A heartfelt post wrestles with understanding suffering, God’s mercy, and unanswered prayer. It invites others to share how they’ve reconciled faith with life’s hardest moments. Join in to encourage and reflect on how God works, even when He feels silent.
#GodsMercy #FaithInSuffering #ChristianQuestions #christianforums #crosswalkforums #forums #crosswalk #faithcommunity #faithforums
Jesus, the Holy sinless Son of God took All our sin upon himself.
He became sin, bearing our guilt, our shame and our punishment.
The punishment for sin is exclusion from God.
When he became si God separated himself from the second person of the trinity.
Jesus literally experience hell for us.
Hi,
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Jesus was, for that time on the cross, detached from the Trinity.
God can have no association with sin.
Jesus had just taken on the sins of the world.
So the Father and Jesus wee no longer one.
He was alone for the first time ever.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
The good news is that we know Jesus was victorious before He died, and the union was restored.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
When Jesus uttered his last words before He died, He was again one with the Father.
Blessings
WrestleWGod
My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning?
O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; And in the night season, and am not silent.
But You are holy, Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
Our fathers trusted in You; They trusted, and You delivered them.
They cried to You, and were delivered; They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
All those who see Me ridicule Me; They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
“He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”
But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother’s womb You have been My God.
Be not far from Me, For trouble is near; For there is none to help.
Many bulls have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion.
I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death.
For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet;
I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me.
They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.
But You, O LORD, do not be far from Me; O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
Deliver Me from the sword, My precious life from the power of the dog.
Save Me from the lion’s mouth And from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered Me.
I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
You who fear the LORD, praise Him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; But when He cried to Him, He heard.
My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
The poor shall eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the LORD. Let your heart live forever!
All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You.
For the kingdom is the LORD’S, And He rules over the nations.
All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
A posterity shall serve Him. It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born, That He has done this. (It is finished)
In Psalm 22, The Spirit of The Christ (Jesus) compelled King David to prophecy of the death of the messiah is graphic detail. King David was not actually abandoned by God when he wrote this psalm, but he sure must have felt like he was. When men are on their last thread, they cry out in agony. A man of God will cry out to the only one who remains pure in every circumstance; he will plead with the only one who is able to relieve his agony. A man who trusts only in himself has only himself to cry to in his agony. Men facing certain death (like awaiting execution) will reveal in what they trust, and from where they hope their relief will come. Pleading with God in complete agony is a strong testimony that the one pleading trusts only in God, there is no loss of faith because the faith is real and permeant. David felt this way, and in his psalm prophesied of the death of The Messiah.
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying,
“Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated,
“My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
Mark 15:34
Blessings
KP
Hi,
Habakkuk 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he? KJV
God cannot look upon sin.
Jesus had taken on Himself the sins of the world.
So the connection between Father and Son was broken.
Jesus felt it.
He felt it.
Jesus did it because He loves us that much.
Thank you for loving us Jesus.
Blessings
As @KPuff has rightly said, Jesus is quoting Psalms 22, and if u read towards the end of
u see it foreshadows the victory of Jesus over Death.
Lemme add some more, I have lots interesting to say. Correct me @KPuff and @SincereSeeker if I’m wrong or if my points don’t align with the traditional orthodox/catholic belief.
Let’s dive into the meaning
1.Pslamic allusion, showing scriptural fulfilment and identification
Jesus’ cry is a direct citation of Psalm 22:1, a lament attributed to David. This intertextual echo serves not merely as an expression of agnony but functions as a Christological hermeneutic: Jesus is not only experiencing abandonment but identifying Himself as the Suffering Servant-King of the Psalteric narrative. As I said before, we see, Psalm 22 begins in desolation and ends in vindication and cosmic praise. Christ is revealing Himself in the arc of that narrative, the crucifixion is not the end, and resurrection is implied.
2. Cry of Dereliction or Cry of Identification (a very important topic in many textbooks)
This utterance has traditionally been called the “Cry of Dereliction”. Scholars like Jürgen Moltmann argue in The Crucified God that in this moment, God truly experiences God-forsakenness, not in a metaphorical but in a theopathic way, the suffering son penetrates the very heart of the Trinity. Lemme tell u more about Moltmannian Theopaschitism, it means God suffers in and with Jesus. The forsakenness is real, but not a rupture in the Trinity; rather, it is the Trinitarian Participation in the human condition of alienation and death. Let’s discuss more about this.
