Romans 5:8 reminds us that Jesus died for us while we were still sinners—not after we cleaned up our lives. What kind of love does that take? Join the discussion in Crosswalk Forums. #Romans5v8#GraceUnfiltered#christianforums#crosswalkforums#forums#crosswalk#faithcommunity#faithforums
It’s easy to love someone who loves you back. But Romans 5:8 flips that upside down: “God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
He didn’t wait until we repented. He didn’t die for the polished, church-going version of us. He laid down His life while we were still rebellious, still unlovable, still uninterested. That’s not transactional love—it’s sacrificial love. And it’s staggering.
Why would Christ choose to die for people who wanted nothing to do with Him?
What does this say about the kind of love we’re called to show others?
“Jesus didn’t die for your cleaned-up version—He died for you in your mess.”
Because he was One with the Father, who sees and knows all things. And to the Father, nothing is hidden. Including what a person could be.
Because Christ knew what was in the heart.
Because he knew the love of the Father, the love that the Father has for us all. And Christ looked at us through that lens.
He could also see that humans were caught in the grip of something that they were helpless to defeat on their own. They know not what they do.
Christ was not met with complete resistance. He saw people being affected by His teachings. Amd that must have been encouraging. If one person listened and repented and was transformed, that would be enough. Leaving the 99 to save the 1.
Christ was being obedient to the Father. He knew the entire time where his life was going. He saw it in Scripture as surely as we can now. Christ was in the Old Testament, hinted at all over thr place. He referenced the references himself. Son of David for example. It could be a reference to Absalom, whose ending parallels with what Christ endured almost prophetically. Imagine Christ reading that and knowing he would die hanging from a tree. That he would ride into Jerusalem on a mule. The mule that he knew would be waiting on him. God had prepared the way, and Christ knew the path. He had only to obey, submit, as King David had done when he was punished by God. David endured his punishments knowing God would use it for the good. Christ knew the good that would come by his sacrifice.
Isa 53:1 Who put faith in our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For He shall grow up before Jehovah as a sapling, and as a rootsprout out of a dry ground [David]: He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of the chief men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from Him; He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely He [and no one else] hath borne the punishment for our griefs, and carried the punishment for our sorrows [the judgment brought about by sin]: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten by God, and humbled.
Isa 53:5 But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement which procured our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was hard pressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken by constraint and by sentence He was taken away: and who shall declare His generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of My People was He stricken.
Isa 53:9 And His grave was appointed with the criminals, and with a rich man when He was dead; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet Jehovah purposed to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when Thou shalt make Himself the trespass offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the purpose of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of Himself, and shall be Satisfied by His knowledge, My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I assign Him a portion among the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong; because He hath poured out Himself unto death: and He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bare the sin of many, and interposed for the transgressors.
This question strikes at the heart of the gospel and the astonishing nature of God’s grace. Christ died for sinners who didn’t want Him because His love is not based on our worthiness, desire, or reciprocation, but on His own unchanging character and divine purpose. Romans 5:8 says it plainly: “But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” At the time of His crucifixion, humanity as a whole stood in rebellion—unrepentant, blind, and alienated from God. Yet Jesus, fully aware of our rejection, laid down His life voluntarily (John 10:18), not because we wanted Him, but because He wanted us.
This act of self-giving love is not irrational; it is redemptive. It reveals that salvation is not a transaction for the deserving, but a divine rescue mission for the lost (Luke 19:10). The cross was not God’s reaction to our goodness—it was His solution to our sin, a demonstration of mercy so deep that it reaches even those who resist it. Christ’s sacrifice was the supreme act of unconditional love—not emotional sentiment, but covenantal commitment. He died not just to forgive sins but to transform hearts, to awaken love in those who once hated Him (Titus 3:3–5). His death opens the door for repentance and faith, drawing even the most hardened sinner toward reconciliation.
Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15) illustrates this powerfully. The Father doesn’t wait for the son to return in perfection or sincerity; He runs to meet him in compassion. In the same way, Christ went to the cross knowing that many would reject Him. Yet, He endured the suffering for the joy set before Him (Hebrews 12:2)—that is, the joy of redeeming those who would eventually believe, and extending the offer of salvation even to those who would not. His love makes no distinction between the worthy and the unworthy, for none are worthy (Romans 3:10–12).
So why did Christ die for those who didn’t want Him? Because God is love (1 John 4:8), and love, in its highest form, gives even when it is not received. His death was not merely for those already inclined to believe—it was for the enemies, the blasphemers, the doubters, the indifferent, the lost. His blood was shed not to affirm our affection, but to create the opportunity for new birth (John 3:5), new life, and restored relationship with God. The cross is not a reward for those who want Jesus—it is the lifeline for those who never knew they needed Him.
To me The Christ died to become the New Living Sacrifice for all manind becoming transformed from The New Eve from Baptism through Sacricifce for Penance in forgiveness through The New Adam becoming The Christ in all mankind becoming again glorified and incorruptibly transfigured One Holy Spirit Family One God in being.
Remember that Jesus while on the cross and being beaten and belittled as they were making fun of Him.
He forgave them even if they didn’t say sorry to Him.
Jesus made everybody and knew our names and what we would do regardless of being either good or bad.
Before we even knew what we were going to be doing.
Christ saved all of mankind from their sins but it is up to us to accept Him as Savior and Lord and repent.
Romans 5:8 is a thunderclap in the middle of Paul’s argument about justification and the nature of God’s love. “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” The word Paul uses for “demonstrates” (συνίστησιν – sunistēsin) carries the sense of presenting, proving, or establishing something publicly and clearly. This is not hidden love, nor abstract sentiment–it is God actively setting forth His love as undeniable evidence.
The weight of the verse lies not only in what God does, but when He does it. Christ didn’t die for the “sanctified” version of us–He died “while we were still sinners” (ἔτι ἁμαρτωλῶν). The force of this clause in Greek emphasizes the ongoing state of rebellion, not a past-tense lapse. We were not neutral. We were enemies (Romans 5:10), ungodly (Romans 5:6), without strength (Romans 5:6)–and it was then that the cross happened.
This is radical because divine love here is not reactive, it is preemptive. In human relationships, love often operates on a merit system–we love those who love us, admire those who admire us. But the cross obliterates that logic. Christ did not wait for our apology. He didn’t require moral reformation before grace could be extended. He bore the penalty while we were still spitting in His face. That is agapē–not sentimental, but sacrificial; not conditioned, but covenantal.
Why would Christ choose to die for people who wanted nothing to do with Him?
Because love is not God’s response to our goodness—it is His nature (1 John 4:8). The cross is the manifestation of divine initiative: the Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep before the sheep know His voice. He does not love us because we are lovable; His love is what makes us lovable.
And what does this mean for us? It means the love we are called to show isn’t rooted in reciprocity. It must extend toward those who don’t deserve it—because we didn’t deserve it. Jesus said, “If you love those who love you, what reward do you have?” (Matthew 5:46). The ethic of the cross calls us to mirror that love: initiating, enduring, forgiving—even when nothing is returned.
So yes—“Jesus didn’t die for your cleaned-up version—He died for you in your mess.”
And now He calls us to love others in theirs. That kind of love doesn’t make sense to the world, but it is the heart of the Gospel.
Here is more on that thought, pushng the envelope of our reason compared to God’s reason. The ideas below are not comfortable for us (nor was it for Israel to whom He originally said it), because it destroys any vestage of merit and worthiness on our part. Even though God said this through His prophets to “the house of Israel”, it is, as you say, insight into His Nature ( I realize “Nature” is not a perfect word to describe God, but it communicates what I have in mind) The following passages are not directed toward us directly, but I think it is safe to expect God to be “unchanging” in this idea. Please tell me what your think of these statements:
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went.
And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God" EZK 36:22- 28
and also:
“You have heard;
See all this.
And will you not declare it? I have made you hear new things from this time,
Even hidden things, and you did not know them.
They are created now and not from the beginning;
And before this day you have not heard them,
Lest you should say, ‘Of course I knew them.’
