Lots of folks have a quick answer for this question. “Free will” is the culprit.
But really, free will is a property of rational persons that allows them moral agency, but it doesn’t, and can’t cause anything.
This is sort of the final rung on the theodicy ladder, which unfortunately doesn’t get much attention. God created us, and He called His creation “very good”. So what goes wrong?
Why can’t we blame God for our sin?
People sin because Adam and Eve have sinned by rebelling in a self-centered way against God. They think that they can run their own lives instead of God, and they pass their rebellion on to the succeeding generations, @Pater15.
God allows them to go astray but doesn’t cause their evil choice. Therefore, he is not responsible for their sin and the sins that all of us do. Instead, he gives them a promise about a future Deliverer in the curse that he gives to Satan. Faith in that future Rescuer, who will have divine power that will defeat Satan, will save anyone:
Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
Adam sinned and his sin has spoiled all of us, not with his sin but with a bias towards sin.
Hello Bruce!
I think I’m asking about a more personal and granular cause. As in, I remember distinctly a time when I was personally under great temptation to do something that I knew was wrong, and I knew God would not be pleased if I did it. And I knew the Bible, and had been a believer many years by then.
And guess what? I did it anyway. And I don’t think I’m the only one who has ever done that.
I wasn’t feeling rebellious, or angry at God, or anything of that sort. I will say that at that moment, I felt utterly powerless to stop myself. I just did it.
So, what the heck? Was I just broken, or weak, or hopelessly reprobate?
What was the difference between me, and a friend of mine, Joe, who I will swear never did a single sin from the day he got saved. I mean this dude was all about Jesus, morning noon and night, and he was the happiest guy I ever met.
With reference to God’s responsibility, is there any? Satan seems to think so. He has this conversation with Eve, where he says “Did God really say…?” And “God knows that when you eat of it, you will be like Him (which God REALLY doesn’t like anyone who wants to be like Him), knowing good and evil.” I think Satan’s complaint is that he is exactly what God made. How can He find fault?
And he spends his time trying to prove that humans are as bad as he is, also because we are exactly what He made, only it’s worse because we are also made in His image. Satan isn’t stupid. He thinks he has a valid argument.
Does he?
So here we are, saddled with the guilt of “original sin”, thrust into a world of temptations, apparently enslaved to “the flesh”, and then God hides Himself while we fail at trying to work it out. Does any of this sound familiar?
So a Christian guy (who knows better) wakes up in the morning, and right away runs into some sort of temptation that he gives in to. He sins.
My question is, what just happened? Why did he do it?
Okay, here is what I have learned from the scriptures, and from 54 years of study as a Christian, and 66 years of life, and around 15 years of focused discussion with learned people on this issue. That doesn’t at all mean that I think I’m right - end of discussion. In fact I’m hoping for lively discussion for the purpose of further refinement. And I hope that at least one other person is helped toward living a wholesome, peaceful life that pleases God.
First off, and categorically, God is in no wise causally responsible for our sins, or for any evil at all for that matter. And I think that we’ll see why as we go along.
God did create us. That’s the truth, and He is responsible for what He created. We know He called His creation “very good”. So, our challenge then is to come to understand more fully what He created, and why He created us the way that we are.
We see this theme throughout the scriptures, both explicitly and implicitly. We also know that it’s true from experience. It’s an undercurrent of all of our hopes and dreams and striving and competing. Nobody dreams of clawing their way to mediocrity. We all want to be appreciated, and admired. Revered and honored. We want to be special in the eyes of others, and we want to be loved.
When the disciples were arguing with each other about who among them was the greatest, our Lord did not rebuke them for their desire to be great. Rather, He gave them the legitimate scale for measuring greatness, in God’s kingdom. God’s scale for measuring greatness is very different from ours.
Here’s what we do. We get out of the shower and look in a mirror, and we say to ourselves “this is me.” Some are born beautiful and some are born healthy and strong and some are born with a powerful brain, comedic wit, and fancy dance steps. They can sing like nobody’s business. They create fabulous pieces of art that moves their observers to tears. Maybe they have eloquent oratory skills, genius dimensional thinking. Whatever it is. We might call them “great-making” properties
Those are the people that we compare ourselves to, and call them great. The vast majority of us look in the mirror and see someone who is plainly average. Even those who have been most physically or mentally blessed seem to find some major flaw that others don’t even notice.
