Why did God create a material existance to then, suddenly destroy it?

Theology
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Our God is a “Righteous” God. If God could have chosen other “RIGHT” ways of creating this creation He would have. God had many other choices for creating the primary colors of the rainbow, but the reflection we see represents an aspect of His righteousness, as in all things He created.

God needed to create this material existance, because out of His righteousness, there was only one “right” way to create an element in a being, after His own image, that like a vessel, would carry this cargo and overcome the storms of this material existance to gain access to the other side eternally. That element is “FAITH”. We are “FAITH” beings. Apart from faith, we cannot please God.

The angels marvel over us because of who we are before God and what we mean to God. Why didn’t God just create all the names in the book of life and fill His mansions, and eleminate creating the earth and this material creation, thereby bypassing sin, hell and the devil?

Because in order for love to be “REAL”, it must be tested, and tested by FAITH. God in His devine wisdom, as a Father, wanted a righteous way, a real way, to show mankind, that He is willing to humble Himself and interact with His children and that He Himself might be tested, by His own righteous covenants and laws and earn His right to be loved and worshiped and honored and praised…thus the cross, in order that we might see from His perspective that we are above all.

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That’s an interesting way of looking at it.

I’ve usually thought about it a bit more simply, that creation wasn’t made just to be destroyed, but part of a bigger story. There’s brokenness now, but also the idea of restoration, not just an ending.

So instead of everything being wiped out, it feels more like things being made new in a way we don’t fully understand yet.

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Jesus says: “In my Father’s house there are many mansions; I go to prepare a place for you”. Imagine that, there a vacancies in the kingdom of heaven awaiting to be prepared for us. The purpose of our existence is to fill those vacancies. That is the bigger picture. The present picture, at the present time, is to overcome this world and not fall for the devil’s deceptions and temptations that seeks to rob, steal and kill our faith in Jesus, anyway he can.

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@CreatedbyGod

I read your post with interest. Your topic TITLE is in the form of a question, but your commentary seems to be your own answer to your own question. I’m not sure if you are still looking for an answer, or just fomenting discussion.

Either way, I’d like some clarification on your postulate:

I’m not sure what you mean by this assertion, but taken at face value I don’t think I can agree with it.

Maybe looking at your topic like this might open it up to better understanding.

Topic: Why would a man plant a grove of orange trees to then suddenly destroy the oranges by picking them, peeling them, and then crushing them?

Possibly, because you understand something of horticulture you can clearly see that Orange Juice was the man’s goal, the destructive nature of picking, peeling and crushing was the process to reach the goal.

Back to your postulate, there is no reason to believe that in order for orange juice to be real it must be tested. In point-of-fact, things that are not real cannot be tested; only real things can be tested, so it is more correct to say in order for something (i.e. love, or orange juice) to be tested it must be real.

I think your topic question is better answered by The Word of God in Romans 8:18-21

For I consider that the sufferings (picking, peeling, and crushing) of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us (the orange juice). For the earnest expectation of the creation (the orange grove) eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God (orange juice). For the creation (the orange grove) was subjected to futility (aging decay), not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope (of orange juice); because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Hope this perspective is welcomed and helpful.
KP

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I’m deeply uncomfortable with the premise and answer to that premise in the OP. As it comes across as very Manichaean.

I would, in fact, first argue that the question being posed in the title has a false premise. God has no intention on destroying material existence. God created the physical world for His own glory, and it’s good, and God intends the material, physical world to exist forever.

The human body isn’t a vessel carrying cargo; the human body is a quintessential feature of what it means to be a human being–and to be human is innately good. We bear the image and likeness of God because God created human beings with the purpose to have meaning in the world as His image-bearers. The concept of image-bearing is tied directly to worship.

Let’s take a step back and approach this subject from an ancient mindset. In the ancient world when people built temples or shrines devoted to a god, they would build the structure, it’s shape, and then fill it with features and decorations. And finally the last act would be installing an image of the god, and there would be priests who conducted the rites, rendering services to the gods, bridging worshipers and the gods, etc.

