Do people of different faiths/religions go to Heaven?

General Faith
162

@Johann

I don’t want to straight up disagree with you–because I don’t. But I do feel inclined to quibble on some details.

Semi-Pelagianism: I am unaware of anyone who actively identifies as Semi-Pelagian; this tends to be a polemical accusation made rather than a formal position. Arminianism is accused of being Semi-Pelagian by those who disagree with it. But I don’t believe any Arminian would actually embrace any association with Pelagius. It’s like the old accusation of Semi-Arianism, applied to the Macedonian heresy (aka the Pneumatomachi) as a way of identifying them with Arius as a form of polemic against them. Polemics is not intrinsically wrong, but if trying to present a neutral list of positions, then offering polemical terminology is less helpful. To be clear: I think the charge of Semi-Pelagianism can often be a valid polemic and criticism. But should be understood in that context.

Federal Headship: As best as I know, this is largely a concept borne out of the Reformed tradition and probably fits best within a Reformed context, would it not? As Federal Headship is intimately connected with Federal Representation: A position in which Adam as the federal head and representative of humanity brings ruin and, more important to the position, that Christ becomes a new Federal Head/Representative so that Christ in bearing God’s wrath (vis-a-vis Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory) also becomes our Federal Representative receiving the just punishment for sins on our behalf. St. Augustine, as best as I understand him, understands that we inherit Adam’s original sin and original guilt because of our lineal descent from him: It’s Concupiscience, the broken lusts of the flesh which we inherit as Adam’s offspring, and an inherited guilt in our own flesh.

The Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Reformed traditions are highly indebted to St. Augustine; though it is abundantly obvious that each interprets Augustine differently. For example the Lutheran position is that Concupiscience isn’t merely the innate desire to sin but is itself sin. I don’t know if that is how the Reformed see it as well, but that is the Lutheran view (in contradistinction to the Roman Catholic view).

I would continue, but I wasn’t paying attention to the time and must leave for work.

163

You may continue @TheologyNerd when you have time.

Though I am not inclined toward Reformed theology, and I find myself more persuaded by the pre- Augustine Early Church Fathers.

More than willing to have a dialogue with you brother.

Shalom.

J.

164

I agree with you. We can forgive them. And love our neighbor. But not the sin. So if we see someone sinning. If we truly love them. We should at least pount it out. I would think anyway.

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165

You are not defending Scripture. You are weaponizing it to silence Scripture.

The passages you cite condemn men who claim God has spoken when He has not. They do not condemn men who repeat what God has already spoken. You have reversed their meaning to protect yourself from correction. That is not reverence. That is evasion.

God has already defined sin. “By the law is the knowledge of sin” ~Romans 3:20. When His Word names sin, repeating it is not taking His name in vain. It is honoring it. To accuse someone of false prophecy for quoting Scripture is to accuse God’s Word itself.

Jesus did not forbid correction. He condemned hypocrisy. He said remove the log so you can see clearly to correct your brother ~Matthew 7:5. You want the log removed and the correction forbidden. Christ never gave that option.

You cite Deuteronomy and Jeremiah as if they forbid warning, yet Scripture commands warning. “Cry aloud, spare not… shew my people their transgression” ~Isaiah 58:1. “Exhort, rebuke, with all longsuffering and doctrine” ~2 Timothy 4:2. Which command are you obeying when you tell people to stop speaking truth?

This is not about love. Scripture says love rejoices in the truth, not in silence ~1 Corinthians 13:6. When truth threatens comfort, the flesh looks for refuge. You found yours by twisting passages meant to expose false prophets into tools to shut down biblical rebuke.

That is exactly what Scripture warns against. “They loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil” ~John 3:19. God’s Word was given to expose, not to be repurposed as a shield against exposure.

If quoting Scripture and calling for repentance makes someone a false teacher, then the prophets were false, John the Baptist was false, Jesus was false, and the apostles were false. Scripture does not support your position. It indicts it.

