before Him, and it shall be tempestuous me’od round about Him.
Psa 50:4 He shall summon Shomayim from above, and ha’aretz, that He may judge His people.
Psa 50:5 Gather My chasidim together unto Me; those that have cut a Brit (covenant) with Me by zevach (blood sacrifice, T.N. cf Gn 4:5 on the true Jewish religion).
Psa 50:6 And Shomayim shall declare His tzedek; for Elohim Shofet hu. Selah.
Psa 50:7 Hear, O My people, and I will speak; O Yisroel, and I will testify against thee; I am Elohim, even Eloheicha.
Psa 50:8 I will not reprove thee for thy zevakhim. And thy olot are before Me tamid.
Psa 50:9 I will accept no par (bull) from thy bais, nor he-goats out of thy folds.
Psa 50:10 For every beast of the ya’ar (forest) is Mine, and the behemot upon a thousand hills.
Psa 50:11 I know kol oph (every bird) of the harim; and the animals of the wild are Mine.
Psa 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee; for the tevel is Mine, and the fulness thereof.
Psa 50:13 Will I eat the basar of bulls, or drink the dahm of goats?
Psa 50:14 Sacrifice unto Elohim todah; and pay thy nedarim (vows, pledges) unto Elyon;
Psa 50:15 And call upon Me in the Yom Tzarah; I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify Me.
Psa 50:16 But unto the rasha, Elohim saith, What right hast thou to declare My chukkot, or that thou shouldest take My Brit in thy mouth?
Psa 50:17 Seeing thou hatest musar (correction), and casteth My devarim behind thee.
Psa 50:18 When thou sawest a ganav (thief), then thou consentedst with him, and hast taken thy chelek (lot) with mena’afim (adulterers).
Psa 50:19 Thou lettest loose thy mouth to ra’ah, and thy leshon frameth mirmah (deceit).
Psa 50:20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own ben immecha.
Psa 50:21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silent; thou thoughtest that I was altogether like thee; but I will reprove thee, and set the charge before thine eyes.
Psa 50:22 Now consider this, ye that forget Elo’ah (G-d), lest I tear you to pieces, and there be none to rescue.
Psa 50:23 Whoso offereth todah glorifieth Me; and to him that ordereth his derech aright will I show the Salvation of Elohim.

J.

And a happy new year to you and family @PeterC

J.

And you’ve named the crux of my past 15 years of study, and the actual direction of my purpose. I do argue with atheists hoping to win some, but more importantly, I argue in order to expose my own arguments to the most aggressive adversarial scrutiny that I can find.

I was in a discussion with one of the smarter (like, intellectually brilliant) atheists, who was also quite faithful to the logical underpinnings that they all claim, but few adhere to. Super nice guy too.

I was arguing what is commonly called “the free-will defense”, which along with the “soul-making defense”, is the most common explanation that Christians offer for the existence of evil. And this guy answered by saying that if God created humans who freely decide to sin, it’s because God created them with a desire to sin. That there is a part of the constitution of humans that causes them to pick evil. So that stumped me. Like, what was it that caused Eve to choose to disobey such an easy commandment? Why did she and Adam do that? It wasn’t just because she was free to choose evil, since freedom of moral choice doesn’t actually CAUSE anyone to make the immoral choice. And logically, if it’s a fault in them, the people that God created, then it’s a fault that God created, right?

In 1974, Alvin Plantinga published “God, Freedom, and Evil” which has been called - “A witty and logical introduction to the groundbreaking work of Alvin Plantinga, who has done more than anyone else to restore in analytic circles the respectability of belief in God." I won’t dig deep into the history of the philosophical “falling away from belief in God” that occurred basically since the turn of the 20th century when the whole world seemed to embrace Epicurus’s complaint against belief in God, from way back in 300 BC. Basically it says that if evil exists, then an omniscient, all good, all powerful God doesn’t exist, can’t possibly exist. Then WW1 happened, followed closely by WW2, and the holocaust, and Christians/Jews barely had a leg to stand on in claiming that God is a good, all-knowing, all powerful God.

Plantinga’s contribution (among dozens of others - he wrote a lot) was that it could be that God had and has GOOD reasons to allow evil to exist. Even horrific evils. From a philosophical standpoint, that simple argument, since it’s true, forced philosophers and academics off of their invincible hill of logic that they had occupied. God might have a good reason to allow evil. That’s undeniably true. But what is it? What’s the good reason?

And even if there is a good reason, since He created Adam and Eve, and then a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and very Satan himself, and allowed Satan access to Adam and Eve, doesn’t all of that mean that God Himself CREATED evil? Well, we can say “there’s a good reason for it” all day long, but in that case, it still contradicts the scriptures.

This is the hugest, humongousest, hairiest objection to theism that exists. Nothing else comes close. It’s a persistent bugaboo that everyone (scholars, academics, and theologians) have been trying to solve for so long, most just throw up their hands and throw the problem into the “mystery box.” AN unsolvable mystery. There have been thousands of papers written, hundreds of debates debated, YouTubes and Tik Toks and even a few preachings preached on the unsolvabilty of the Problem of Evil, as it’s known.

Wouldn’t it be fun if we solved it, right here on Crosswalk Forums?