So we go about, calculating in our minds, and striving with the capabilities that we DO have, to find some sort of satisfaction for this drive that we all understand, and we all know it’s there.
We must be respected. By everyone. If not by everyone, at least by our peer group. If not by a peer groups, at least by our families. if not by our families, at least by ourselves. And if we observe ourselves, and see nothing that anyone can respect (not even ourselves), we just give up completely, try to get whatever we want/need by whatever means possible, and say to hell with everybody else. That’s how we get prostitutes, drug addicts, and school shooters, etc.
It’s also how we get fightings and disputes in our churches, fabulously wealthy next to starvation poverty, and big shots and show-offs. Misguided desire for greatness. We are guilty of those sins as well.
God’s plan was different, and Jesus enunciated it. If you want to be great in God’s kingdom, learn to be the servant of all. When we look at all of ourselves, how could we believe anything other than that God is so totally unfair? I didn’t even get the fancy dance steps, much less the genius brainpower or the bulging biceps. I totally lost on the genetic lottery, we might say to ourselves.
But anyone and every can serve, in some way. And God is perfectly fair. He expects us to maximize what we’ve been given, not meet some standard that wasn’t given. And we can count on God to enable us to achieve well beyond our given capacities.
God’s word is our standard of greatness. It’s open to anyone. And the honor we receive comes from Him. So we can firmly believe that God did a very good thing when He created each of us with our drive for greatness as a fundamental property of being human. When He created you, He created a good thing, in every case.
Your friend who APPEARED free of sin, @Pater15, still sinned. Either he hid it well or he had inner sins like impatience, impulsiveness, and lust that God enabled him to control but not conquer. Perhaps, he had the worst sin, pride, that shows that sin, at its core, is really self-centeredness in our inner and outer lives, not just actions.
No, all Christians sin, but the difference is that the Holy Spirit has given us by grace the new birth and the ability to fight the old, sinful nature that remains in us. However, God has also given us the new, Spirit-influenced nature.
So, how can we overcome that sinful nature and replace it with the new nature, which is a lifelong task? Obviously, we must pray persistently for the victory of Jesus’ resurrection power to conquer the old nature’s qualities with new-nature ones. The clearest biblical presentation of that truth is Colossians 3:
Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Col 3:7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
Col 3:13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
Col 3:14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Please notice that in verse 1, Paul says that if we have risen with Christ in the power of his resurrection, as the chapter continues, we then must reject the old nature’s “clothes” and put on the new ones, that is, with qualities we need to “wear.”
Just to add brother @Bruce_Leiter
Paul is explicit that the believer is called to crucify the flesh, to put to death the body of sin, and to reckon the old self as dead with Christ. Here are the key passages where he uses this language.
Romans 6:6–11
“Our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin… Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Romans 8:13
“If you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” The verb here, thanatoute (put to death), is active and ongoing, meaning believers continually mortify sinful actions.
Galatians 2:20
“I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.”
Galatians 5:24
“Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” Notice Paul makes this definitive: to belong to Christ is to have nailed the old nature to the cross.
Colossians 3:5
“Put to death (nekrosate) therefore what is earthly in you, sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.” Paul commands the believer to decisively treat these sinful impulses as dead, because in verse 3 he already said, “you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.”
Practical thrust
Paul never describes the Spirit’s work as knocking us down in ecstasy, but as empowering us to crucify lust, pride, and self. To be Spirit-filled is not to be “slain in the Spirit,” but to live as one already slain with Christ, daily putting to death the deeds of the body and walking in resurrection life.
This can preach up a storm!
J.
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
I had a mentor/teacher who was dogmatic that if a Christian person suffered any difficulties, any business reversals, any tragedies, any illnesses, any “evil” at all in their lives, that it was always because they had some hidden sin. Job was a challenge for him, given God’s own description. So he seized on Job’s lamentation “That which I greatly feared has come upon me!” So, according to him, because Job was expressing some fear of losing all the good things in his life, God punished him by letting Satan wipe out his substance, kill all of his children, and beat him into the dirt.
