Do You Believe Prayer Works?

Whether Prayer ‘ works ‘ is irrelevant. We are commanded to pray, just as we are commanded to live a ‘ holy ‘ lifestyle.

Prayer is us communicating with our Heavenly Father, he is not a divine ‘ sugar daddy ‘ pouring out gifts on us.

He is the Awesome Holy Creator and redeemer of us. Knowing who and what he is changes how we view him and react to him.

Prayer is part of our interaction, something we do and yes sometimes we see results, sometimes we wonder what God is upto, but we continue for just as God is steadfast so we have to be.

1 Like

@Truthseek

You said:

I surely can offer an explanation, although I am unqualified to do so, but I think such an endeavor would be difficult in this forum atmosphere anyway. I think we need to start a bit further back. We need to start on your side of the gate.

People of faith believe God has revealed Himself to mankind, and recorded His revelation of Himself in the Bible.

KINGDOM

In the bible God reveals the scope of The Kingdom of God (shorthand=KoG). I am not speaking of “heaven” as people classically think of it; the KoG is not “another place” as it is often spoken of. You are a person who, by self-declaration, relies on reason and common sense. A “reasonable” way to explain the KoG to someone like you is the container that holds, among other things, our universe. The same universe that holds all galaxies, even the galaxy that contains our solar system in which we find our little planet earth. As such, the KoG is not another place, but the greater realm in which all creation resides. Since it is unobservable from our vantage point, and untestable by even our most advance scientific methods, it requires Divine revelation for us to know it exists. It is a kingdom, and therefore has a king; a monarch who presides over it all. You, and I, and all of the over eight-billion people on this planet are subjects of this great kingdom, (although not all are citizens). Also, everyone of the over 117 billion persons who have ever existed are also permanent subjects of the KoG. Think of the KoG in these terms.

As a self-proclaimed agnostic, you are stating that you do not believe the KoG even exists; it is untestable, and so improbable. From my perspective, as a citizen of the KoG, this disbeleif is like blind guppy, swimming in the middle of the ocean, not believing in the existence of water. (not intending any offence)

LIFE

Next, God has also revealed to us His concept of Life. One who relies on reason and common sense usually defines life as the continuation of biological processes; growth and self-repair at the cellular level. These processes are observable and testable. Death is therefore seen as the cessation of these biological processes. This is reasonable and common sense. God, who is the creator of life, reveals that life is not dependent on or hindered by biological processes. In fact, the biological part of Life is described as a brief moment. Life, as revealed by God is the state of being IN Jesus, the wellspring of Life. Life emanates from Jesus, and those who are in Jesus are in Life regardless of the state of your biology. Being IN Jesus is described as a personal relationship with Him, a relationship of mutual love and continual fellowship. Death, therefore, is the state of a created being who is not in Jesus who has no personal relationship, who even doubts his very existence. This is the description of the vast majority of the 117 billion people who have ever walked this planet. Life in Jesus is rendered unreasonable because it is unobservable and untestable by any scientific analyses. But any reasonable person must admit that being unobservable and untestable does not make something untrue.

FAITH

God has also revealed faith. Faith is the ability to take God at His word; to accept that God has spoken and everything He has said is unassailable truth. Reasonable people believe all kinds of things that are unobservable and untestable; reasonable people accept many things that are unseen as substantive; their reason offers convincing evidence of many things that are only hoped for. i.e. Reasonable people believe in the back side of the moon, although they have never seen it personally; reasonable people believe they will see tomorrow, even though it has not arrived yet.

Common sense and reason are great gifts from our Creator, but without the ability to apply them in faith to the truths that God has revealed about Himself and His kingdom, mankind has lost his grasp on The Truth. Reason and common sense have encouraged mankind to accept deceptive lies as truth. These lies lead him into sin, and sin results in death (spiritual death, not the cessation of biological processes, you understand). No one has escaped being subjected to this futility, being the victim of deception; not me, not you, not anyone.