How can God be forsaken by God?, That’s the theological shock. On the Cross, God enters into the human experience of abandonment, of divine silence, even of hell itself. Now it’s not in a metaphorical way, because if its so, then Jesus was acting out abandonment like a symbol or drama, but I said theophatic, not metaphorical because Theophathic comes from (theos=God and Pathos = suffering) God actually suffers in God’s being, truly and deeply. He just doesn’t feel abandoned but rather HE IS abandoned. But what Moltmann argued was the suffering of the Son penetrates the very heart of the Trinity and this statement has huge implications. What it means is
God is Trinity.
Traditionally, the Trinity cannot suffer or be divided, God is impassible
But Moltmann says that " On the cross, the suffering of the Son (Jesus) is not just human suffering — it reaches into the inner life of God."
That is
The Father suffers the loss of the Son
The Son suffers the absence of the Father
The Spirit holds them in love even through this rupture. So the pain in Calvary is felt by the whole Trinity and not just the body of Jesus.
This is an interesting view from Jürgen Moltmann but if u look from Orthodox lens certain aspects of his theology can be problematic and even verging on heresy.
But according to orthodox tradition:
God is impassible — meaning:
God does not suffer in His divine nature.
God is unchanging (immutable) and cannot be affected or wounded in His divinity.
This makes more sense as it protects the divine transcendence and perfection of God. And if u go to Chalcedonian Christology, we can infer that the suffering and death of Christ is according to his human nature, not his divine nature. To say that “God suffers” is on the verge or is a heresy from the Chalcedonian viewpoint.
3. Soteriology: A topic of Penal Substitution and Substitutionary Abandonment (another important topic)
Within the Reformed and Evangelical soteriology, this cry represents the penal dimension of atonement. Jesus, the sinless Lamb, is made sin on our behalf (2 Cor 5:21). The forsakenness corresponds to the judicial withdrawal of the Father’s favourable presence, as Christ becomes the eschatological scapegoat, bearing divine wrath. As R.C. Sproul said (quite a famous one, and one which I admire) is “The Father turned His back on the Son.” This abandonment is not metaphysical separation (which would violate Trinitarian unity) but a judicial act within the economy of redemption".
But again, if you look from an Orthodox lens, Orthodoxy rejects the legalistic framework of Penal Substitutionary atonement in the way reformed theology frames it. Instead, Christ assumes fallen human nature to heal and deify it (theosis), not to be punished in our place. 2 Cor 5:21 is read ontologically and sacramentally, not juridically.
4. Trinitarian Tension without Schism
Christ’s cry must be interpreted with Chalcedonian balance. Christ is one person in two natures, fully divine and fully human. The forsakenness pertains economically and experientially to His human nature, not ontologically to His divine personhood. The communication idiomatum (communication of properities) allows us to say God the Son experienced abandonment, but not that the Trinity was divided. Anthanasius contra Arianos: The Son remains in ontological unity with the Father, even when economically alienated in his incarnate mission.
5. Mystical Theology: Kababasis and Kenosis
From the mystical tradition, particularly Eastern Orthodox thought, this cry is a moment of katabasis (descent) and kenosis (self-emptying, refer to Philippians 2:7). Christ, in full obedience, descends into the abyss of human despair. The forsakenness is part of His solidarity with the human condition, even in the most abandoned and hellish states. St Gregory Nazianzen writes, “That which is not assumed is not healed.” Christ assumes even the alienation of God, thereby redeeming it.
5. Apophatic Reverence: Mystery beyond comprehension
Ultimately, this utterance reaches into the apophatic depths of divine mystery. As Karl Barth notes “God is God- even in His abandonment” The moment expresses the unspeakable paradox of a God who remains God precisely by not remaining aloof from our plight. This is a paradoxical theodicy that God allows Godself to be “God-abandoned” so that no human being ever truly is. And this is a powerful statement, one that, when I read, tears always flow from my eyes.
Thanx Samuel_23 for your comprehensive academic explanation.
Your thoughts are shared by some great men of Faith.
As I read your post, I was reminded of what God said, in His own very comprehensive soliloquy, recorded by the Prophet Isaiah (Chapters 40-66).
“Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:4-5
Thoughts echoed by the Apostle Peter:
“For to this you were called,
because Christ also suffered for us,
leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
“Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;
who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return;
when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree,
that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-
-by whose stripes you were healed.
