Do people of different faiths/religions go to Heaven?

This creates a scenario where human beings enter the world entirely impeccable. That creates a lot of problems theologically: Is it possible for someone to live a sinless life? If a child is without sin then we have examples of sinless people already–-can a person grow from a sinless child to a sinless adult? If no? Why not?

I believe Scripture teaches that we enter into this world sinful and sin is the universal human condition (with Christ alone as the exception),

“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.“ - Psalm 51:5

“They have all fallen away; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.“ - Psalm 53:3

“The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.“ - Psalm 14:2-3

“Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned” - Romans 5:12

I also agree that we cannot consign little children to hell, but not because they are sinless. Each and every one of us was conceived and entered into this world wholly sinful. The moment I was conceived I needed a Savior.

@TheologyNerd

You are aware that there are plenty of believers who do not hold to the idea of original sin, right? And it is not a fringe thing either, because you have groups like the Eastern churches who speak more about inherited death than inherited guilt, and you have many early writers before Augustine who saw sin coming through imitation and corruption rather than a guilty nature, and even today you will find believers who read Romans five through the lens of personal accountability rather than a born in condemnation view.

Like here, for example…

Pelagianism: This view says that Adam’s sin had no effect upon the souls of his descendants other than that he provided a sinful example. Adam’s example has influenced those who followed him to also sin. But, according to this view, man has the ability to stop sinning if he simply chooses to. Pelagianism runs contrary to a number of passages that indicate man is hopelessly enslaved by his sins (apart from God’s intervention) and that his good works are “dead” or worthless in meriting God’s favor (Ephesians 2:1–2; Matthew 15:18–19; Romans 7:23; Hebrews 6:1; 9:14).

Arminianism: Arminians believe Adam’s original sin has resulted in the rest of mankind inheriting a corrupt, sinful nature, which causes us to sin in the same way that a cat’s nature causes it to meow—it comes naturally. According to this view, man cannot stop sinning on his own; God’s supernatural, enabling grace, called prevenient grace, in conjunction with the gospel, allows that person to choose to exercise faith in Christ. The teaching of prevenient grace is not explicitly found in Scripture.

Calvinism: The Calvinistic doctrine of original sin states that Adam’s sin has resulted not only in our having a sin nature, but also in our incurring guilt before God for which we deserve punishment. Being conceived with original sin upon us (Psalm 51:5) results in our inheriting a sin nature so wicked that Jeremiah 17:9 describes the human heart as “deceitful above all things and beyond cure.” Not only was Adam found guilty because he sinned, but his sin was imputed to us, making us guilty and deserving of his punishment (death) as well (Romans 5:12, 19). There are two views as to why Adam’s sin should be imputed to us. The first view states that the human race was within Adam in seed form; thus, when Adam sinned, we sinned in him. This is similar to the biblical teaching that Levi (a descendant of Abraham) paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham (Genesis 14:20; Hebrews 7:4–9), even though Levi was not born until hundreds of years later. The other main view is that Adam served as our representative, and so, when he sinned, we were found guilty as well.

Both the Arminian and Calvinistic views teach original sin and see individuals as unable to overcome sin apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. Most all Calvinists also teach imputed sin; some Arminians deny imputation of sin, and others believe that Christ’s death has negated the effects of imputation.

The fact of original sin means that we cannot please God on our own. No matter how many “good deeds” we do, we still commit sin, and we still have the problem of a corrupt nature within. We must have Christ; we must be born again (John 3:3). God deals with the effects of original sin in our hearts through the process of sanctification. As John Piper puts it, “The problem of our moral defilement and habitual sinning is solved by his purifying us by the work of Spirit” (“Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part IV,” preached 8/20/2000).
What is original sin? | GotQuestions.org).

Daniel J. Castellano
Part II: Early Patristic Teaching on Original Sin
2.1 St. Irenaeus and the Redemption of Original Sin
2.2 St. Cyprian and the Baptism of Infants
2.3 St. Hilary and the Sinfulness of the Flesh
2.4 St. Gregory of Nazianzus and the State of the Unbaptized
2.5 St. Basil of Caesarea and the Sickness of Original Sin
2.6 St. John Chrysostom and the Regenerative Effect of Baptism
2.7 St. Ambrose and Inherited Corruption

Guess my question to you is, did we all sin [commit acts of sin] IN Adam?

J

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Many people do. Some verses, like Psalm 51:5 “conceived in sin” and Psalm 58:3 “wayward from birth”, suggest all humans inherit a sinful nature original sin from Adam, making babies inherently predisposed to evil, while other verses, like Isaiah 7:16 “don’t yet know good from bad” and Jesus’s welcoming of children Matthew 18/19, imply innocence before moral choice, leading to different interpretations on whether babies are “evil” or simply in a state of moral infancy needing God’s grace.