I’m sure Joe had an occasional sin. At the same time, I would in no wise criticize a servant to his master. Joe was God’s man, and his joy, simply being a friend of Jesus, was a pleasure to be around.
Thanks to you guys, each for listing the admonitions and instructions! It leads to the second fundamental property of humans that God created.
And I realize of course that rational people process information in accordance with their commitments to that rationality, but even that is a choice. Some folks actually do choose to believe that the earth is flat. That’s a real thing. So the magnitude of evidence doesn’t necessarily correspond to a persons willingness to accept a certain truth.
We can describe a true proposition, or a true premise, or a true belief as one that most closely corresponds to reality. But there are people who deny that as well. It has become fashionable to believe that individuals each are entitled to their own truth.
Those of us who are participating in this thread (I’ll venture to guess) are united in our brotherhood of belief that the God of the universe lives, that the Bible is God’s true word, and that the Spirit of Truth resides in each believer, and that our conscience can be a gift from God as a useful guide. But we might vary on this thing or that with regard to proper balanced interpretation for our implementation of that truth in our lives.
Atheists these days make much of God’s hiddenness. That God chooses to reveal Himself in a measured way. I don’t want to stray too far from the focus of the thread, (I’m a big believer in thread integrity). But they would say that it would be a whole lot easier to believe the truth if God Himself made it a bit more clear to everyone. And then out comes the “what-abouts”. Like, what about Eve (she was ignorant), and what about the tribes in Africa, and what about people who can’t read, and so on.
Nevertheless.
God has created humans with the capacity and the responsibility to choose what we want to believe, and to choose wisely. The reason that people sin (both believers and unbelievers) is that they make bad choices about what they want to believe. And it’s intrinsically tied to our pursuit of greatness.
Maslow called it a “hierarchy of needs”, that reaches its zenith at “self-actualization”. I’m not at all surprised at a secular recognition of a spiritual reality, and its progression. It’s just that it’s upside down.
When we believe every single word of God, from the Bible, and from proper authoritative sources, and from His Spirit communing with our Spirit, and from our own conscience that’s properly grounded in the truth, we will find that our sin problem begins to vanish. It starts with a COMMITMENT to CHOOSE to BELIEVE God’s WORD in all its forms. This is commendable and honorable. It puts us on a path to greatness in God’s kingdom. And then we have to put in the work, ha ha. Im pretty sure my buddy Joe could have quoted the entire 3rd chapter of Colossians by heart ha ha. Bible study was definitely a joyful labor of love for him.
God is certainly right and justified to have created humans beings with a fundamental capacity of choice to believe what they choose to believe. In fact, it’s the element that makes our choices praiseworthy from the Father.
When we sin, it’s because we don’t believe every word of God.
More expansion coming on the third point.
PS. Upon reread, I hope no one thought for a second I was implying ANYONE (especially Bruce) was playing devil’s advocate. No no no no no. Not my take at all. So far we are in 100% agreement!
@Pater5
Thanx for your thoughtful testimony on this topic. I can candidly say I have not personally labored over the question, per’se. I have read your responses and, coming at this fresh, I’m struggling to understand your POV, specifically your "second fundamental property of humans”:
An interesting aspect about your statement, in its directness, is I have been in a protracted (off forum) conversation for several months with a person who writes very much like you do in style and structure, claims no religious devotion, and takes-up the exact opposite hypothesis; that no one can choose what they believe. (He is even publishing a book on this theory; due to hit the shelves this fall.) His postulate is that beliefs “develop” in the human mind, neurologically, growing organically out of available credible evidence, and not from any conscious determination to manufacture them. His problem with Christianity is their adamancy that a person must “choose” to believe something unbelievable, and as hard as he may try, he cannot force himself to believe something, even if he “wants” it to be true. I have had to agree with him, in principle. He strikes me as a sincere man, not intentionally hiding his true feelings, and leans heavily on the data that is “scientifically credible” (to me personally, that is a bit of a misnomer), and has difficulty putting weight on evidence that cannot be satisfactorily verified. As you said:
To suggest to him that God enables a person to believe the unbelievable only strikes him as “unfairness” in God. It paints a picture of an unjust God; one who sets the bar impossibly high, and then capriciously helps a few undeserving souls over it. I am trying to help him in this area, and so far he is allowing me to do that (to some degree).