For you were like sheep going astray,
but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.”
1 Peter 2:21-25
May we each continue to more fully understand and internalize these ideas until that day when ALL is revealed.
KP
@SincereSeeker @KPuff (sorry for distrubing, but this one is a very important concept too)
An important part, which I feel I must elucidate, is Katabasis and Kenosis
Katabasis
Katabasis is a Greek word that means descent or going down. In Christian Theology, it refers especially to Christ descent into the depths: into human suffering, into Death, into Hades. Jesus didn’t just skim the surface of human pain, He descended into the lowest point of human existence. Abandonment, shame, suffering, death and even the silence of God, he experienced it all. That’s katabasis.
There is no depth of human pain into which Christ has not gone.
Kenosis
Kenosis means self-emptying
as in Philippians 2:6-8, a beautiful verse “Though He was in the form of God, He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself (ἐκένωσεν), taking the form of a servant…”
Kenosis is the self-emptying of Jesus, not of his divinity but of the privileges and glory of divine majesty. He humbles himself fully, becoming human, serving, suffering and dying. Kenosis shows us that God’s glory is not in overpowering us, but in humbling Himself for love.
St. Gregory Nazianzen’s quote
St. Gregory Nazianzen said that “That which is not assumed is not healed”, and this quote has profound theological implications.
This means Jesus had to fully assume every part of our human nature, be it mind, body, soul, emotions, even our sense of abandonment, in order to heal it all. In other words, if Jesus didn’t fully take on human fear, sadness, pain and even the feeling of being forsaken, then those parts of us would remain unreedeemed but ** because He assumed it all, He heals it all**
So when He cried “Why have you forsaken me?”, He was assuming even our darkest moments to heal them
hehe im not a scholar, but rather i was thirsty to find answer to this question, this was one of the questions i had in my mind when i was 15 years or so, and from then on, I just went with the flow.
@Who-me @Joe, but that would imply rupture of Trinity and that can never happen. I have put forward the explanation why this cannot be so…i will wait for your reply brothers, correct me if I’m wrong, with love and kindness, my brothers.
Blessings
Hi,
“Joe, but that would imply rupture of Trinity and that can never happen. I have put forward the explanation why this cannot be so…i will wait for your reply brothers, correct me if I’m wrong, with love and kindness, my brothers.” Quote from Samuel23
I would disagree.
Jesus took upon Him the sins of the world.
He did not sin within Himself.
Jesus, like the sacrificial lamb, remained innocent.
So the Trinity would still remain intact.
But, as the Habakkuk passage explains, the Father cannot look upon sin.
Jesus felt that loss of connection during the three hours of darkness.
That’s what He did for us.
By the way, I am not trying to correct you.
I am just presenting how the Bible reads to me.
I want to learn other people’s perspectives because it makes me more knowledgeable.
Blessings
@Joe i see ur stance, okok thanks
Peace to all,
To me, The Logic of the pains from Baptized Death through Sacrifice for Penance forgiven in Resurrection from the Two Nature God of Abraham for becoming again through One God in being from the cross.
Rationally the Christ is conceived from the Power of the Holy Spirit Family through the pre-existing soul of Jesus becoming The Christ in all mankind becoming again One Holy Spirit Family One God in being Virgin born from the Immaculate Conception through the New Eve Baptized from the Holy Spirit through the Soul of The Transformed Christ in all mankind now able to become from Death through Resurrection from Sacrifice through Penance, forgiven from the Power of The Holy Spirit through the New Adam from the Immaculate Flesh of the New Eve through the Bodies of the Christ in all mankind becoming again, One God, One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
The Trinity logic of “IF” “Then”, to me.
In all generalization “IF” ever there is a properly defined Trinity, verified through the logic of a child’s understanding, “THEN” The Trinity transforms from created becoming again immortally glorified and incorruptibly transfigured through both natures from the God from Abraham, spirit and life becoming again One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
Logically through the Two Nature God of the Faith of Abraham, Jesus as The Christ experiences physical pain and mental separation through The Entire Holy Spirit Family of God becoming again One Holy Spirit Family One God in being through His soul for the flesh the Body of Christ through both natures becoming through the Christ becoming One Holy Family One God in being reborn and saved into the New Heaven and Earth, Rebirth and Salvation from the Cross, from where the Blood and Water really did flow, opening the Gates of Heaven for all.