GOSPEL

This is where the Good news enters. We have all been deceived, we have all accepted lies, we have all sinned, and we have all died (been separated from God) because of it. The Good news is God has personally provided a way, at His own GREAT EXPENSE, a redemption to purchase us back from the clutches of eternal death. The purchase price was the sacrificial death of Himself, the perfect sinless lamb, nailed to a cruel cross of public shame and rejection, buried to rise again to Life, to lead us into His presence. This was His demonstration of His great love for you. Jesus remains as a gate through which you must pass, from death to life. As an agnostic, you are stating you are outside this gate, you are residing in death, you are in dire need of life.

PRAYER
Communication is only possible within the ranks of the living. The dead do not converse with the living. Get Life, then effective prayer will follow.

How does this sit with you, @Truthseek? Does this ring true to you? Is this the Truth you Seek?

KP

1 Like

I am not following your point. Can you elaborate? Thanks.

Excellent response, sad TruthSeek is unable to understand.

Peter

Here is the remaining response.

FAITH

God has also revealed faith. Faith is the ability to take God at His word; to accept that God has spoken and everything He has said is unassailable truth. Reasonable people believe all kinds of things that are unobservable and untestable; reasonable people accept many things that are unseen as substantive; their reason offers convincing evidence of many things that are only hoped for. i.e. Reasonable people believe in the back side of the moon, although they have never seen it personally; reasonable people believe they will see tomorrow, even though it has not arrived yet.

Common sense and reason are great gifts from our Creator, but without the ability to apply them in faith to the truths that God has revealed about Himself and His kingdom, mankind has lost his grasp on The Truth. Reason and common sense have encouraged mankind to accept deceptive lies as truth. These lies lead him into sin, and sin results in death (spiritual death, not the cessation of biological processes, you understand). No one has escaped being subjected to this futility, being the victim of deception; not me, not you, not anyone.

Your definition of faith, above, seems consistent with mine. It does, however, imply an element of uncertainty, albeit small. This to me is a significant point and is quite often overlooked by Christians. Many will say, for example, “God loves you”, or “God answers all prayers”, when in reality they do not know 100% for sure. That is why it is called faith. You wouldn’t say “I have faith that the sun will come up in the morning” because you know 100% it will. If there were a change, even small, that it wouldn’t come up then you might say you have faith that it will.

And yes, reasonable people do “believe all kinds of things unobservable and untestable”, but it is always based on a degree of likelihood of it being true. Like the word “faith”, “belief” also implies a level of uncertainty. The stronger the evidence, the stronger the belief, as I’m sure you’d agree.

In your final paragraph above, you speak of truth. Unlike “faith’ and “belief”, “truth” implies 100% certainty. I feel like the use of the word “truth”, including “The Truth” (God’s truth), is a bit misleading for obvious reasons.

Also, I’m not convinced that mankind has lost its grasp on The Truth (God’s truth) due to the use of reason and common sense steering them in the direction of deceptive lies disguised as truth. Could you expand on that?

GOSPEL

This is where the Good news enters. We have all been deceived, we have all accepted lies, we have all sinned, and we have all died (been separated from God) because of it. The Good news is God has personally provided a way, at His own GREAT EXPENSE, a redemption to purchase us back from the clutches of eternal death. The purchase price was the sacrificial death of Himself, the perfect sinless lamb, nailed to a cruel cross of public shame and rejection, buried to rise again to Life, to lead us into His presence. This was His demonstration of His great love for you. Jesus remains as a gate through which you must pass, from death to life. As an agnostic, you are stating you are outside this gate, you are residing in death, you are in dire need of life.

So, the forgiveness of sins and the link to Jesus dying on the cross has been an area of relatively deep thought for me. To be absolved of our sins and “saved” Christianity says Jesus had to die on the cross. The link between Him having to go through this and the washing of our sins is difficult to connect. I know you say it was His way of showing His love for us, which is fine, but that still doesn’t connect the dots to paving our way to heaven. I am aware it is what written that way, but common sense suggests no link between these 2 things. I just feel like there are much better ways to “earn” your way to heaven than believing in Jesus. After all, couldn’t that be considered even a bit narcissistic, or arrogant? Jesus basically telling us you can do whatever you want but the only way you will make it to heaven is to believe in Me. Think of it this way. There are 2 guys. One is a terrible person. He’s a lying, cheating, person. He’s a thief, a murderer, a bad dude and a non-believer. The other guy is a great guy. He is generous to others, always kind and caring. Liked by all, but also not a believer in Jesus. Both guys die, but the first guy (the bad guy) confesses his sins to Jesus just before he dies. Who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? I already know the answer from the Christian position. The good guy goes to hell.