We know, the concept of original sin is widely accepted. One I also subscribe to. However, Isaiah 7:16 and Deuteronomy 1:39 suggest children who “do not yet know good from bad” are innocent and not held accountable. Jesus’s Example: Jesus emphasized children’s importance and purity, Matthew 18:3-4, suggesting they represent a state of dependence on God.

The Bible doesn’t typically label babies as “evil” but rather as born into a world affected by sin, inheriting a sinful nature that needs redemption through Christ. Their innocence is often seen in their lack of willful, accountable sin, highlighting their need for God’s grace until they can understand and choose good or evil.

Peter

That’s a lottery level question, you should try taking it up. That’s actually a government department, did you know that? The department of imagination is an actual law. There’s a. Law against prognostication, meaning predicting the future with tarot cards or ouji boards or whatever.

People who are kinda funny for ye Nile pyramids claim the be religious and praying, and act like they know the future from stone Masonic earthworks or whatever, in contravention of the third commandment. You should look into that. The law says you don’t know everything and God isn’t going to tell you everything in this life, also the pyramids don’t count as a god, so use your imagination.

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The point you are trying to make is that original sin is a questionable doctrine because different groups, traditions and early writers have a different view on it. You also seem to be suggesting that Romans 5 could be interpreted without having the ideas of inherited guilt and corruption.

The measure of truth is not what groups, writers or traditions say. “Your word is truth” ~John 17:17.

The disagreement of man has zero relevance to what God has spoken.

May I share what Scripture actually says:

“Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all because all sinned.” ~Romans 5:12

“Through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners.” ~Romans 5:19

“In sin did my mother conceive me.” ~Psalm 51:5

“The imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”~Genesis 8:21

“There is none righteous, no, not one.” ~Romans 3:10

“You must be born again.” ~John 3:3

Those are just a few. These verses don’t come from Augustine, Eastern churches, Calvinism, Arminianism, Pelagianism or early writers. They come from God Himself.

You replace the authoritative Word of God with outside authorities. That is the very definition of false teaching.

Scripture warns, “Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar” ~Proverbs 30:6.

You quote theological systems and historical writers, but never deal with the plain text of Scripture. That is how people get deceived.

When tradition becomes the lens through which we read, the Word becomes blurred.

Yes, we all sinned in Adam. Scripture answers your question directly: “In Adam all die” ~1 Corinthians 15:22. This is not symbolic or optional. Adam’s sin brought death and corruption to all humanity.

The fruit test is simple: Any teaching that diminishes man’s corruption diminishes the gospel. If people are not born sinners, they do not need to be born again. If sin did not spread to all, the cross becomes unnecessary. That is how wrong teaching harms souls.

Your claims are contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture. That makes them false. “Mark those who cause divisions contrary to the doctrine you have learned, and avoid them” ~Romans 16:17.

My appeal is simple: Return to the written Word. “Test everything; hold fast what is good” ~1 Thessalonians 5:21.

Cheers @bdavidc, I am done engaging with you.

J.

Really? yetzer hatov
yetzer hara, right?

Romans 5 never says all people sinned in Adam by performing his act, the Greek phrase eph ho pantes hemarton in ~Romans 5.12 uses the aorist hemarton which states the fact that all sinned, but Paul does not say when, where, or whether it was Adam’s act itself, and to insert that idea is to overreach the text, Gordon Fee, Bob Utley, and F F Bruce all note that Paul immediately interrupts himself in verses 13 and 14 to show a different point, namely that death reigned even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s transgression, in other words men sinned, but their sin was not identical to Adam’s act, nor does Paul say Adam’s guilt is automatically imputed to every descendant without qualification.

Sin entered into the world (hē hamartia eis ton kosmon eisēlthen). Personification of sin and represented as coming from the outside into the world of humanity. Paul does not discuss the origin of evil beyond this fact. There are some today who deny the fact of sin at all and who call it merely “an error of mortal mind” (a notion) while others regard it as merely an animal inheritance devoid of ethical quality.
And so death passed unto all men (kai houtōs eis pantas anthrōpous diēlthen). Note use of dierchomai rather than eiserchomai, just before, second aorist active indicative in both instances. By “death” in Gen_2:17; Gen_3:19 physical death is meant, but in Rom_5:17, Rom_5:21 eternal death is Paul’s idea and that lurks constantly behind physical death with Paul.
For that all sinned (Ephesians’ hōi pantes hēmarton). Constative (summary) aorist active indicative of hamartanō, gathering up in this one tense the history of the race (committed sin). The transmission from Adam became facts of experience. In the old Greek Ephesians’ hōi usually meant “on condition that,” but “because” in N.T. (Robertson, Grammar, p. 963).

tn The translation of the phrase ἐφ᾿ ᾧ (eph hō) has been heavily debated. For a discussion of all the possibilities, see C. E. B. Cranfield, “On Some of the Problems in the Interpretation of Romans 5.12,” SJT 22 (1969): 324-41. Only a few of the major options can be mentioned here: (1) the phrase can be taken as a relative clause in which the pronoun refers to Adam, “death spread to all people in whom [Adam] all sinned.” (2) The phrase can be taken with consecutive (resultative) force, meaning “death spread to all people with the result that all sinned.” (3) Others take the phrase as causal in force: “death spread to all people because all sinned.”
NET notes.