A clear theme in Scripture is that the true God isn’t like any of the false gods. The true God can’t be depicted in a graven image–an idol, for example. But the Bible does talk about the overwhelming presence of God. When Solomon builds the Temple in Jerusalem, a permanent Tabernacle, Solomon says, “The heavens, not even the heavens of heavens, can contain You–how much less this house which I have built” or the Scripture which say “The heavens are Your throne and the earth is Your footstool”. God is overwhelming, so much so that the whole universe in spite of its vastness is unable to contain Him–and yet He chooses to be present here.

Going back to Genesis 1, when God created the heavens and the earth what do we see? We see God ordering and creating the structure–day and night, dry land and water, the waters below and the waters above. And we see God filling that structure, that ordered space, with beauty and life–plants and the sun and the moon and the creatures that fill the skies and swim the seas, which roam and crawl upon he land. And then, at the very end, God decides to create, to install, His image–not an idol, but human beings which will govern this world He made. Human beings who will worship, relate to, love–who will be (as in Genesis 2) caretakers of a garden, walking with God, knowing God, loving Him. Image-bearing is about reflecting God into the rest of creation and reflecting creation back to God as worship. This is why, in the end, the full human vocation is described as “kings and priests”. The universe is God’s Temple, and He chooses to dwell here with us, and we with Him, honoring Him, and rendering to Him true worship as His creatures, His image-bearing creation.

The problem is that this good world has been infected by a noxious disease: sin and death. And in a sense, human sin has resulted in a kind of hostage situation where the devil holds us, and the world, captive. And the power the devil uses to hold the world captive is death. God’s covenant faithfulness to His whole creation means God intends to set all things to rights, and He shall do this through His own Son, born in human likeness, born of a woman; that is to say, the Incarnation. (see, e.g. Hebrews 2:14-15).

So that all who believe in Christ shall not perish but have life everlasting. Eternal life isn’t as disembodied spirits in a spiritual realm called “heaven”. It’s having the same life that Jesus, risen from the dead, has–which is very much physical, flesh and bone, and it’s going to be forever right here on God’s good green earth. The “going to heaven when we die” stuff is basically just the bus stop between here and eternity. When a man is on a long journey he stops at an inn to get some rest, the inn isn’t the destination, but it is a rest in the middle of the journey. In the same way, the “going to heaven” isn’t the goal, it’s the rest stop, it’s the intermediate state, it’s in the middle. The end goal is resurrection. See Romans 8:11 for example.

So rather than destroy it. God’s goal with material existence is to rescue, redeem, renew and glorify it. That’s why we are believers and confessors of the Risen Jesus. Jesus Christ stopped being dead, He’s alive. He ascended and is seated at the right hand of the Father as King and Lord, and He will return, and set all things to rights. World everlasting.

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I can see that you’re on the right track because you ask good questions. I can answer it for you buy you should understand that part of what I say is speculation and some of it is fact.

I *think* that us humans were in heaven before being born here, and…we saw Lucifer fall in heaven. Then some of us asked the Lord some questions. Why did he turn against you? (there was iniquity in his heart),

Now think about those who live in heaven (at that time), we had no knowledge of evil, suffering, pain and so forth…

Lord why did he do that? (he was evil). Lord what is evil? (I love all because I am Love) Lord what is love? We had no knowledge of good and evil, so what does Love mean Lord?

That’s the end of my speculation. The next part is fact. I wondered very much at the answer to those questions and so began praying about it. Lord teach me and show me this…so He taught me that Earth is God’s University of Brotherly love, where we get to learn about love and how to love others. Love can not be taught or learned unless there is suffering and pain involved. Otherwise, how could one comprehend love?

So earth is class on love and we are on a field trip! (Ohh Daddy, get me out of here! This is worse than summer camp!)