He was in the tomb of Jerusalem for three days, and The “Tomb” is Jerusalem, rode in on a Donkey, left on a Cross, to me.
Monday of the Fifth Week of Easter
“I have told you this while I am with you.
The Advocate, the Holy Spirit
whom the Father will send in my name–
he will teach you everything
and remind you of all that I told you.”
Peace always,
Stephen
Where is it implied or said that the trinity is ruptured?
The Trinity is a spiritual thing, as both God and the Spirit do not have physical bodies.
Jesus in carrying our sin etc became sin and the Father could not look at him.
This involved a spiritual separation, it does not imply a rupture.
As humans we fall out of fellowship with family members, that falling out does not rupture the family.
Once Jesus had paid the penalty, the sin was dealt with and the union of the trinity was restored
@Joe and @Who-me , i will tell why i raised this question, I based my answer on your previous posts. Here me out brothers, lets engage in a respectful discussion on this matter. Since its a very important matter, I will discuss
@SincereSeeker, pls check this out also
Here me out.
I will tell first the meaning of “ontological” since its going to me used more and more. Ontology refers to the nature or essence of something, especially God’s being.
Let’s dive
There was no separation within the Trinity- whether be ontological or RELATIONAL
TO state that “Jesus was spiritually separated from the Father” or that “the connection between Father and Son was broken” implies either
A division in the divine essence (which is indivisible)
or
A schism in the hypostatic union between the divine and human natures of Christ.
Both position are explicitly condemned by the creeds and councils of the universal church
because
God’s essence is inseparable
as seen in
“Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one”- Deuteronomy 6:4
“I and the Father are one”- John 10:30
“God is not man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind.”- Numbers 23:19
To assert separation in the Trinity is to introduce composition and change into God, which violates divine simplicity and immutability, two non-negotiable attributes of God affirmed by Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin and the entirety of classical theism. The Divine essence is not composed of parts or subject to temporal conditions like alienation or relational fracture. To assert otherwise is to affirm a mutable God, which is a metaphysical impossibility and the Scripture clearly says, “God cannot be changed”.
2. Habakkuk 1:13: understand
@Joe referenced Habakkuk 1:13 as “You are of purer eyes than to behold evil” as though this proves that the Father cannot “look upon” the Son when He bore sin. This is a category error; Habakkuk is making a poetic lament, not a doctrinal declaration of divine incapacity. The verse is rhetorical, the prophet is confused as to why God appears to tolerate the wicked, despite His holiness. If we were to take Joe’s interpretation literally, then:
God could not see Adam after the Fall, coz Adam sinned
God could not look at Israel in her rebellion coz Israel sinned (Exodus 32)
God could not be present in a sinful world coz we have sinned (Psalm 139:7-12)
And yet, God is both omniscient and omnipresent. He sees all, he knows all, and saves sinners while they are in their sin (Romans 5:8) To claim that the Father “could not look upon the Son during atonement” is to suggest a temporary suspension of divine omniscience or presence.
4. I have explained it before, I’m explaining it now, once again.
**Christ did not “become sin” ontologically
To claim “Jesus..became sin…”
This likely stems from 2 Cor 5:21
“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us…”
But to interpret it literally, that Jesus became sin itself is a misreading. If u read the greek bible, ur confusion will be cleared as the Greek phrase is ἁμαρτία (hamartia), which contextually means sin offering.
Calvin, Chrysostom and Athanasius all agree, this doesn’t mean Christ became sinful or sin personified, but rather bore sin judicially, as a substitutionary offering, remaining perfectly righteous
There is a perfect quote from John Calvin which clears all confusion.
“He was made a sin offering, not made sinful.” – John Calvin
there is a difference between sin offering and sin and if u want to discuss than, the just mention me I will discuss that too, if the difference between sin and sin offering is not clearly evident from just reading levitcus and exodus and the whole of the bible.
To claim otherwise is to violate the integrity of Christ’s person, threatening the sinlessness of the Lamb of God (1 Peter 1:19 and Hebrews 4:15) and thus compromising the sufficiency of the atonement.