So which is it?

Romans 5.19 says the many were made sinners, the verb kathistemi means to appoint or constitute, and the passive voice signals an outcome in the human condition**, not a statement that all performed Adam’s deed,** it describes the environment of corruption into which all are born, the domain of death that Adam’s fall unleashed, but it does not state that God views every infant as having committed Adam’s trespass, nor that guilt is transferred mechanically, not one phrase in the chapter says all sinned in Adam in the strict substitutionary sense you are asserting.

Psalm 51.5 is David’s poetic confession of his own moral brokenness, it uses the Hebrew chet for sin and the line is in parallelism that expresses depth of depravity rather than metaphysics of inherited guilt, it does not say David sinned in Adam, it says he was born into a fallen environment, and Utley repeatedly notes that Hebrew poetry asserts relational realities, not doctrinal formulas about federal headship.

Genesis 8.21 states that the inclination of the human heart is evil from youth, but that still does not state that every human committed Adam’s act or that Adam’s guilt is judicially stamped on all newborns, it describes the universal bent of fallen humanity, not the metaphysical claim that all sinned in Adam.

Romans 3.10 declares universal unrighteousness, but again it does not answer the question you raised.

John 3.3 on the new birth proves that humans need regeneration because they are fallen and spiritually dead, but Jesus does not say they sinned in Adam, He says they cannot see the kingdom unless they are born from above.

Your appeal to ~1 Corinthians 15.22 misses Paul’s actual argument, the phrase in Adam all die is a statement about solidarity in mortality, not about everyone performing Adam’s transgression, the entire chapter is about resurrection, not inherited guilt, the Greek en Adam is a sphere of existence, the realm of death that Adam opened, just as en Christ denotes the sphere of resurrection life for all who belong to Him, the contrast is between two realms, not between two individual acts committed by every human.

Not one verse in your list says explicitly that all sinned in Adam by committing his act or bearing his guilt in a legalistic transfer, the text says all die in Adam because Adam opened the door of mortality and corruption for the race, and all who are in Christ receive life, but the text does not assert the tight formulation you are forcing on it.

What Scripture teaches is universal fallenness, universal corruption, universal need for the cross, and universal necessity of the new birth, and I affirm all of that without hesitation, because the gospel is for sinners, not the morally neutral, the problem is that you are reading Augustine’s later formulation back into texts that use broader categories, and claiming that anyone who does not read them through that lens is rejecting Scripture, when the reality is that the verses do not make your precise claim.

J.

Like I have said over and over stop twisting what the bible says and I will quit replying. This is exactly what keeps happening. You bury everyone in word clouds, name-drop outside authorities, lean on Jewish mystical terms, and then insist the text says something it plainly does not. Scripture is clear and simple. You turn it into a maze to dodge what God already said.

Here is the blunt truth. Paul does not leave Romans 5 open to your interpretation. He states the reality directly: “Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned” ~Romans 5:12. The aorist hemarton points to a completed past action, not an ongoing condition you discover later. Paul ties that action to Adam’s one trespass. He is not describing a thousand individual origin points of sin. He is tracing the whole disaster to one event.

And Paul explains what he means just seven verses later: “Through one man’s trespass many died” and “through one man’s disobedience many were made sinners” ~Romans 5:15,19. That is not poetry. That is not yetzer hara. That is not relational metaphor. That is the Spirit of God stating that Adam’s act brought guilt and death onto all. No outside theologian gives me that truth. The text itself says it.

Your entire argument hinges on importing ideas from outside Scripture to override the plain statements God already made. You quote Gordon Fee, Bruce, Utley, NET notes, and rabbinic categories. I am quoting Paul. When your framework contradicts what the Spirit inspired, your framework is the problem.

Psalm 51:5 is not vague psychology. David confesses “in sin my mother conceived me.” That is not environment. That is condition. Scripture teaches we enter the world already fallen.

And your attempt to sidestep ~1 Corinthians 15:22 is just another dodge. Paul says “in Adam all die.” Not “all die because of their own later choices.” He is tracing death to Adam. He uses Adam as the head of a race under death, and Christ as the head of a people given life.

You can pile on Greek notes, NET footnotes, and scholarly names all day, but none of it changes the plain words on the page. The Bible does not bend to outside authorities. It interprets itself.

The issue is not that you lack intelligence. The issue is that you refuse to let Scripture speak for itself. You insist on redefining terms so that the verses never actually say what they say.

This is why I told you before that your teaching is deceptive. You consistently push ideas that do not come from the text, then act as if anyone who sticks with Scripture is the one misusing it.