I understand Maslow, and his “hierarchy of needs” that you mention, but I’m not sure how you are integrating that into your argument that these needs contribute to the reason people sin. I need more clarification here, s’il vous plait.
I hear you when you state:
And I’m sure there is a connection that runs from “sinning” to “rejecting the word of God”; but experience leads me to believe the connection is not as direct as this statement may imply. I think if we are ever going to approach a satisfactory answer to this question, our journey will necessarily take us past all the various sins, and up to the very foot of the mountain of SIN. SIN being that “nature” of fallen Man; the broken “imago dei” that has become unlike God; the essential and unconscious part of man that having died, became the opposing counterpart to “Life”. SIN being the fountain head of superfluous sins.
This is an interesting topic.
Thanx for your inspired thoughts.
KP
Oh, BTW, I just reread my post (above) and I can see how it might come across a bit “snotty”, especially to one who is acustomed to conversing in that arena. Sincerely, I appreciate all you have said, and I have no “snottiness” intended. Sometimes I am slow to understand, so I’m just looking for some enlargement on your thoughts.) Please excuse my digital tone, if it sounds too curt.
KP
Thank you as well for your kind words!
No worries on the tone - I’ve adjusted my “snark detector” ha ha. Atheists follow a very predictable pattern. Snarky condescension to gasping incredulity to feckless ad hominem attacks followed by desertion of the conversation.
In my opinion, your friend has made an a priori commitment to metaphysical naturalism. In his mind, it’s not possible for anything to exist that isn’t natural, and explainable/testable by scientific means.
If he is genuinely sincere, there is hope. For example, science has proven that the universe expanded into existence in a matter of micro-seconds, out of nothing, with no cause. This is utterly irrational, but the metaphysical naturalist commitment sort of forces them to accept it.
And there are a number of additional arguments (ontological argument, contingency argument, fine-tuning argument, information argument) that atheists have no answer for. They turn their comfortable rationality into bald irrationality. And they have to make a choice.
More to come - busy day. Thanks for your thoughtful response and great questions! I look forward to addressing them!
I completely agree, @Johann, and it wouldn’t be a destructive tornado either! 
Speaking of Mazlow’s hierarchy, it goes like this: “feed me, protect me, accept me, call me the greatest - I AM the GOAT (greatest of all time). Each step focuses on the physical and psychological needs of our “flesh”. And I don’t know if I’m completely sold on the whole concept of a semi-mysterious “sin nature”. It seems to me that God is talking about our physical bodies, that began to die as soon as Adam and Eve sinned. They were cast from the garden, where all of their hierarchy needs had been fully met, and their actualization consisted of their daily communion with God.
Now they have to deal with scarcity (the ground was cursed) and with bad weather, and with animals trying to eat them, and with other dangers as well. God told them to go out into the world and be fruitful and multiply, and to cover the earth - and subdue it. By “subdue it”, I think He meant “stop it from killing you.” Imagine being dropped into a wilderness with nothing. I doubt any of us would last a month. For people thrust into that context, lying, cheating, stealing, and worse maybe didn’t seem like a bad idea, when the pressure is on. They’re just trying to keep their hierarchy of needs caught up.
When Cain offered a faulty sacrifice, his countenance was downcast. And God spoke to him - “hey, why so downcast? If you do well, you will be lifted up. But sin is crouching at your door - its desire is to control you. BUT YOU MUST MASTER IT.” Believe Me. Make a good choice. The sin crouching at his door was to not believe the God who made him, and to attempt to get his own satisfaction, at the expense of the life of his brother.