166

Looking back, I think I touched upon the main points I wanted to nitpick. I mostly just wanted to point out that Semi-Pelagian is best understood as polemical, and that it’s my understanding that Federal Headship is better understood as Reformed than Augustinian. Augustine is a big player in the history of Western theology and as such Roman Catholic and Protestant theologians of almost all varieties are indebted to Augustine. As a Lutheran my bias is that Lutheranism is most Augustinian (in the same way that my Lutheran bias is that Lutheranism is most Pauline, most Biblical, etc) I have to confess that it is a bias and both my Roman Catholic and Reformed brethren make equally strong appeals to the Doctor of Grace. As such I would describe the entire Western theological enterprise as, functionally, Augustinian. And I would consider that a good thing (I like Augustine).

167

Amen! This is an old tactic used primarily by those who oppose what Scripture actually says. Sadly, many “new churches” have popped up using this method, and or simply doing away with Scripture altogether to progress their lies.

Peter

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168

I persused this Lutheran site and can tell you it is biblically sound @TheologyNerd

https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/doctrine/brief-statement-of-lcms-doctrinal-position#:~:text=Doctrinal%20Positions%20of%20the%20LCMS

And especially this.

Stay strong in Messiah.

J.

169

I have never said it is wrong to hold people accountable, or to confront someone who has done wrong. What I am saying is, Scripture also warns of the danger of judging others. There is a clear difference, and the line gets blurred.

The goal of confrontation is to uphold boundaries, mend relationships, restore people to one another and God. But if your goal is to destroy a sinner, then you aren’t holding them accountable. You are judging them. And you stand directly against Christ if you do this.

I am saying there are rules of conduct when it comes to confrontation, of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate when a confrontation is done. There are rules of engagement you must abide by to be right by God when you hold someone accountable.

I am saying that your own sinfulness can lead you astray in your endeavor to confront someone else. You can cause more harm than good not because you thought you were justified to act but because the evil in your heart wanted to destroy another person- steal, kill, destroy.

I am also arguing that not everyone agrees with your interpretation of what sin is. Not all believers agree, and not all churches agree. So where does the conversation go if I am a tattooed, pierced, chain smoking hippy with long hair who goes to the bar every weekend and my conscience is perfectly clear because I am washed in the blood of Christ and I see nothing wrong with these things, and neither does my church, but you and your church do think it’s a sin?

My hair, my beer, my smokes, my tats and my piercings are all between me and Christ, me and God, not me and you or me and your church where I don’t go and don’t care to. Just because you find it repulsive, does not mean I am overstepping your boundaries or affecting your life or living in rebellion against God’s Will unless God tells me so. But should the smoke bother you, I would be more than happy to go outside or away from you. Or I might ask you to move if you are approaching me and my friends where we have been parked for an hour because to me that is fair. Because in that instance, we are standing our ground, and you are the intruder in that moment.

The Bible says lots of things that are no longer culturally relevant. Some churches choose to believe some rules still apply, others don’t.

You can argue and believe they all matter all you want to, you can scream and rant about it and quote every Scripture under the sun regarding it until you are blue in the face and lose your voice, but your reaction and behavior will not do anything but push people away from you and whatever version of Christ you preach about. If you speak of Christ. That is the consequence for making people feel unwelcomed. Sooner or later, you yourself are not welcomed near them. They see you and dread your existence because they know you will only try to force your views on them rather than trying to be a good neighbor and keep the peace.

Boundaries are glorious. Respecting them is a huge part of the Law. But you know what matters more? LOVE. The Ten Commandments, the Big 10, are all about LOVE. As Christ tell us, and Commanded of us. As the Gospels tell us. As the Epistles tell us. The highest 2 commandments, of all things given to us by the Prophets and handed down by the Scribes, that Actually comes from God, is LOVE. LOVE God. And LOVE your neighbor as you LOVE yourself. Or, (LOVE your neighbor. LOVE yourself. As these are intricately interconnected.)

And you can’t do that, you can’t LOVE anyone, by stepping on toes and overstepping boundaries and being a nuisance.