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to me, it means, at least in part, that love is easy when things are good. but do all of us love someone when the “weather” turns bad? or are we only fairweather friends? are we like hebrews in the desert, thankful when the water comes, then right back to cursing God when that gift seems to run dry? or do we have faith that He will bring us more in good time? just examples of what i think OP is saying there. will a person only worship God when He keeps one rich, or is that same person going to be like Job, who continually praised Him even as he lost everything except his embittered wife, and his skin was breaking out in awful sores or boils or whatever they were? just my thoughts on that assertion.

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I believe he created the testing in this physical world for us to make the choice because he wants our love of him by the free will he gave us.

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@wantthetruth

I sure understand the sentiment that you are expressing. Of course, I get it! The egregious error you describe is ubiquitous; we all know it well, and most of us are no-doubt guilty of this moral failure.

However, your shared opinion does not really address the statement I took exception with, the statement “CreatedbyGod” made, that “for love to be REAL, it had to be tested”, as if the “testing” is the catalyst that brings love into reality. This axiom does not work for me, since God’s Love precedes everything; Love exists before creation. Because Love is “before”, Love is logicallly “real” before it could ever be tested. It precedes everything, as The Apostle John states, “God is Love” (1 Jn 4:8), and we know God is preeminent, God comes first, before everything else. God is not “real” because he has been adequately tested. Love can be tested, but the testing does not make it real. The fact that Love is "real is what makes it testable. Get what I’m saying?

The love you spoke of (above) seems to be sentimental love, i.e personal, and experiential. The love you speak of is something WE can FEEL for someone (or something) else. I get that! The Love that The Apostle John was speaking of was not sentimental, but rather intentional (active) goodwill toward others (Gk: agape). Agape Love is not primarily what God feels, but rather specifically what God does. This is why I said to “CreatedbyGod” that I was not sure what was meant by the assertion in question. Does that make sense?

I sure understand what you mean when the love you speak of is sentimental, but is not accurate when speaking of agape Love. Agape Love is actually manifest in bad weather. Godly Love IS expressed and seen best in bad-weather. It’s the bad-weather that demonstrates Godly Love best, because LOVE is, by definition, an act that meets needs, and unmet needs are bad-weather.

Thanks for the discussion

KP

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Brother, I don’t think that assertion is rooted in biblical (God-centered) love, but leans more toward emotional/conditional love if not carefully qualified. Why Job only?

1Co_13:4-7 “Love is patient and kind… it does not insist on its own way… it bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”
“endures” (ὑπομένει) Love is not governed by changing circumstances (“weather”), but has a steadfast, covenantal quality.
Biblical love (ἀγάπη) is not reactive, but rooted in character and truth.

Joh_13:34 “Just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.”
Christ’s love is the standard, not fluctuating emotion, but self-giving, sacrificial, consistent (cf. Rom_5:8).

Hos_6:4 “Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away.”
This is precisely the problem with emotional love, it is temporary and circumstantial.

On your illustration given (fair-weather vs. suffering):

The comparison to Israel in the wilderness is actually an example of deficient love and faith, not the norm.
Exo_16:2-3 - they grumbled when conditions changed.
Their “love” was tied to provision, not to God Himself.

In contrast:

Job_1:21 “The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”
This reflects true Godward love and faith-not dependent on outward blessing.

Key issue here, as I see it.

Your assertion rightly observes that many people love only when things are good, but if left there, it risks defining love in experiential terms rather than biblical terms.

So what is being “tested” here?