The hedonist Callicles called it “his cursed belly” that drove him to endless striving for pleasure and satisfaction that could never be realized.
We have this body, and this face, and the brain, and the eyes, and the feet and the hands, and yes, the belly - a temporary context of meat/bones/blood that we move through life in. It has its demands that are unrelenting. So we calculate our chances and we take our shots. And sometimes people get hurt. That’s our flesh.
We choose the magnitude of moral component that we find necessary in our struggle for actualization. What we believe is an acceptable degree of compromise.
Here’s where the rubber meets the road with regard to why people sin. They sin because they believe that the sinful thing that they are contemplating is going to benefit them the most, given the precise situational context they are currently in.
The secular world calls it “psychological egoism.”
Your friend @KPuff is committed to metaphysical naturalism. If you were to drill down on that, he might agree that EVERYTHING in life is determined by forces outside of himself, just like his beliefs. That at that point of explosive singularity when the universe came into existence, fundamental particles were set into motion with specific forces and trajectories. Those particles bounced around off of each other, and came together and split apart etc, until the stars were formed and planets, and elements, and compounds and eventually his parents. And he was born as the utterly determined eventual product of those initial particle actions. That everything since then was determined, and continues to be determined. COuldn’t have happened any other way. Another irrational belief of atheists.
But we do have choices, to believe what we choose to believe. That the very best thing we can do in our own interest as we strive for significance, is to believe God. Take Him at His word. Never let that thought leave our minds.
We get saved by faith, we live by faith, we leave sin behind by the same faith, we love God by faith. That’s the very best thing we can do in our own interest in any and every situation. That’s what we’re here for. Get actualization first - trust God with everything. Believe His word - every one. Then let Him provide the needs. His promises are sure.
I was brought up in a church which taught us that “real Christians” don’t sin. Never. Ever. But if they did, they lost their salvation. and were bound for hell. And I thought I was a terrible person because I knew I sinned. So to try to avoid hell, I “got” born again, again and again. Furthermore, I, personally, witnessed some of those pastors who claimed not sin sinning because they sinned against me!
Whaaat @Raina, no no no
I understand your experience, but what you were taught does not align with the apostolic faith. The claim that a “real Christian never sins” and if he does, he is no longer saved, reflects neither Scripture nor the consensus of the Fathers, but rather a moralistic and juridical distortion that easily collapses into despair.
In Orthodox theology, sin is not a sudden expulsion from grace but a wound in the soul that requires healing. As St. John Chrysostom repeatedly emphasizes (Homily 8 on Repentance and the Church), the Church is a hospital, not a courtroom, and repentance is the remedy, not proof of disqualification. Even St. Paul, after his conversion, describes himself as the “chief of sinners” (1 Tim. 1:15). If the apostle himself could acknowledge sin yet remain in Christ, then the “perfectionism” you were taught is simply unsustainable.
Furthermore, the Fathers insist that salvation is not a one-time juridical transaction, lost with every fault, but a dynamic process of theosis—union with God through grace. St. Maximus the Confessor explains that the Christian life is a perpetual ascent (Ambigua 7), where falls are inevitable but repentance restores us. The Christian, in Orthodox understanding, is not defined by never sinning but by never ceasing to rise again through repentance. (That’s why we say salvation is a process, not one-time event).
Your experience of pastors who claimed sinlessness yet sinned against you only confirms the flaw of that doctrine. The pretense of sinlessness is itself condemned by Scripture: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). The Orthodox Church reads this not as a license to sin but as a sober reminder that humility and repentance are the ongoing mark of genuine discipleship.
Thus, the Orthodox position is clear: salvation is not lost with every stumble, nor secured by self-declared sinlessness, but lived out as a continual synergy between divine grace and human freedom (Phil. 2:12–13). The Christian path is one of falling and rising, being healed through confession, prayer, and the Eucharist, until we are conformed to Christ.
Sorry you had this experience. I hope that you are able, today, to believe that.what you were taught in that church was not true, deep down in your soul. To know that for certain.
Some immature people may think they are doing God a favor by teaching such things, even though they know that the standard they teach, they are not able to keep.