Your brother

@PeterC @JennyLynne @KPuff @Bestill @Johann @Inmate @Dr_S @TheologyNerd @Who-me and anyone else please join the new thread!

…quickly (I have caretaker duties to attend to), the atheist refuses to believe in God because evil exists, but evil only exists if there IS God, if there IS a standard; if there is Good against which evil can be known, and can even exist. Logically, to believe in Evil is to belive in God who describes it.

KP

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Nice! Part of the “Moral Argument for God’s Existence”.

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The Problem of Evil
We all live with both the concept and reality of death and suffering. And while worshippers of various deities may attempt to explain things differently, naturalists can chalk it all up to it simply being the way it is.

It’s a “circle of life” idea. Bad things happen sometimes; everything lives and dies, and it’s natural. However, even though accidents are tragic, diseases are heartbreaking, and the thought that everyone you know will pass away at some point is painfully sobering. Evil is something else.

Even the most committed materialist can feel the tendrils of horror slink through their mind at the thought of someone committing child abuse or torture. And crime scene investigators looking into a string of serial killings don’t experience PTSD just because they lived through something we think of as “natural.”

Even a traumatized soldier suffering after seeing the horrors of war likely won’t view what they experienced as belonging to the same ethical category as what Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, or Jeffrey Dahmer enacted, even though their body count may not have been anywhere near as high as what a war might produce.

Similarly, most understand that a policeman shooting a perpetrator during a violent bank robbery or a convicted murderer being put to death aren’t typically considered evil acts but are justified because of the circumstances.

Although terrible and tragic, the fact that the person killed willingly chose to defy the law and infringe on other people’s rights justifies the actions of the people that destroyed them. No one in their right mind would have wanted such things to happen, but because of the context, most would say justice had been served.

So bad things happening to someone, even when caused purposefully by one person upon another person, are justified under specific moral, ethical, and lawful conditions. It’s understandable to a certain degree.

However, evil impacts us differently; it’s on a whole other level than simply saying something is “bad.” It instinctively repulses us, and the reality of evil has caused many people to turn away from God.

They reason that if God created everything (and if evil is a thing), then he must have created evil—so they blame God for all the evil in this world. Essentially, they feel they could have done a better job creating the world themselves. The Roman Epicurean poet, Lucretius, put it this way:

Had God designed the world, it would not be / A world so frail and faulty as we see.1
Did the Original World God Create Contain Evil?
However, Scripture is clear that God did not create a world with evil in it, as the world we now live in does.

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. (Genesis 1:31–2:1)
However, Scripture also says that all things were created by God.

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. (Colossians 1:16)
You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you. (Nehemiah 9:6)
And although many want to blame everything on the devil, even Satan was part of that originally very good world and blameless in the beginning, as Scripture says:

You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. (Ezekiel 28:15)
So, how can we reconcile this seeming contradiction of some “thing” coming into existence apart from God (who supposedly created all things)? Did God change his mind and add something to the creation later on? It seems unlikely since he clarifies in Scripture that all things were created in six literal days!

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. (Exodus 20:11)
When Did Bad Things Come About?
First, let’s discuss when bad things came about. After all, we just read that the original creation was very good.

Scripture says that in the garden of Eden, God gave Adam everything needed for his enjoyment, along with only one negative command. God gave them a clear warning as to the consequences should they disobey him.

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Genesis 2:16–17)
Adam and Eve were fully mature adults who’d been told very clearly what the consequence of their actions would be. And Genesis 3 records the day Adam and Eve willfully rejected God’s generosity and authority and rebelled against him.

Being holy and righteous, God punished them just as he told them he would. And from that point forward, the world was never again called “very good.” So, death and suffering are the consequence of their sin, as Scripture says:

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned. (Romans 5:12)
So, Adam and Eve suffering the consequences of their willful actions against God certainly falls into the category of just punishment. Of course, the challenge we all face now is that we were all effectively “in” Adam when he fell, and we are part of a corrupted race.

We also sin—we do it willingly and contribute to how bad the world now is, and we can’t overcome our situation or live sinlessly by ourselves, which is why we need a Savior.

J.

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We need to look at all the Exodus verses, @ellenvera, in which Pharaoh’s heart is hardened to discover a little more about that phenomenon, not just that one verse. Here they are:

Exo_4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Exo_7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
Exo_7:13 Still Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo_7:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Pharaoh’s heart is hardened; he refuses to let the people go.
Exo_7:22 But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts. So Pharaoh’s heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo_8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo_8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exo_8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.
Exo_9:7 And Pharaoh sent, and behold, not one of the livestock of Israel was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.
Exo_9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
Exo_9:34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Exo_9:35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses.
Exo_10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them,
Exo_10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go.
Exo_10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let them go.
Exo_11:10 Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh, and the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land.
Exo_14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD.” And they did so.
Exo_14:8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the people of Israel while the people of Israel were going out defiantly.
Exo_14:17 And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.

(1) God hardened Pharaoh’s heart but was not responsible for his sinful rebellion.

(2) Pharaoh hardened his own heart and thus was fully responsible for his punishment as the king of Egypt (Exodus 9:34).

(3) The Bible does not always show the other aspects of an incident. For example, in Job’s life, he doesn’t realize that Satan and God have had the conversations of chapters 1 and 2, so that the responsibility for Job’s suffering is not God’s but the devil’s.