Jas_1:2-3

“Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.”
“trials” πειρασμοῖς (peirasmois) - trials, tests
“testing” δοκίμιον (dokimion) - proving, genuineness

1Pe_1:6-7

“though now for a little while… you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith… may be found to result in praise…”
“trials” πειρασμοῖς (peirasmois)
“tested genuineness” δοκίμιον (dokimion)

Rom_5:3-4

“we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character…”
“character” δοκιμή (dokimē) - proven character

Jas_1:12

“Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life…”
“stood the test” δόκιμος (dokimos) - approved after testing

Heb_12:11

“For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness…”
“discipline” παιδεία (paideia) - training, correction through hardship

Gen_22:1

“After these things God tested Abraham…”
“tested” נִסָּה (nissāh) - to prove, try

Deu_8:2

“that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart…”
“testing” נַסּוֹת (nassōt) - to prove, examine

Psa_66:10

“For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.”
“tested” צְרַפְתָּנוּ (ṣeraptānu) - to refine, smelt
“tried” בָּחַן (bāḥan) - to examine, prove

Pro_17:3

“The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the LORD tests hearts.”
“tests” בֹּחֵן (boḥēn) - examiner, tester

Zec_13:9

“I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver…”
“refine” צָרַף (ṣāraph) - to smelt, purify

Mal_3:3

“He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver…”
“refiner” צָרֵף (ṣārēph) - one who refines

Cheers and God bless.

J.

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thanks for your response. i was just saying what i felt the OP was getting at, since you said you “weren’t sure” what they meant by their assertion.

i like your thoughts; only, its not that i think ‘testing’ alone is such a catalyst. my words i feel were conflated into more than i was trying to say. again i was just trying to explain what i felt that individual assertion was getting at.

what do you mean, why job only? i simply gave an example of someone whos love was literally tested by God and how he responded to it.

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Nowhere in Scripture would you find agape is being “tested” but you would find...love being proven genuine through action and obedience.

Scripture does state that love is.

proved (2Co_8:8 - δοκιμάζω language)
demonstrated (1Jn_3:18)
validated through obedience (Joh_14:15)

In both the Old and New Testaments, the words translated “test” mean “to prove by trial.” Therefore, when God tests His children, His purpose is to prove that our faith is real. Not that God needs to prove it to Himself since He knows all things, but He is proving to us that our faith is real, that we are truly His children, and that no trial will overcome our faith.

In His Parable of the Sower, Jesus identifies the ones who fall away as those who receive the seed of God’s Word with joy, but, as soon as a time of testing comes along, they fall away. James says that the testing of our faith develops perseverance, which leads to maturity in our walk with God (James 1:3–4). James goes on to say that testing is a blessing, because, when the testing is over and we have “stood the test,” we will “receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him” (James 1:12). Testing comes from our heavenly Father who works all things together for good for those who love Him and who are called to be the children of God (Romans 8:28).

The testing or trials we undergo come in various ways. Becoming a Christian will often require us to move out of our comfort zones and into the unknown. Perseverance in testing results in spiritual maturity and completeness. This is why James wrote, “Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds” (James 1:2). The testing of faith can come in small ways and daily irritations; they may also be severe afflictions (Isaiah 48:10) and attacks from Satan (Job 2:7). Whatever the source of the testing, it is to our benefit to undergo the trials that God allows.

The account of Job is a perfect example of God’s allowing one of His saints to be tested by the devil. Job bore all his trials patiently and “did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing” (Job 1:22). However, the account of Job’s testing is proof that Satan’s ability to try us is limited by God’s sovereign control. No demon can test or afflict us with beyond what God has ordained. All our trials work toward God’s perfect purpose and our benefit.

There are many examples of the positive results of being tested. The psalmist likens our testing to being refined like silver (Psalm 66:10). Peter speaks of our faith as “of greater worth than gold,” and that’s why we “suffer grief in all kinds of trials” (1 Peter 1:6–7). In testing our faith, God causes us to grow into strong disciples who truly live by faith and not by what we see (2 Corinthians 5:7).

When we experience the storms of life, we should be like the tree that digs its roots ever more deeply for a greater grip in the earth. We must “dig our roots” more deeply into God’s Word and cling to His promises so we can weather whatever storms come against us.