The Word is clear. Adam’s sin brought death and condemnation on the whole race. Christ’s obedience brings righteousness and life to all who belong to Him. That is Paul’s entire point in Romans 5.

If you reject that, you are not disagreeing with me. You are disagreeing with the Scripture you claim to honor.

@bdavidc
The difference between how you read this verse and how I read it could not be clearer. You refuse, flatly and repeatedly, to engage with what is in front of you. You shut down Koine Greek grammar, syntax, historical context, and the debates that illuminate Paul’s meaning.

You dismiss every tool that helps a student of Scripture understand the text as it was written.
And now, after erecting your wall of refusal, you expect to silence me? That is not exegesis, that is tyranny.

Scripture demands study, discernment, and humility, not a chokehold imposed by pride. I will let the Word speak fully, with all its grammar, nuance, and historical clarity, and I will not be muzzled by someone unwilling to face what is plainly written.

Cheers mate, I had enough of you.

J.

The irony is you actually prove my point while trying to accuse me. You say the difference between our readings “could not be clearer,” and you are right, but not in the way you think. You trust layers of human tools. I trust what God actually said. That is the whole issue.

You’re correct about one thing: the Word is clear. And finally, you’re starting to get it. Except the reason I “refuse” your approach is simple**. I only engage with the truth the Bible actually teaches.** You lean on human opinions, academic debates, and man-made tools and then act as if they carry the same weight as Scripture. Nowhere does God say you need every tool men write in order to understand His Word. He said the opposite. His Word is pure. His Word is enough. “Every word of God is pure… do not add to His words” ~Proverbs 30:5–6.

That is the reason so much deception has flooded today’s churches. Men think they are smarter than God. Pride always shows up when someone believes the text isn’t clear unless a scholar explains it for them. God calls that foolishness. “Let God be true but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4.

You accuse me of “shutting down Koine Greek grammar, syntax, historical context.” No. I shut down using those things to override the plain meaning of Scripture. Greek and history are tools, not masters. They cannot change what God actually said. Paul didn’t tell the church to submit to scholars. He told them to submit to Scripture. “Do not go beyond what is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

You accuse me of “dismissing every tool that helps a student understand the text.” Wrong again. I dismiss tools that add meaning God never gave. That is where you keep crossing the line. Tools that explain grammar are fine. Tools that create new theology are not. This isn’t complicated.

You accuse me of “tyranny” because I will not accept man-made additions. That isn’t tyranny. That is obedience to God. “Do not add to His words, lest He reprove you” ~Proverbs 30:6.

You accuse me of refusing to “let the Word speak fully.” No. I insist on letting the Word speak without being smothered by commentary, imagination, and theological padding. You call that pride. God calls it faithfulness. Pride is thinking your added insights are necessary for God’s people to understand what He meant.

You accuse me of wanting to “silence” you. I am not silencing anything. I am pointing out that your interpretations are not found in the text. Scripture is simple: sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and death spread to all because all sinned ~Romans 5:12. You can cover it with academic varnish all day long, but the plain meaning is still the plain meaning.

The truth is simple. You keep stepping beyond the text. I refuse to follow you there**. You trust men more than God’s actual Word. I will not.**

You say you’ve had enough. That’s fine. But your frustration doesn’t change Scripture. Your arguments don’t rewrite God’s truth. And your tools don’t give you authority over what God already said.

I’ll stay with the Word. You can keep your layers of human commentary. One of us is standing on Scripture. The other is standing on opinions. It really is that simple.

Right @bdavidc, point me to where Scripture explicitly says “we sinned in Adam.”

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as R20sin came into the world through one man, and R21death through sin, and R22so death spread to all menN1 because R23all sinned—
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but R24sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not R25like the transgression of Adam, R26who was a type of R1the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for R2many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For R3the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought R4justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness R5reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespassN1 led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousnessN2 leads to justification and life for R6all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man’s R7disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s R8obedience the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Now R9the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, R10grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, R11as sin reigned in death, R12grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Exegete this for me.

J.

Since you keep asking for the text, here it is laid out in front of you. These are God’s words, not mine. Read them as they stand.

Romans 5:12 - “Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.”

Romans 5:15 - “Many died through one man’s trespass.”

Romans 5:16 - “The judgment following one trespass brought condemnation.”

Romans 5:17 - “Because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man.”

Romans 5:18 - “One trespass led to condemnation for all men.”

Romans 5:19 - “By the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners.”

There is your answer. Straight from the text. No filters. No commentary. No Greek debates. Just the plain words of Scripture:

One man
One trespass
One act of disobedience
Condemnation for all
Death for all

This is not unclear. This is not hidden. This is not complicated. You asked for where the Bible says it. There it is, in your own eyesight.

If you still reject it, the problem is not that the text is unclear. The problem is that you will not accept what is written. It really is that simple.