And respecting boundaries is a huge part of that. Being mindful of the wellbeing of others is a huge part of that.

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170

What you just wrote genuinely resonates with my spirit, brother.

Stay strong in Messiah.

J.

171

@Johann @Tillman
You are correct that the Scripture warns against hypocritical judgment, but the Scripture never says that believers should stop making moral judgments. Jesus said to remove the beam from your own eye so that you may see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye ~Matthew 7:1–5. The goal is not silence. The goal is clarity. Jesus did not say, “leave the speck alone.”

You say that confrontation must never “destroy” someone. Scripture never says emotional outcome is the test of whether confrontation is right. Truth often wounds before it heals. “Faithful are the wounds of a friend” ~Proverbs 27:6. When Peter preached in Acts 2 the crowd was “cut to the heart” ~Acts 2:37. That was not cruelty. That was conviction, and it led to repentance.

You repeatedly frame love as “not offending” and “honoring personal boundaries.” Scripture does not define love that way. “This is the love of God, that we keep his commandments” ~1 John 5:3. Love does not mean to leave people comfortable in sin. Love warns. Love corrects. Love calls people back to God. “If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him” ~Luke 17:3. Rebuke is before restoration.

Your example about tattoos and drinking and smoking and lifestyle choices completely misses the point. The Bible does not say every personal habit is a salvation issue. But the Bible does say believers are not free to define righteousness for themselves. “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death” ~Proverbs 14:12. Conscience is not the final authority. God’s Word is. A clear conscience does not equal a clean life ~1 Corinthians 4:4.

You also claim that parts of Scripture are no longer culturally relevant. That is directly against Jesus. “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away” ~Matthew 24:35. God’s standards do not change because of time, culture, or church disagreement. Truth is not decided by majority vote. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4.

You say that love matters more than boundaries and correction. Scripture says love and truth cannot be separated. “Speaking the truth in love” ~Ephesians 4:15. Love without truth becomes permissiveness. Truth without love becomes brutality. Scripture commands both, not one at the expense of the other.

Here is the bottom line. The Bible never teaches that peace, comfort, or being liked is the measure of faithfulness. Jesus Himself said His truth would divide ~Matthew 10:34–36. That does not excuse rudeness, but it does eliminate the idea that offense proves wrongdoing.

Love is not letting people define sin for themselves. Love is pointing people to what God has already said even if it costs relationships. That is not standing against Christ. That is following Him.

172

No one is saying this.

If you don’t care about someone’s emotional well being, then you don’t care about any of their being. People have an emotional and a psychological component that matters just as much as their physical body. If someone is Suicidal and you care more about telling them why it’s wrong through Scripture than whether they jump off a building, there is clearly something wrong that needs to be looked at in your own heart and mind. Something is missing or not making a connection somewhere. You should absolutely care about the whole person, not just the body.

And to be honest, I am not reading anything else you write. I have explained my position a number of times, I have answered the same arguments again and again, and I have been wrongly accused of holding positions I don’t hold while my valid points go ignored and unanswered. I have come to believe you are just interpreting what I write as you please so you can make an argument that has nothing to do with what I wrote at all. Fitting my words, and God, in a box you can control.

And I honestly think you just want to argue with someone and I am not the person who is going to keep trading barbs with you to stay locked in a battle that will never end. I am the person who will walk away from you to keep my own peace. And believe me when I tell you, I have Absolute Peace about what I believe, who I am, and what I do. I have Absolute Peace in the God that I believe in. Nothing you or anyone else could ever change that or shake it.

Someday you may come to understand what I wrote. Or maybe you can’t for whatever reason. Or maybe you are just a chaotic trickster type who lives for the madness and not the Truth. I don’t know and I don’t need to. I set you free into the loving hands of God knowing in Faith that whatever the Truth is regarding you and your journey in this life, you will meet the Truth face to face someday when it’s time, when it’s just you and God. And one way or another, on that day, you will get what you need. As will I someday. As will we all. Farewell.