Most comforting of all, we know that God will never allow us to be tested beyond what we are able to handle by His power. His grace is sufficient for us, and His power is made perfect in our weakness (2 Corinthians 12:10). “That is why,” Paul said, “for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.”

J.

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Job_1:8

“And the LORD said to Satan, ‘Have you considered my servant Job… a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?’”
Here Job is described as “blameless” (תָּם, tām - complete, whole) and one who “fears” God (יָרֵא, yārēʾ - reverent fear), establishing the integrity of his character before the test begins.

Job_1:9-11

“Does Job fear God for no reason?… stretch out your hand… and he will curse you to your face.”
The central issue raised is whether Job’s fear of God is genuine or merely dependent on blessing-whether it is conditional or true.

Job_23:10

“But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.”
Job acknowledges that he is being “tried” (בְּחָנַנִי, beḥānani - examined, proved), using refining language that points to purification and the revealing of what is genuine.

To what purpose was Job being “tested?”

J.

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While there is not, strictly speaking, anywhere in Scripture that emphatically rejects the pre-existence of the soul; this idea has long been rejected within Christianity for a good many reasons.

Firstly, the biblical arguments. When Scripture speaks about our individual existence, it speaks of our creation within the womb. “Within my mother’s womb, you formed me”. This is the basis for the historic Christian doctrine of Creationism*

*Originally “Creationism” referred to a belief in the origin of the human soul; that the soul is created ex-nihilo in the womb along with the body. Thus the body is ensouled in the womb; early Christian thinkers debated when ensoulment took place, but the emerging consensus has been at conception. Which has also been a chief argument against abortion, as if the body is ensouled at conception–the soul created along with the body at conception–then abortion results in the death of a human person even no matter at what stage of development. Of course, as I said, other ideas have existed historically. But the historic position on ensoulment is Creationism: the soul is created ex nihilo by God in the womb.

Further, the idea of the pre-existence of the soul creates problems: it results in a Platonic world view that sees the material world as inferior. In the cosmological system of Plato the material world is an inferior mirror of the true world of Ideas. While later Gnostic groups and Gnostic-derived groups like the Manichaeans would take this further by arguing that not only is the material world less-than, but that it is, in fact, in some sense evil.

However the Christian looks to what is revealed, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” and when God saw all that He had made He said of it, “It is very good”. That Hebrew phrase translated as “very good” is actually a profoundly beautiful expression, it can mean “exceedingly beautiful”. The word tov can mean both good and beautiful, and the adjective me’od means “much” “great”, it’s also the word found in the commandment to love God in Deuteronomy 6:5, to love God “with all your me’od” often translated here as “strength” or “might”, but means “with your much” or “with your exceeding”–that is, with everything you have and all that you are. When in Genesis we read that everything God made was tov me’od, it means it was all exceedingly, much, great, excessively, fully, wonderfully good and beautiful.

I’m not a soul inhabiting a body. I’m a human person.

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i can dig that.

yeah, i mean, you even say “test” there. one way or another, its being tested; so how are we in disagreement, ultimately?

sounds the same as you say. ?

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Love is expressed by actions. Actions and obedience in all things. That way the recipient of the love can see that you love them.

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Firstly, I seek answers from the author of the bible, The Holy Spirit, because only He can lead us to the Truth. The Holy Spirit searches the depths of God and then reveals them. If the bible says it, I believe it, and if I don’t comprehend it, I seek after Him the way Abraham did. God is the same yesterday today, yeah and forever.

The bible says God created us from the dust of the “EARTH” we were never in heaven before that. The bible does teach the God create the angels first, than He created man. However, those whom God among the righteous to see visions of His kingdom, is different than saying we were there to see Satan fall from heaven. I don’t know where you get that interpretation. Perhaps because Jesus said while experiencing His manly life on the earth, you assume He must have been human when He saw Satan fall. If that’s the case, then why would God require Jesus to be born as a man through the womb of a woman, why didn’t God send Jesus the way He appeared to doubting Thomas; simply walk through a wall and say howdy ya’ll. Why did He need to be born, and then at baptism be born AGAIN.