We can see the potential for disaster if a person says to himself in his heart “I can sin today, and just get saved again tomorrow”. If he truly believes that, he will never stop sinning in abundance.
When I say that we can leave sin behind, I’m not saying that we will never sin, permanently. That won’t come until gloryland. But what we can do is break the hold and control that sin has over us. Let the love that God has shown us overwhelm our tendency to selfishness for its own sake.
It’s not instant. We become quite reliant on some of our habits, even though they hurt us or others. Choose to believe God and fall in love with getting to know Him - a faithful, loving Father.
I hear you; you make some profound points; concepts I’m going to continue to consider and weigh. It seems auspicious that I am in these two contrasting conversations right now. Not that I hold both points of view equally, I surely don’t, but that The Lord is exposing me to, and helping me to understand these two very different world views at the same time. I am being stretched, and I’m wondering about the limits of my elasticity. I am a simple man; I have not studied the great thinkers academically. I make my novice attempt at understanding the basic principles and tenants of philosophy, metaphysics, science, and the various forms of theology, but personally I rely on The Word of God, and His POV (humbly, as best as I can discern it, through His Son, and with His assistance from His Spirit). I am still very much the student, and do not profess to be a teacher (although I am often thrust into that position unintentionally).
As I stated previously, I understand the popular tenets of Maslow, but I also weigh his theories in his personal context; ideas coming from an immigrant Jew, whose family fled Ukrainian persecution. Addressing human needs was more than just academic theory to him, I’m sure, but more likely a deeply internal (visceral) way in which he neurologically processed his own family history. (I may be wrong). Maslow developed his world view from a monotheistic basis, but still without the assistance of Jesus, (as far as we know) and without the indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit. That does not make him wrong, but it does give us a context from which to best understand his proposals. Maslow’s trajectory for man was for him to become the best version of himself, (which he defines as the freedom to be creative, maximizing one’s potential, and experiencing “peak experiences” of joy and satisfaction), but only through the necessary processes of meeting the lower three (or four) tiers of needs.
The problem I run into with Maslow, for the Christian, is that Jesus taught His disciples a new, and very different trajectory (in this mortal life anyway), he taught them a trajectory that aimed at poverty, service, submission, obscurity, and menial living. He taught these principles both in word, and by example. “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." (Matt. 8:20), etc.
Jesus taught His disciples to not “worry” about the lowest tier “Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.” (Matt. 10:29-31). Jesus taught His disciples to disregard the second tier (safety) “So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.” (Acts 5:41), etc. Jesus taught His disciples a new paradigm of Love, and His supernatural providence of a super-human ability to truly love as God loves, with an almost apparent disregard for yourself. Jesus avoided celebrity, recognition, and even though He possessed the strength to still storms, remediate lifelong illness, raise some from mortal death, and feed thousands from scraps, He didn’t use that strength to ease His own life, or the lives of His disciples (that includes you and I), but rather promised them a sacrificial life of suffering, being hated, and violent persecution. And regarding self-actualization, Jesus regularly taught His disciples, in the kingdom of God, the first shall be last and the last shall be first; not “self”, but Heavenly-actualization” of sorts.
I’m thinking more about this statement you made:
I hear you, but I’m going to have to think about this a bit more. This is the first time I have encountered this idea. I understand your hesitation: “I don’t know if I’m completely sold”. This is a difficult, but important concept from which to hear from God. I’m going to listen a while longer before I comment on this idea.
I hear your definition of “psychological egoism.”, and I assume it is correct for the secular world to understand the reality of “wrong” in this way. But you inadvertently bring up another question, or actually split our topic into two questions: (1) Why do people sin? and (2) Why do Christian’s sin? I am now contemplating that the two questions may share some commonalities, but may not share a single answer.
I understand your statement:
And I agree with you here. Our own interest being met is definitely the case, but in Christ, self-interest ceases to be our primary motivation (in my experience). Agape love inspires me to be primarily concerned for the Glory of God (God’s interests) as He is reciprocally and sacrificially demonstrating His Holy concern for mine.
I appreciate your thoughts. I’m still thinking about them, and growing from them.