Finally, yes, if the Christian story is true then I am currently outside the gate. I am aware of that and my mission is to not only get back into the gate but to be an evangelist to the Word. That was my mission 10+ years ago. I was all on board and excited about it and truly miss the relationship I had with Jesus at that time. However, I cannot move past the gate by simply believing, nor do I think anyone should. I take this very seriously and see it as my life mission to continue to explore this wherever it takes me. I seek the truth.

PRAYER
Communication is only possible within the ranks of the living. The dead do not converse with the living. Get Life, then effective prayer will follow.

Throughout my entire life, which includes over 50 years of devotion to the Christian faith, have I ever heard from God through prayer. To me, this is ridiculous. I have had multiple one-way conversations with Him, some angrily, pleading with him to talk to me. He has not. To me, that’s not the sign of a loving god.

@TruthSeek

When it comes to God, we are all agnostic. And I think I mean that quite literally.

The word comes from the Greek agnosis [α-γνωσις] which simply means “not knowing.”

Is there a God? Is there no God? We simply don’t know, if by “know,” we mean, “are certain about the scientific facts.”

I am not sure why this is a scandalous thing to say. It seems quite biblical to me. In fact, the famous passage on faith in Hebrews 11 seems to say that faith can only exist for those who are agnostic.

“Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible . . . 8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance,obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going . . . 13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised . . .”

If we believe that our Christianity consists in what we know then you will not be able to accept what I am saying here. But if our Christianity consists of how we live, then what I say may be more palatable.

What makes one an agnostic, a Christian, or an atheist, is not whether or not we “know,” it is what we do with our “not knowing.”

Or, as I have become accustomed to saying, our faith is not in our “certainty” but in our “confidence,” and the difference between those two terms is trust.

So, then, for me, those who claim agnosticism are perhaps the most honest but the least courageous of all. They acknowledge something important about the human condition but also something largely uninteresting. “I am agnostic. I don’t know if there is a God or not.” Okay. Welcome to being human. What else ya got?

Of course, what they generally mean is, “and so I will choose to stay as detached as possible from the whole conversation. I will hedge my bets.” And I find that to be an uninteresting mode of living. The atheist and Christian then are like the woman who knows that she cannot know for sure if she will get hit by a car today, but goes out to live her life anyway. The agnostic is like the man who knows that he cannot know for sure if he will get hit by a car today, so he stays home.

The atheist and Christian may calculate the odds differently, but they still go out.
And in this way, the Christian and the atheist are more alike than different. We are all agnostic. But it is only the Christian and the atheist who are willing to take a risk. They both courageously make an existential stand when no conclusions are available.

Perhaps the Christian is the most imaginative and courageous of them all (as Hebrews 11 attests). Or, perhaps we are the most delusional and stupid. There’s typically a fine line between those. The Christian thrusts her agnosticism onto God, not knowing, but believing, not understanding, but trusting. Instead of living by the rules of others, out-rationalizing the rationalists, out-sciencing the scientists, the Christian ought to celebrate her ability to create, to out-imagine those without imagination. And this is not because we have more knowledge, it is because we have more trust.

I understand this may not be the Christianity that most Americans are used to.

In fact, everything I have said might sound downright anti-Christian. And maybe it is. I just don’t know.

We Are All Agnostic.

You agree? And permit me, then, to assume that the difficulty here is not the absence of Scriptural witness but a tendency to demand empirical verification where Scripture itself speaks plainly, for it stands written that the righteous shall live by faith, not by sight, measurement, or external proof.
Correct?

J.

My apologies, PeterC. I meant to attach to someone else.

Remaining response to KPuff

FAITH

God has also revealed faith. Faith is the ability to take God at His word; to accept that God has spoken and everything He has said is unassailable truth. Reasonable people believe all kinds of things that are unobservable and untestable; reasonable people accept many things that are unseen as substantive; their reason offers convincing evidence of many things that are only hoped for. i.e. Reasonable people believe in the back side of the moon, although they have never seen it personally; reasonable people believe they will see tomorrow, even though it has not arrived yet.