Also, in Jeremiah, God says: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you” God indicating His divine purpose for the creation of man. God didn’t say - we knew each other. God, before the creation itself, had to have a clear vision of what He was going to create, and for what purpose. We see this in Job, when God says: “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the world”. Like a Contractor, He had a vision and a clear plan even before the construction. Same with man.

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We were never in heaven before earth? When Jesus said I knew you before you were in the womb, He didn’t say I knew about you. He didn’t say I knew who you would be. He said I knew you. I knew You. So we were there. Obviously we had to be there and were talking to Him enough that He knew us alright. It wouldn’t surprise me if we found out that we chose to come to earth and perhaps even chose our parents?

We are not humans on a spiritual journey. We are spirit beings on a human journey. We’re spirit soul and body. I am a spirit. I have a soul. I live in a flesh body. I’ve heard it said that earth is God’s school of love. The part about us seeing satan fall is speculation and I made that quite clear. But if God made a University of Brotherly Love, why did He need to do that? Did God say, I love you to us in heaven, and some of us said, Lord what does Love mean? Because we had no knowledge of good or evil yet, so we had nothing to compare it to. SO we probably didn’t comprehend love yet. And yes of course this is speculation. I do not remember yet (Lol) what happened right before I was born here, why I was sent here to learn. (I hope I pass!) But of course I will because of Jesus’s demonstration of love for us. He jumped on the grenade that we could live. Now I understand love and evil. One can not learn Love without suffering and evil, it is a necessary part of the course.

This was hard on earth though! Perhaps next time I will take the Lord at His word and keep my big mouth shut! I don’t need to understand Love to be Loved.

I heard a little girl’s testimony about she was sick and an Angel visited her and as she was telling the testimony she mentioned the Angel told her that the little divot below our nose and above our lip is where an Angel touched us right after birth to wipe our memory of heaven. So we was born with amnesia!

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We don’t have a Body a soul a spirit and the holy spirit. We God breathed into man he, man, BECAME, mand didn’t get a soul, he became a “Living Being”, that is what Soul means in the ancient Hebrew - BEING. We didn’t get a being, we became a living being or soul. Soul is “WHO” we are. Bless the Lord oh my Soul and all that is within me…! To paraphrase: Bless the Lord oh my living being, and all its members, bless His holy name.

I will repeat what I said in another post; Jesus walked among us as one of us, a Living Soul/Being, but on the cross He said, “Father I commend my Spirit unto you”. Jesus said that, because flesh and blood, the dust and the earth our being’s were made from “…can not enter the kingdom of heaven”. When we die, our life, the life or consciousness, because we BECAME consious of life, that life that this being got is still living. The life God gave us doesn’t just die with the body. That is why God said to Cane, “I hear the blood of your brother Able CRYING out to me from the grave.”

Jesus upon resurrection Got a new body, one that could do things His old body could not do. In His new spiritual body, like angels, He could appear and suddenly disapear, He could walk through walls, He could ascend into heaven, anti gravity, and He will descend and reign. We will be like Him. He was the first fruit, with more to follow.

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This is simply incorrect. Jesus was physically raised in the flesh. As for walking through doors, which it never says, He appeared inside a locked room. There are instances of people “teleporting” around in the Bible.

The Boat. Jesus calmed the storm and “immediately” the Boat was on shore. Then you have Acts 8:26–40, Philip led an Ethiopian eunuch to faith in Christ. Following their meeting, the eunuch was baptized, “the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. Philip, however, appeared at Azotus” (verses 39–40). Besides that, He is God, so He can do whatever He wants, of course.

The whole point of the resurrection is that Jesus came back in the flesh. That He laid down His life, then He took it back again. When WE die, yes, we will get a new body. Many think it will be a spiritual one. Some say simply a perfect body. Whatever that means. Guess we will have to wait and see to be sure.
Peter