@bdavidc
I said exegete this for me, where does it say we have “sinned IN Adam?” You are aware what exegesis is, correct?

And for the record, I do not deny that we are sinners. The question is not whether humans sin, but how Scripture explains the origin and transmission of that sin. There are several ways Christians have historically understood this:

Augustinian/Federal Headship View – Adam acted as the representative of the human race; his sin brought guilt and corruption to all humanity. All are born under this inherited condition and naturally choose sin. This is the classical Roman Catholic and many Protestant position.

Pelagian View – Adam’s sin affected only himself; humans are born morally neutral, able to choose good or evil. Sin is learned, imitated, or chosen, not inherited.

Semi-Pelagian/Arminian View – Humans inherit a corrupted nature that inclines them toward sin (a sinful propensity) but not guilt; personal sin is chosen, and God’s grace is necessary to begin salvation.

Eastern Orthodox View – Emphasizes the inherited mortality and corrupted environment rather than transmitted guilt; humans inherit a weakened nature prone to sin, but each person is accountable for their own choices.

Reformational/Calvinist View – Closely aligned with federal headship but emphasizes total depravity; sin affects every part of human nature, making divine intervention indispensable.

Each view wrestles with Paul’s language in ~Romans 5:12–19, ~1 Corinthians 15:22, and Psalm 51:5. The core truth remains: all humans sin, and all need Christ. The debate is over how Adam’s sin affects us, not whether we fall short.

Right, care to elaborate on this passage? Since your explanation was too narrow, no “clarity”

1Pe 3:15 But δὲ in ἐν your ὑμῶν, - ταῖς hearts καρδίαις sanctify ἁγιάσατε - τὸν Christ Χριστὸν [as] Lord, Κύριον always ἀεὶ ready ἕτοιμοι for πρὸς a defense ἀπολογίαν to everyone παντὶ - τῷ asking αἰτοῦντι you ὑμᾶς an account λόγον concerning περὶ the τῆς hope ἐλπίδος, in ἐν you; ὑμῖν yet ἀλλὰ with μετὰ gentleness πραΰτητος and καὶ fear, φόβου,

And no, I’m not Roman Catholic.

J.

You keep using the term “exegete” like it’s some magical ability. To exegete just means to bring out what the text already says, not to import human ideas, history timelines, or theological labels. It is the exact opposite of what you have just done.

Exegesis does not require Augustine, Pelagius, Orthodoxy, Calvinism, or any of the other things you listed. None of that is relevant when the Scripture is clear. You just keep evading the plain text by making up man made categories, because the plain text is against you.

This is what exegesis looks like:

“Sin came into the world through one man… and so death spread to all men because all sinned.” ~Romans 5:12

“By the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners.” ~Romans 5:19

“In Adam all die.” ~1 Corinthians 15:22

“I was brought forth in iniquity.” ~Psalm 51:5

You do not need any human opinions to understand those passages**. They say exactly what they say.** God holds Adam’s act as the point where sin and death entered the human race, and that his disobedience made us sinners. It is plain, and it is right in front of your face.

Why you refuse to accept the plain Scripture is your problem, not a question of clarity. The Word is clear. You just refuse it because it does not fit into the system you wish to defend. That is not exegesis. That is evasion.

I have already answered you using Scripture**. If you cannot grasp what is simple and direct, more talking will not help.** The text says what it says.

This is your lesson for today since you do not seem to understand what you talking about:
Here is a simple, everyday example that even you may be able to grasp:

If someone reads a weather report that says, “Rain begins at 3 PM,” and they explain it by saying, “The report says rain starts at 3 PM,” that is exegesis. They are drawing out exactly what is written.

If instead they said, “Well maybe it means snow, or maybe it means symbolic rain, or maybe it means nothing at all,” that is not exegesis. That is twisting the statement into something the author never said. Like you have been doing. Exegesis is simply letting the text speak for itself.

That is why no one needs Augustine, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Calvinism, or any other system to understand Romans 5**. The text already says plainly what God means.**

See you even go to the false teaching of Catholicism to try and make your point. Sad indeed.

Right, but slow down and look at the setting Paul is actually addressing here, because context governs meaning, and ripping a single line out of a resurrection argument does not prove the claim you are trying to force into the verse.
Paul is not building a doctrine of everyone sinning in Adam here, he is explaining why physical death reigns over the human race and why the resurrection of Christ overturns that death for those who belong to Him.
The text says “in Adam all die,” not “all sinned in Adam,” and those are not the same claim. Paul is contrasting two realms of existence, Adam as the sphere where death operates and Christ as the sphere where life is given.
The question in front of Paul’s audience is the denial of resurrection, not the mechanism of inherited guilt.

You, however, are using a resurrection text to make an anthropology argument it was never written to carry.

It was just a matter of time, so I’ll ask you again @bdavidc can you exegete this for me since we are now in 1 Cor. 15. 22…

…and not looking good for you, same with Romans 5. 19.