Surely you did not hear,
Surely you did not know;
Surely from long ago your ear was not opened.
For I knew that you would deal very treacherously,
And were called a transgressor from the womb.
“For My name’s sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.” Isa. 48:6-11
Maybe we have kind-of missed that it really was not so much all about us afterall. Maybe we are somewhat a means to an end, we are HOW God proclaims His Glory for His Name’s sake!
You have spoken well. Now tell me, @KPuff what would you have me search out further? Would you that I open the text, line by line, and draw out its marrow? For I delight to enter the depth of Holy Writ, to handle its words with care, to weigh the grammar, the syntax, and the very breathings of the original tongue.
As Coverdale rightly taught: ‘It shall greatly help ye to understand Scripture, if thou mark not only what is spoken or written, but of whom, and to whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what goeth before and what followeth after.’
Shall we then begin with such questions and walk together where the Spirit speaks plainly?”
Let me know what verse or theme you would like to begin with, and I will apply that method in full, examining context, audience, purpose, and the weight of every inspired word.
Kavod lema’an shemo, כָּבוֹד לְמַעַן שְׁמוֹ, Glory for His name’s sake.
@Johann
I simply appreciate your thorough examination of ideas and concepts that we find, and sometimes overlook, in Scripture. Here is one that I think may often be overlooked; the idea that God acts for His own glory, for His own name, and not completely because of His amazing sacrificial love for His unlovable creation.
Christians most often, (as we note in this thread) speak of God acting (saving them) because He loves them, i.e., He sacrifices for their personal benefit, and works His miracles in their best interest, as if their personal good is His only motivation. Surely this thinking does contain a grain of truth, and cannot be wholly disallowed. But there seems to be some innate repulsion to thinking God may be acting for His own benefit, in His own best interest, because to us, acting in such a way is viewed as “selfish”, or “egotistical”. We simply cannot allow ourselves to think of God as egotistical, because egotism is sin.
But, when we examine the whole counsel of God, we see him openly admitting that He was acting “for His own Name’s sake”, and for “His praise”, and not for the sake of “the house of Israel”; specifically unmotivated by any worthiness to be found in them. God, acting for His own name’s sake, is not egotistical, but actually a Holy expression of His love for His creation. When God acts to protect His Holy name, the whole of creation benefits, and that is Love.
“But You are holy, Enthroned in the praises of Israel.” Psalm 22:3
Consider these teaching verses that reveal God’s testimony of His own motivation.
…having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:5-6 “to the praise of His glory” cf. vv. 12, 14
Thus says the Lord God, It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name.. . . And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name. . . . And the nations will know that I am the Lord. (Ezekiel 36:22-23; cf. v. 32)
Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory. (Isaiah 43:6-7)
I made the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah cling to me, declares the Lord, that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise, and a glory. (Jeremiah 13:11)
. . but rebelled by the Sea, at the Red Sea. Yet he saved them for his name’s sake, that he might make known his mighty power. (Psalm 106:7-8)
“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” (Romans 9:17)
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord . . . And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen. (Exodus 14:4, 18; cf. v. 17)
I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I had brought them out. (Ezekiel 20:l4)
Who is like your people Israel, the one nation on earth whom God went to redeem to be his people, making himself a name and doing for them great and awesome things by driving out before your people, whom you redeemed for yourself from Egypt, a nation and its gods? (2 Samuel 7:23)
Do not be afraid; you have done all this evil. Yet do not turn aside from following the Lord . . . For the Lord will not forsake his people, for his great name’s sake . (l Samuel 12:20, 22)
For I will defend this city to save it, for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David. (2 Kings 19:34; cf. 20:6)
The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood. (John 7:l8)
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven . (Matthew 5:16; cf. 1 Peter 2:12)
I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins. (Isaiah 43:25)
For your own name’s sake, O Lord, pardon my guilt, for it is great. (Psalm 25:11)
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed. (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10)
Desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, [God] has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory. (Romans 9:22-23)
Your insight is rich, and spiritually weighty, and I believe you’re pressing into something often flattened by modern sentimentalism. Yes, Scripture bears witness that God acts for His name’s sake (לְמַעַן שְׁמִי, lema’an shemi), not first because man is lovely, but because God is holy. The verbs of divine action—zākar (remember), nāśāʾ (bear, lift), ḥāsak (spare), qāraʾ (call), yāshaʿ (save)—frequently occur in tandem with God’s name, not man’s worth.