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173

I hope the same for you. Nobody here said you should not care about a person’s emotional/psychological health. Scripture is full of commands to love, patience, gentleness, compassion, etc. “The servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men” ~2 Timothy 2:24. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the standard you are using.

Scripture never teaches that emotional outcome determines whether truth may be spoken. It teaches the opposite. Truth is spoken because it is truth, even when it hurts. “Faithful are the wounds of a friend” ~Proverbs 27:6. Conviction is not cruelty. Warning someone of sin is not violence. Silence in the face of danger is not love.

Your suicide example is a false comparison. Scripture never tells us to lecture a person in crisis without care. But it also never tells us to withhold truth because it might distress someone. Jesus spoke truth to people who walked away grieved, offended, and angry ~John 6:60–66. He did not adjust His words to preserve their emotional equilibrium.

You keep shifting the issue from biblical authority to emotional framing. Scripture does not do that. Love is defined by obedience to God, not by how safe the conversation feels. “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments” ~1 John 5:3. Compassion that refuses correction is not biblical love. It is fear of man.

You also claim you are being misrepresented while simultaneously refusing to engage further. Walking away is your choice, but it does not make your position correct. “He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul” ~Proverbs 15:32. Peace that is never tested by truth is not proof of truth. “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death” ~Proverbs 14:12.

As for personal remarks and character judgments, Scripture warns against that too. “The wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God” ~James 1:20.

So here is what we need to do. We must care for people wholly. We must speak truth faithfully. We must not make emotions the judge of obedience. Scripture never pits love against truth. It binds them together. “Speaking the truth in love” ~Ephesians 4:15.

One day, as you said, we will all stand before Him. And on that day, peace will not be measured by how calm we felt, but by whether we obeyed what He said. That’s all.

174

I only have two things to say:

“Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. ** **Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.” Ephesians 4:2-3

And the second is:

** **If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Romans 12:18

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175

Nothing wrong with a healthy, edifying debate @Bestill if it’s not for you, you can move on. No one is breaking the ToS here.

Shalom.

J.

176

Thanks Johann. It’s not for me, but I understand where you’re coming from.

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I regularly listen to debates between rabbis and Christian apologists, as well as imams engaging Christian apologists at Speakers’ Corner, people like Sam Shamoun and others. These exchanges are often intense and confrontational, with real heat and sharp disagreement, and at times things have even turned physical, Jay Smith himself has been knocked unconscious more than once.

That environment has shaped both how I listen and how I speak. It is direct, unapologetic, and willing to engage hard claims head on, because truth is not tested in comfort, but in fire.

Why I appreciate them.

J.

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178

That’s fine. Not my cup of tea, but if you and the others are enjoying it, then continue.

179

Not everything is as it appears to be, @Bestill.

The rules of engagement are tilted by intrigue and intention. What one says is not always what they mean. There is an illusion that has come over like a veil to blind and lead many astray. And multiple voices may be a single mind working with the appearance of many to complete a single objective.

There are those in this world right now reshaping narratives to control hearts and minds, to have sway, to effect influence and control over the masses including the Church. I am attempting to remind many of a compass that will guide when all other lights go dark. Those who challenge me may mean no harm. But it could be that they do not want that message of lighthouses, compasses, and anchors, or solid rocks to be heard when confusion better helps the enemy. So they may seek to drown out whatever light may shine with twisting words and peer pressure.

What we think we know may not be true at all. So guard your footing and trust no one that you do not actually know, including me, and can test or trust with your life. The war for the hearts and minds of mankind is ablaze. As will be the world if the wrong ones gain control and lead us forward. The enemy is here, now, moving. And everything is in place for a perfect storm.

Trust God to guide you, and when you know you are on the right path, help those you can. The days ahead of us will be dire. Lawlessness reigns. The Destroyer has come. And the Sons of God must take their stand against the Darkness, and stand their Ground, to protect the City, to defend the Kingdom, to face the Enemy as only they can- with God moving through them revealing Him to the world. Pushing the battle back at the gate when all hope seems lost.