Were made (κατεστάθησαν)
See on Jas_3:6. Used elsewhere by Paul only at Tit_1:5, in the sense of to appoint to office or position. This is its most frequent use in the New Testament. See Mat_24:25; Act_6:3; Act_7:10; Heb_5:1, etc. The primary meaning being to set down, it is used in classical Greek of bringing to a place, as a ship to the land, or a man to a place or person; hence to bring before a magistrate (Act_17:15). From this comes the meaning to set down as, i.e., to declare or show to be; or to constitute, make to be. So 2Pe_1:8; Jas_4:4; Jas_3:6. The exact meaning in this passage is disputed. The following are the principal explanations: 1. Set down in a declarative sense; declared to be. 2. Placed in the category of sinners because of a vital connection with the first tranegressor. 3. Became sinners; were made. This last harmonizes with sinned in Rom_5:12. The disobedience of Adam is thus declared to have been the occasion of the death of all, because it is the occasion of their sin; but the precise nature of this relation is not explained.

Rom 5:19 For as ὥσπερ indeed γὰρ through διὰ the τῆς disobedience παρακοῆς of the τοῦ one ἑνὸς man, ἀνθρώπου the οἱ many πολλοί, were made κατεστάθησαν sinners, ἁμαρτωλοὶ so οὕτως also καὶ through διὰ the τῆς obedience ὑπακοῆς of the τοῦ One, ἑνὸς the οἱ many πολλοί. will be made κατασταθήσονται righteous. δίκαιοι

Transliteration: katestathēsan
Morphology: V-AIP-3P
Verb - Aorist Indicative Passive - 3rd Person Plural
Strong’s no.: G2525 (καθιστάνω, καθίστημι)
Meaning: To set down, bring down to a place; to set in order, appoint, make, constitute.

Rom_5:19 “one man’s disobedience. . .the obedience of the One” Paul was using the theological concept of Old Testament corporality. One person’s acts affected the whole community (cf. Achan in Joshua 7). Question…does this mean the COMMUNITY “sinned” IN ACHAN? Adam and Eve’s disobedience brought about the judgment of God on all creation (cf. Genesis 3). All creation has been affected by the consequences of Adam’s rebellion (cf. Rom_8:18-25). The world is not the same. Humans are not the same. Death became the end of all earthly life (cf. Genesis 5). This is not the world that God intended it to be!
In this same corporate sense Jesus’ one act of obedience, Calvary, resulted in (1) a new age, (2) a new people, and (3) a new covenant. This representative theology is called “the Adam-Christ typology” (cf. Php_2:6). Jesus is the second Adam. He is the new beginning for the fallen human race.

So what is the precise nature of this relation? Can you tell? Here it is, again…

Rom 5:18
(ESV) Therefore, as one trespass ▼ led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness ▼ leads to justification and life for bmall men.
(NET2full) Consequently, ▼ just as condemnation ▼ for all people ▼ came ▼ through one transgression, ▼ so too through the one righteous act ▼ came righteousness leading to life ▼ for all people.
Rom 5:19
(ESV) For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s bvobedience the many will be made righteous.
(NET2full) For just as through the disobedience of the one man ▼ many ▼ were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of one man ▼ many ▼ will
be constituted righteous.

Did we “sin” IN/into Adam? Maybe I’ve lost you by now, correct?

J.

@bdavidc

I asked you to exegete Romans 5, hoping for an edifying discussion, and what do you do?

Quoting Romans 5 back at me?

So how do you feed God’s flock? Just reading the Scriptures and no Q&A?

This forum should have an ignore feature somewhere.

J.

NO, you have not lost me. This is not about you being too smart for “mere humans” like me to understand. The issue is not intelligence. The issue is submission to Scripture. The Word of God is plain. When someone keeps avoiding the plain reading, the problem is not that others cannot grasp it. The problem is that you do not want to accept what God has already said .You skip over the verses because they contradict your position. Until you are willing to submit to Scripture instead of trying to rewrite it, you will keep talking in circles.

You are trying to force your system onto verses that already give their own explanation. The Bible is simple when we let it say what it actually says.

The question was never complicated. Scripture teaches two things at the same time.

Death and condemnation spread to all because of Adam. Every person also sins personally. You keep demanding the wording “we sinned in Adam” as if God must use your exact phrase. The Scriptures already state the truth clearly. You just refuse to accept it.

Here are the texts again so you can read exactly what God says.

Romans 5: 12 - “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men because all sinned.”

Romans 5: 18 - “Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation. Even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.”

Romans 5: 19 - “For as by one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners. So by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.”

1 Corinthians 15: 22 - “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Psalm 51: 5 - “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity and in sin my mother conceived me.”

Job 14: 4 - “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one.”

Ephesians 2: 1 - “You were dead in trespasses and sins.”