For example, in Ezekiel 36:22, YHWH thunders to exiled Israel
“It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name.”
Hebrew: לֹא לְמַעַנְכֶם… כִּי אִם לְשֵׁם קָדְשִׁי אֲשֶׁר חִלַּלְתֶּם
(lo lema’ankhem… ki im leshem qodshi asher ḥillaltem)
Here, God’s action (ʿoseh, “I will act”) is not stirred by Israel’s repentance or beauty, but by His jealousy for His name, which they profaned among the nations. This isn’t a lesser motive, but the supreme one. The holiness of God is not in conflict with His love, it is the furnace from which His love radiates.
God’s Glory and God’s Love Are Not Competing Motives The dichotomy some people fear, God acting either for His glory or for our good—is not biblical. Isaiah 48:9–11 shows both in harmony.
“For my name’s sake I defer my anger… For my praise I restrain it for you… For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it… My glory I will not give to another.”
This deferral (eʾerikh) and restraint (ḥāsak) are verbs of mercy, yet their motive is glory. God acts with covenant mercy (ḥesed) not because man is deserving, but because God’s name is tied to His covenant faithfulness. The cross is the summit of this: God’s glory and man’s salvation converge not in competition but in cruciform harmony.
Romans 3:25–26 makes this explicit. Paul says God displayed Christ as a hilastērion (propitiation) “to demonstrate His righteousness… so that He might be just and the justifier.” God’s justice is upheld as He justifies sinners. That is, His holy name is vindicated as He acts in mercy. It’s not one or the other.
Calvary is not about stroking man’s ego; it is about exalting God’s character.
At the cross, God made a public display of His righteousness (endeixis tēs dikaiosynēs autou). That righteousness includes both His wrath against sin and His love for the world. When Christ bore our sins, He upheld God’s justice and magnified God’s mercy, both for our good and for God’s glory. These two are not split; they’re welded at Golgotha.
What about accusations of egotism?
To call God egotistical for acting for His glory is to import fallen categories into a Holy Being. When a sinful man seeks his own praise, it’s vanity. But when the infinitely glorious God seeks His own glory, it is truth. He is the only being for whom self-exaltation is not sin but righteousness. Why? Because to glorify anything less than Himself would be idolatry.
C.S. Lewis rightly noted this tension in Reflections on the Psalms, saying he initially found the Psalms’ call to praise God unsettling, until he realized that praise is the consummation of joy. God calls for praise not because He is needy, but because He is the fountainhead of all good. To demand worship is not selfishness—it is love, for we are only whole when we glorify the One for whom we were made.
Psalm 115:1 captures this paradox with perfect balance:
“Not to us, O LORD, not to us, but to Your name give glory, for the sake of Your steadfast love and Your faithfulness!”
Hebrew: לֹא לָנוּ יְהוָה לֹא לָנוּ כִּי לְשִׁמְךָ תֵּן כָּבוֹד עַל חַסְדְּךָ עַל אֲמִתֶּךָ
Here, God’s name and His ḥesed (covenant love) are not at odds—they are co-motives. The psalmist sees that God’s glory is the secure ground of our mercy.
So, to tie the “knotty question” God does not save us because we are worthy. He saves because He is worthy to be praised. His love is not diminished by His glory—it is displayed through it. The cross was not an act of divine flattery toward man, but the highest proof that God will not let His name be shamed, nor His people perish. So yes, God acts for His name’s sake,and that is love. Because when God’s name is vindicated, sinners are saved, justice is upheld, and mercy triumphs over judgment.
Let us then worship Him not because He made much of us, but because He made much of Himself by giving us Christ.