This is a game of shadows, where what is Real and what is True and what is Eternal must come face to face with that which is illusion, lie, sickness, and distortion. Sin. Where the Eternal show their metal and prove their Worth.

LOVE is the only thing that is Eternal. And without it, we and this world are nothing. We are lost and will fade into the night like any nightmare that bares no substance.

Gold and silver cannot save your soul. It may run the Nations, but they too will fade with time. LOVE is the Only Way.

Not Vengeance, Maliciousness, Retaliation, Bullying, Scheming, Lying, Cheating, Stealing. Not Greed, or Jealousy. Not building walls and keeping others out and hording everything for yourself. Not judging those who are different from yourself or believe differently from you and trying to destroy them for it. LOVE alone.

LOVE, which holds a family and a community together. LOVE, which forgives sin, which makes and keeps the Peace. LOVE, which is Patient with our own failings and the failings of others. LOVE, which holds all things in a state of Grace, giving it time to learn and grow and overcome, and thrive. LOVE, which nudges forward and pulls back. LOVE, which heals, soothes, mends, and moves to help, protect, defend, guard, and save. LOVE, which waits, and longs for restoration and wholeness and for the good of all to prevail over evil and death and the extinction of Life. LOVE, which instructs, confronts wrongdoings, and pursues a form of Justice that restores people back to their families and communities as a productive member. LOVE which transforms us from being hellbent on destruction into a New Creation.

LOVE, as it is revealed to us all through the Teachings and Person of Christ. Let us fill our entire being with that Wisdom, that Sprit that Saves. That calls us Sons and Daughters, even when the whole world abandons us and counts us as nothing and turns away. Christ is right there in the ally, in the valley, in the darkness, to guide us home. Let us hear that Voice that guides us home and transforms all things and makes them new again. If we agree about nothing else, let us at least agree on that.

And don’t discount poetry and flowery words as emotional rubbish. Remember, in the past God has spoken through poets, and bards, and proverbs. King David sang psalms and danced naked before all to the despair of his wife, his son King Solomon spoke Great Wisdom in his day and garnered audiences from throughout the world who sought to know that Wisdom, the Prophets had visions and dreams and warnings for their people to guide them, the Messiah Joseph had dreams and knew their meanings and saved a multitude on to many generations. And whether you accept it or not, God speaks to this day and every day that came before to those who will listen. He speaks to children, the elderly, and all peoples scattered about in all nations across the globe. Who will listen. And He guides them, their hearts, their minds, whether they know it or not. But those who make their hearts ready give His Word a place to settle, to take root and sprout, into a bushel that leads to everlasting life. Nourished by waters that never make us thirsty again. To yield fruit that lasts, that no Destroyer can ever wipe away again.

That is the future I aspire to help. And that is my calling. A calling shared by many across this globe. To till the land, make it ready, to plant seed, and to grow a harvest that will last.

The world distracts us, the Darkness hides our eyes, but God is a Light that never goes out and never will. We may fail to see and understand, to hear and listen and know His Word, but God is ever Present and With US. He is not silent. We are not alone. We have just turned away. It is time to turn back and magnify that Light. That Word. That Spirit. That Truth. That LOVE. It is the only Way home.

180

I would say without a doubt..?? Free of sin?good point! Nothing can convict me but he who judges me!

181

Amen. Perhaps @Tillman

Perhaps if you let go of feelings and actually learn what God says about love, you would be able to grow in Faith and be freed by the Truth. Simply put, what you keep saying about Love is not true.

See, that is not true at all. You ask questions, people give you Biblical answers, in the hope you will see the Truth, and you reject them. You think you and your feelings are more correct than God’s Word. That is simply wrong.

I understand you are frustrated because people choose the Word over your feelings; however, if you ask a question in a Faith-Based, Bible Based group, expect the truth. Which is what? Faith-Based, Bible Based answer. At least that is what you will get from me.

Peter

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