Ephesians 2: 3 - “We were by nature children of wrath.”

John 3: 6 - “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.”

Every one of these verses says the exact same thing. Humanity fell in Adam. We enter the world already fallen. We sin because we are sinners, and we die because we come from Adam. That is the connection God gives. You do not get to demand a different wording before you accept what is already stated.

Paul is not confused. The text is not confused. The only confusion shows up when you will not read the words as they stand. I am sorry you have such a hard time understand plain simple scripture.

You keep dragging in Greek lexicons and outside explanations because the plain reading confronts your position. Paul has already told you exactly how the relation works. Adam’s one act brought death, condemnation, and mankind being “made sinners.” Christ’s one act brings righteousness and life to all who belong to Him. Nothing complicated. Nothing hidden. No need for your imported theology.

You asked “Did we sin in Adam?” The Word already answered you. Death came to all because of one man. Condemnation came to all because of one man. The many were made sinners because of one man’s disobedience. That is God’s answer. You do not lack verses. You lack ears to hear them. ~Matthew 13:15

You need to stop playing games with the scripture. I have shown you the Scriptures and you keep pointing me back to everything else except the passages themselves. The Word of God is clear. Whether you accept it is between you and the Lord, but don’t try and push your false teaching on others.

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: Rom_5:12-14
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom_5:12 “Therefore” Romans has several strategically placed “therefores” (cf. Rom_5:1; Rom_8:1; Rom_12:1). The interpretive question is to what they relate. They could be a way of referring to Paul’s whole argument. For sure this one relates to Genesis and, therefore, probably back to Rom_1:18-32.
“as through one man sin entered into the world” All three verbs in Rom_5:12 are aorist tense. Adam’s fall brought death (cf. 1Co_15:22). The Bible does not dwell on the origin of sin. Sin also occurred in the angelic realm (cf. Genesis 3 and Rev_12:7-9). How and when are uncertain (cf. Isa_14:12-27; Eze_28:12-19; Job_4:18; Mat_25:41; Luk_10:18; Joh_12:31; Rev_12:7-9).
Adam’s sin involved two aspects (1) disobedience to a specific commandment (cf. Gen_2:16-17), and (2) self-oriented pride (cf. Gen_3:5-6). This continues the allusion to Genesis 3 begun in Rom_1:18-32.
It is the theology of sin that so clearly separates Paul from rabbinical thought.

The rabbis did not focus on Genesis 3; they asserted instead, that there were two “intents” (yetzers) in every person. Their famous rabbinical saying “In every man’s heart is a black and a white dog. The one you feed the most becomes the biggest.”

Paul saw sin as a major barrier between holy God and His creation. Paul was not a systematic theologian (cf. James Steward’s A Man in Christ).

He gave several origins of sin (1) Adam’s fall, (2) satanic temptation, and (3) continuing human rebellion (i.e., Eph_2:2-3).
In the theological contrasts and parallels between Adam and Jesus two possible implications are present.

  1. Adam was a real historical person.
  2. Jesus was a real human being.

Both of these truths affirm the Bible in the face of false teaching. Notice the repeated use of “one man” or “the one.” These two ways of referring to Adam and Jesus are used eleven times in this context.

“one man” This generic phrase (lit. henos anthrôpou) is used to represent Adam (Rom_5:12; Rom_5:16-19) or Jesus (Rom_5:15 [twice], 17 [twice], 18,19). They each represent a group or community (i.e., “many,” cf. Rom_5:15 [twice], 19[twice]; “all,” cf. Rom_5:12-13; Rom_5:18 [twice]).

“death through sin”
Augustine first coined the term “original sin.” It describes the consequences of Adam/Eve’s choices in Genesis 3. Their rebellion has affected all of creation. Humans are impacted by

  1. a fallen world system
  2. a personal tempter
  3. a fallen nature
    Original sin (Rom_5:12-14; Rom_5:16 a,17) forms a partnership with personal sin (Rom_5:12 d,16b) to make all humans sinful! Sin results in “death” (cf. Rom_1:32; Rom_6:13; Rom_6:16; Rom_6:21; Rom_6:23; Rom_7:5; Rom_7:9-11; Rom_7:13; Rom_7:24; Rom_8:13).
    The Jerome Biblical Commentary (p. 308) mentions the rabbinical tradition that there were three periods of history.
  4. Adam - Moses
  5. Moses - Messiah
  6. Messiah - eschaton

If Paul was thinking of these divisions then

  1. Adam - Moses (original sin, no law but death)
  2. Moses - Messiah (personal sin, violation of law)
  3. Messiah - (freedom from the Law/law through grace)

“death spread to all men” The major thrust of this paragraph is the universality of the consequences of sin (cf. Rom_5:16-19; 1Co_15:22; Gal_1:10), which is death.