In Jesus
KP
P.S. When replying directly to me, please use the grey “Reply” button at the bottom of my post. When replying to the group, you can use the blue “Reply” button at the bottom of the thread. The only difference is that I get notified of a direct reply, and the thread keeps track of the conversation. Either way, everyone gets to read everything, it just keeps things neater.
Thanx
KP
Precisely my whole point with Maslow. His theories are perfectly upside down for the believer. They hold (for the most part) for the unbelievers and anyone “walking in the flesh”, but Jesus taught a whole new meaning for life.
This is the dichotomy that can cause confusion when considering the question - “do I sin because God made me this way?” God made us with certain properties, and He gives us the opportunity to be the greatest in His kingdom, when we choose to exercise those properties according to His plan.
@Pater15
I get it, now I understand you. If you said that before, I missed it. My bad. Thanx for the clarification.
KP
Yeah man, you nailed it right on the head. I think I was trailing off and didn’t make the point as clear as I could have! Again, thanks for your rich input. It’s a pleasure talking to you sir!
I would just add one caveat:
@KPuff “And I agree with you here. Our own interest being met is definitely the case, but in Christ, self-interest ceases to be our primary motivation (in my experience). Agape love inspires me to be primarily concerned for the Glory of God (God’s interests) as He is reciprocally and sacrificially demonstrating His Holy concern for mine.”
I think my point here is that God created us in such a way that we are fundamentally committed to our best interest. And it IS in our best interest to make our highest concern for the Glory of God, just as you say. It IS in our best interest to choose to take Him at His word. That’s where we find the peace of God that passes all understanding. Then we are able to exercise agape. It IS in our best interest to give ALL of our interests to Him. We are free to choose, uncoerced, and undetermined. And He made a way that is the very best possible, that we can choose His love, and enjoy our communion with Him and our Godly family forever. It’s a magnificent plan brother - He is a marvelous God!
Friends:
This is how I answer this question, from my current state of growth in Jesus:
“I will stand my watch, and set myself on the rampart, and watch to see what He will say to me, and what I will answer when I am corrected. “
Men of this world commit sin because they are spiritually dead. Biblical support for this idea is manifold. That which is dead is unlike the living God; a man of death does not display the image of The Living God, since God IS Life. Bearing the image of death is SIN in the very nature of man, because from birth the man of death does not do that for which he was created. (C.S. Lewis points to the etymology of the word “nature”: “Those who wish to go further back will notice that natura shares a common base with nasci (to be born); with the noun natus (birth)”: Studies in Words, 1960, Chapter 2, Nature)
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
A dead tree cannot produce good fruit; (Matt 7:10-19) a dead man cannot please God. (Heb 11:6) This condition manifests itself in actions and attitudes of the dead; actions and attitudes that are unlike God (sins). Sin brought about death, and death only produces more sin. Even a good man’s good works are tainted with sin, and are accounted as “filthy rags” before a Holy God (Isa. 64).
But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore, the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Why do people sin? People bearing the image of death sin because they can do no other. From the state of spiritual death even works that the world considers good are imperfect before God; unholy expressions of their “nature”.
Why do Christians Sin? Born from above, the Christian has been imputed with Life from above, Holy life, and with it the righteousness of Jesus The Christ. The new man does not sin because he bears the image of God. The new man is freed from the necessity to sin, but the old man still exists and is habitually tempted to continue in the old ways of death. Much of the New Testament admonition is to assist the new “born from above” person to grasp his new purpose, his new identity, and his new freedom so he consistently rejects the temptation to sin. This rejection of sin is testimonial, as the person walking in righteousness reflects the image of The Living God. But the flesh wars against the spirit, and at times fails to reject the destructive ways of death. This failure does not condemn the child of God, but it does convict him, and loving God the Father does correct him. The purpose of God’s correction is to transform the mind, to complete the work of sanctification, and to bring the image of God into clearer focus through the life of the saint.
The man walking in the flesh sins because he can do no other.
The man walking in the Spirit may sin, but is convicted, corrected, and sanctified for The Glory of God.
This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
KP