Next topic
The Cry “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” is not a statement of ontological separation, and refer to the meaning of ontology I gave before if your not familiar with this word “ontology”
This verse of
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” – Matthew 27:46
THis must be interpreted within the context of Psalm 22, which Christ is quoting. The psalm begins with anguish but ends with unshaken trust and vindication as:
“He has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted… He has not hidden His face from him, but has heard.” – Psalm 22:24
Jesus is not declaring ontological abandonment here, He is identifying with human despair under judgement, fulfilling prophecy, and expressing the emotional agony of bearing wrath, not a metaphysical separation from the Godhead
As I said before, God is Trinity, and its eternal, indivisible, and immutable, and it will never change, even for a nanosecond, no matter what answers and opposition are given.
Let’s go to the MOST important point
Jesus never ceased to be in union with the Father, even at the cross, and was never separated, not even for a second
As in
“For in Him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily.”– Colossians 2:9
“The Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” – John 14:10–11
Even on the cross, the fullness of the Godhead was present in Christ. Even in death, the divine union was never suspended. To imply otherwise is (I’m not judging anyone, and don’t get me wrong, I’m sorry but this is what i learnt) similar to the arguments Nestorius made, because he separated the divine and human nature of Christ. Can @Who-me pls clarify this quote? i didn’t understand what it means, I’m just learning. This quote is pretty confusing, pls clarify this my friend.
. But the Council of Chalcedon affirmed that
“The same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, acknowledged in two natures, unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably…”
From what i understand from that statement and the quote as a whole of
What i can give as a counter is
Trinity is not ‘a thing’ it is one God, in three co-equal, co-eternal persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit
I’m waiting for your clarification on this quote, because saying
“God and the Spirit do not have physical bodies” is true if I take it in the literal sense, but
It risks making Jesus less divine, as He has a body
It may suggest spiritual is not physical, it’s wrong, because this will imply the Incarnate Logos is excluded from Godhead.
Perichoresis is a theological term. When u read the bible, u get to know, the Father, Son and Spirit are in eternal communion. Not even for a split second can anything disturb this equilibrium, even if it be Jesus taking human flesh, the equilibrium is still maintained, even at the time when Jesus said “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?”
Then
During The Atonment, it didn’t only include the sacrifice of the Son, but rather ALL the three Persons are active in the atonement
The Father sends the Son (John 3:16)
The Son offers Himself willingly (Hebrews 9:14)
The Spirit sustains and empowers Him (Hebrews 9:14)
If there were even a momentary fracture in the Trinity during the cross, then the atonement would be invalid and salvation would collapse, but praise God, the Trinity is Not vulnerable to emotional schism, temporal separation or metaphyscial rupture, as I said before, the Trinity is eternal, indivisible and immutable.
Pls clarify so I may get a better understanding @Joe and @Who-me, but pls read my answers, even if it may be too long, but it takes quite a lot to answer such theological questions.
There is a principle in healing.
Feelings are information, pure amd simple. It is the language of our nervous system.
Feelings inform our lives as we experience life. Pain tells us something is threatening, to refrain. Pleasure tells us something is beneficial, to pursue. Hunger tells us we must eat. Satiation tells us we are full. A basic guidamce system for all physical life forms.
Joy occurs when we are flourishing, sorrow occurs when we are crumpling. There is a physicality to our feelings, an association between the feeling and our body, the state of our being.
Fight or flight is connected to this system. It is activated when something feels threatening. Our body ramps up the production of stimulants within us. Fear encourages us to flee, rage encourages us to fight. And through this, we are inclined to survive.
A beautiful system from a Wise Creator.
Since at least the times of the Greeks, it was believed that sickness would manifest if feelings were not experienced, inhabited, processed, and released. We have a modern day understanding that emotions can become lodged in the body, and stifle vitality.
Because of this, theater was considered medicine. Comedies and dramas were meant to provoke laughter and crying respectively in order to purge the body of stagnant emotions. So healing could take place.
In the experience of a trauma, however, a person can enter into a state of shock, causing them to disassociate from the feelings of the body. Extensive or extreme physical injuries disable our ability to feel pain when it reaches a threshold. The same is true with emotional pain.
Another component from a Merciful God.
If a person is about to die, this makes it eaaier to let go of life. Endorphins are triggered that flood our minds, including DMT that is stored up in our brains for this exact moment, all to create an incredibly blissful state as we let go of this life for whatever comes next when we leave our bodies.
If the trauma is survived, a person must take the time to reconnect with the body. The event must be acknowledged. The feelings that we could not feel then when we dissociated are stored in the body. And part of the healing process involves examining those feelings, experiencing them, and letting them go. Making peace, forgiving, releasing- this leads to healing.