1. spiritual death - Gen_2:17; Gen_3:1-24; Isa_59:2; Rom_7:10-11; Eph_2:1; Col_2:13; Jas_1:15
2. physical death - Gen_3:4-5; Gen_5:1-32
3. eternal death - Rev_2:11; Rev_20:6; Rev_20:14; Rev_21:8

“because all sinned” All humans sin in Adam corporately (i.e., inherited a sinful state and a sinful propensity.) Because of this each person chooses to sin personally and repeatedly.

The Bible is emphatic that all humans are sinners both corporately and individually (cf. 1Ki_8:46; 2Ch_6:36; Psa_14:1-2; Psa_130:3; Psa_143:2; Pro_20:9; Ecc_7:20; Isa_9:17; Isa_53:6; Rom_3:9-18; Rom_3:23; Rom_5:18; Rom_11:32; Gal_3:22; 1Jn_1:8-10).

Yet it must be said that the contextual emphasis (cf. Rom_5:15-19) is that one act caused death (Adam) and one act causes life (Jesus). However, God has so structured His relationship to humanity that human volition is a significant aspect of “lostness” and “justification.”

Humans are volitionally involved in their future destinies! They continue to choose sin or they choose Christ.

They cannot affect these two choices, but they do volitionally show to which they belong!

The translation “because” is common, but its meaning is often disputed. Paul used eph’ hô in 2Co_5:4; Php_3:12; and Php_4:10 in the sense of “because.” Thus each and every human chooses to personally participate in sin and rebellion against God. Some by rejecting special revelation, but all by rejecting natural revelation (cf. Rom_1:18 to Rom_3:20).
Rom_5:13-14 This same truth is taught in Rom_3:20; Rom_4:15 and Act_17:30.

God is fair. Humans are only responsible for what is available to them. This verse is speaking exclusively of special revelation (OT, Jesus, NT), not natural revelation (Psa_19:1-6; Rom_1:18-23; Rom_2:11-16).
Notice that the NKJV sees the comparison of Rom_5:12 as separated by a long parenthesis (cf. Rom_5:13-17) from its conclusion in Rom_5:18-21.
Rom_5:14
NASB, NKJV,
NJB “death reigned”
NRSV “death exercised dominion”
TEV “death ruled”

The hermeneutical approach to Scripture @bdavidc and I had enough from you and your baseless insinuations.

J.

Welcome to the community. Care to elaborate? I do agree life goes on. It is where you go that is the question.

Peter

1 Like

There are no “baseless insinuations.” I have only pointed you back to the text itself. When Scripture speaks plainly, the right hermeneutic is to submit to what is written, not to explain it away.

You keep flooding the thread with commentary, rabbinic sayings, traditions, and human explanations. None of that answers the simple point. I am not arguing with your sources. I am telling you those sources are not Scripture. Jesus warned about this kind of thing when He said people end up “teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” ~Matthew 15:9. When someone leans on outside material instead of the plain Word, the result is confusion. Why you don’t understand the Bible is beyond me.

You asked for the verses. I gave you the verses. You did not deal with the verses. You added paragraphs of outside opinion to soften what the passage already says plainly. But the Bible is clear when we read it without importing outside ideas.

Romans 5 does not need commentary to say what it says. Here are God’s words again, printed so you can read them directly.

Romans 5:12 - “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men because all sinned.”

Romans 5:18 - “Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation. Even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.”

Romans 5:19 - “For as by one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners. So by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.”

1 Corinthians 15:22 - “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Psalm 51:5 - “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity and in sin my mother conceived me.”

Job 14:4 - “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one.”

Ephesians 2:1 - “You were dead in trespasses and sins.”

Ephesians 2:3 - “We were by nature children of wrath.”

John 3:6 - “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.”

None of these verses contain your rabbinic categories. None contain a “two yetzers” system. None rely on a commentary’s framework. They simply say mankind fell in Adam, and we enter the world already fallen. That is the biblical reason death reigns. Scripture says it plainly.

You keep saying I am misunderstanding you, but the issue is not me misunderstanding you. The issue is you resisting the straightforward words of God and replacing them with layers of explanation that Scripture never gives. Paul warned about this very thing when he said not to “go beyond what is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

You asked whether we sinned in Adam. The text already answered:

• Death came to all through one man.
• Condemnation came to all through one man.
• The many were made sinners through one man’s disobedience.
• In Adam all die.

You do not need commentary to see that. You only need to accept what the verses say.

You accuse me of having “baseless insinuations,” yet everything I have said is simply reading the verses as written. The moment Scripture is quoted, you change the subject to lexicons, rabbis, traditions, theology structures, or commentary paragraphs. That is exactly why Jesus said some have “ears that hear not” ~Matthew 13:15. The problem is not comprehension. The problem is unwillingness to accept the plain truth.

I am staying with Scripture. You can reject my words if you want, but do not pretend the verses are unclear. They speak for themselves. Whether you will submit to them is between you and the Lord. That is all I am addressing, nothing more.