In this way, we become unstuck and can move forward with our lives. Otherwise the past continues to have a hold on us, defining us, informing all of our behaviors and reactions, drawing us back to it, draining our energies and abilities. You become a prisoner to it until you stop struggling with it, make peace, and let it go.
Christ, fully God AND fully human, suffered trauma. Rejection, judgement, humiliation, execution as one who had committed crimss. He saw his mother witnessing him die this way.. His followers abandoned him. And the One he was closest to- the Father- turned away.
What is the normal human reaction to all of that? What does one feel? Anxiety? Fear? Dread? Anger or Rage? Shame? Guilt?
What kind of hurt did Christ feel? Betrayal? Injustice? Wronged? Alone?
Was he tempted to withold forgiveness before he said, Forgive them Father for they know not what they do?
Regardless of what he knew would happen, his body felt the pain. He had to process it. Release it. Like any human.
Perhaps when he cried, "Father, why have you foraaken me? " that was the peak of the pain. He was acknowledging the trauma. He was expressing a feeling to let it go, to not hang on to it. Because he knew the truth, the reality beyond the pain. He let go of that moment of suffering in order to move into the Glory that would follow.
Just a thought.
Another thought is, We cannot pray the trauma away. The horror, the tragedy- once it has occurred, once it has left its mark, it is not enough to never acknowledge it again. We must face what happened. But we do not face it alone.
We have a Savior who went through it, alone, so we would never have to be alone in our healing. He knows the wound, and can guide us to our freedom.
Say less. The bullet points just got baptized and buried. Sass is resurrected, and it’s bringing the thunder.
Samuel_23, you’re clearly excited, brimming with your Moltmann and your mysticism and your “let’s all experience the divine abandonment together” vibes. But let me stop you before this turns into a TED Talk at a theology club sleepover.
Yes, Jesus quotes Psalm 22. No, it’s not a seminary Easter egg for the liturgically curious. It’s prophetic fulfillment, not poetic flair. He’s not signaling theological ambiguity—He’s declaring victory from the depths. That cry wasn’t confusion. It was conquest in camouflage.
“Why have You forsaken Me?”
Answer: So you wouldn’t be.
But then you wander into Moltmann’s fog machine and try to baptize God the Father having an emotional breakdown, the Son being ontologically abandoned, and the Spirit apparently playing divine marriage counselor while the Trinity cries in three-part harmony.
Stop it. That’s not theology. That’s cosmic soap opera.
God does not suffer in His essence. That’s not a “maybe,” that’s orthodoxy 101. God is impassible. Immutable. Holy. You can’t sneak feelings into the Godhead like smuggling juice boxes into a movie theater.
Jesus suffered. Yes. But He suffered in His humanity, not in some cosmic identity crisis inside the Trinity. The cross is not God abandoning God—it’s the sinless Lamb bearing the sin of the world. Judicially. Substitutionally. Not metaphorically, not mystically, but actually.
“He was pierced for our transgressions… the chastisement that brought us peace was upon Him.”
– Isaiah 53:5
Moltmann can have his “divine therapy session.” I’ll take Scripture.
You said, “How can God be forsaken by God?” Great question. You almost had it. Here’s the answer:
He wasn’t.
Jesus, in His humanity, bore the covenant curse—forsakenness as the Second Adam, standing in our place. That’s the Gospel, not a Trinitarian tug-of-war.
And this whole “Orthodox vs Reformed vs Barthian vs mystical vs Moltmannian” buffet you laid out like a theology tasting menu? Cute. But here’s a wild idea:
Let the Bible speak.
Let it shatter your categories. Let it define the terms. Because unless your system bows to Scripture, it’s just another golden calf with a master’s degree.
So here’s your take-home, my dear theological explorer:
The cross was not divine disintegration.
It was divine deliverance.
God didn’t fracture—He fulfilled.
And Jesus didn’t scream into the void.
He declared from the pit:
“The rescue is here. The curse is breaking. The serpent’s head is cracking. Watch the tomb.”
Now that’s theology worth crying over.
Not confusion. Worship.
Ah, Samuel_23, you’re back at it again—unrolling another scroll of poetic Greek and patristic flair like you’re auditioning for a theology slam poetry night.
Katabasis. Kenosis. Gregory Nazianzen. I see you, and yes, the words are rich. They hum with meaning. But before we start lighting incense to abstract concepts, let’s make one thing clear:
Jesus didn’t descend so we could get misty-eyed over Greek vocabulary. He descended to destroy something.
“The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.”
—1 John 3:8
Let’s start with your Katabasis tour.
Yes, Jesus descended—to death, to sorrow, to the grave, to Hades itself. But He didn’t go on a sightseeing trip into despair. He didn’t just feel the silence of God—He went into the darkness and kicked the door open from the inside. That’s not just solidarity with human pain. That’s cosmic conquest.
“He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in Him.”
—Colossians 2:15
So when you say “He experienced the silence of God”, slow your theological roll. Jesus was not confused, lost, or emotionally unraveling. He was fulfilling prophecy, bearing the curse, and proclaiming the victory to come. That cry from the cross? It wasn’t a whimper—it was a war cry wrapped in Psalm 22.
Now let’s talk Kenosis—Philippians 2:7.
Yes, Jesus “emptied Himself.” But emptied of what, Samuel? Not His divinity. Not His deity. He emptied Himself of status, not substance. He didn’t stop being God. He veiled glory with flesh, not traded it for weakness.
When you start saying Jesus assumed our sense of abandonment to redeem it, you’re walking the theological high wire with no net. Did He assume every part of human nature? Yes.
Did He become sin (2 Cor. 5:21)? Yes.
But did He ever become unbelieving, or spiritually severed from the Father? Absolutely not.
Because if He was truly God-forsaken, ontologically abandoned, then guess what? The Trinity just shattered. And that’s not salvation. That’s heresy with a halo.
Now about your Nazianzen quote:
“What is not assumed is not healed.”
Amen. And what is assumed must be purified by His perfect obedience—not dragged into divine dysfunction.
So yes, He bore our griefs. Yes, He carried our sorrows.
But don’t turn the cross into a group therapy session for divine insecurity. It was the execution ground of justice and mercy colliding. He didn’t feel abandoned just to show empathy—He bore the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:13) to redeem those under it.
Let’s keep the Greek, love the Fathers, quote the saints—but never let them outshine the clarity of Scripture.
Christ’s descent wasn’t just a feel-good theological drama.
It was a divine demolition job on sin, death, and hell.
And when He said, “Why have You forsaken Me?”, it wasn’t so you could relate—it was so you could be rescued.
That’s not poetry.
That’s power.
Tillman, brother… that was beautiful.
You didn’t just offer a thought—you laid out a tapestry. Woven with threads of theology, psychology, embodied truth, and, dare I say, holy insight. I see the care in your words. You’re not tossing theories; you’re testifying from the ground floor of human pain—and divine presence.
And you’re absolutely right: our God did not save us from afar with sterile detachment. He stepped into the blood, the betrayal, the abandonment—and yes, the trauma. Christ didn’t hover above the human experience like a divine drone. He inhabited it. Fully. Not as a method actor, but as the true Second Adam, recapitulating our pain so He could redeem it all the way down.
You said it perfectly: “We have a Savior who went through it, alone, so we would never have to be alone in our healing.” Amen. Preach that.
Now, where I’d want to gently offer some calibration—not correction, just sharpening—is here:
When Jesus cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”—He wasn’t working through a delayed trauma response. That wasn’t catharsis; it was prophetic declaration and substitutionary weight.
He wasn’t just naming the pain so He could let it go. He was bearing the curse so we could be let go. That moment wasn’t therapeutic expression—it was judicial transaction. The wrath of God was not just felt—it was poured out.
And yet, your insight still stands strong: that moment was fully felt. The suffering wasn’t abstract. The pain wasn’t numbed by divinity. It scorched nerve endings and pierced the soul. And in that, you’ve reminded us of something sacred:
Christ knows what it means to be undone.
He knows what it’s like to be gasping in grief, abandoned by friends, flooded by fear, betrayed by kin, judged unjustly, and pierced—physically and emotionally. And He sanctifies every part of that experience by enduring it in perfection.
So yes—our trauma isn’t too much for Him. He’s walked that road. And He doesn’t just pull us out of our pain like a rescuer in gloves—He steps into it with us, wounds and all, and leads us through.
You’re right—we don’t pray it away. We pray through it, with the One who cried, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death.”
Thank you for bringing this layer to the table. It’s not theology that floats above life—it’s truth that touches the scar. And that’s the kind of gospel that actually heals.
Much love, brother. Keep sharing. You’re speaking life.
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