Common sense and reason are great gifts from our Creator, but without the ability to apply them in faith to the truths that God has revealed about Himself and His kingdom, mankind has lost his grasp on The Truth. Reason and common sense have encouraged mankind to accept deceptive lies as truth. These lies lead him into sin, and sin results in death (spiritual death, not the cessation of biological processes, you understand). No one has escaped being subjected to this futility, being the victim of deception; not me, not you, not anyone.

Your definition of faith, above, seems consistent with mine. It does, however, imply an element of uncertainty, albeit small. This to me is a significant point and is quite often overlooked by Christians. Many will say, for example, “God loves you”, or “God answers all prayers”, when in reality they do not know 100% for sure. That is why it is called faith. You wouldn’t say “I have faith that the sun will come up in the morning” because you know 100% it will. If there were a change, even small, that it wouldn’t come up then you might say you have faith that it will.

And yes, reasonable people do “believe all kinds of things unobservable and untestable”, but it is always based on a degree of likelihood of it being true. Like the word “faith”, “belief” also implies a level of uncertainty. The stronger the evidence, the stronger the belief, as I’m sure you’d agree.

In your final paragraph above, you speak of truth. Unlike “faith’ and “belief”, “truth” implies 100% certainty. I feel like the use of the word “truth”, including “The Truth” (God’s truth), is a bit misleading for obvious reasons.

Also, I’m not convinced that mankind has lost its grasp on The Truth (God’s truth) due to the use of reason and common sense steering them in the direction of deceptive lies disguised as truth. Could you expand on that?

GOSPEL

This is where the Good news enters. We have all been deceived, we have all accepted lies, we have all sinned, and we have all died (been separated from God) because of it. The Good news is God has personally provided a way, at His own GREAT EXPENSE, a redemption to purchase us back from the clutches of eternal death. The purchase price was the sacrificial death of Himself, the perfect sinless lamb, nailed to a cruel cross of public shame and rejection, buried to rise again to Life, to lead us into His presence. This was His demonstration of His great love for you. Jesus remains as a gate through which you must pass, from death to life. As an agnostic, you are stating you are outside this gate, you are residing in death, you are in dire need of life.

So, the forgiveness of sins and the link to Jesus dying on the cross has been an area of relatively deep thought for me. To be absolved of our sins and “saved” Christianity says Jesus had to die on the cross. The link between Him having to go through this and the washing of our sins is difficult to connect. I know you say it was His way of showing His love for us, which is fine, but that still doesn’t connect the dots to paving our way to heaven. I am aware it is what written that way, but common sense suggests no link between these 2 things. I just feel like there are much better ways to “earn” your way to heaven than believing in Jesus. After all, couldn’t that be considered even a bit narcissistic, or arrogant? Jesus basically telling us you can do whatever you want but the only way you will make it to heaven is to believe in Me. Think of it this way. There are 2 guys. One is a terrible person. He’s a lying, cheating, person. He’s a thief, a murderer, a bad dude and a non-believer. The other guy is a great guy. He is generous to others, always kind and caring. Liked by all, but also not a believer in Jesus. Both guys die, but the first guy (the bad guy) confesses his sins to Jesus just before he dies. Who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? I already know the answer from the Christian position. The good guy goes to hell.

Finally, yes, if the Christian story is true then I am currently outside the gate. I am aware of that and my mission is to not only get back into the gate but to be an evangelist to the Word. That was my mission 10+ years ago. I was all on board and excited about it and truly miss the relationship I had with Jesus at that time. However, I cannot move past the gate by simply believing, nor do I think anyone should. I take this very seriously and see it as my life mission to continue to explore this wherever it takes me. I seek the truth.

PRAYER
Communication is only possible within the ranks of the living. The dead do not converse with the living. Get Life, then effective prayer will follow.

Throughout my entire life, which includes over 50 years of devotion to the Christian faith, have I ever heard from God through prayer. To me, this is ridiculous. I have had multiple one-way conversations with Him, some angrily, pleading with him to talk to me. He has not. To me, that’s not the sign of a loving god.

QUESTIONS TO HELP YOUR FAMILY GROW
Week One:
What is the difference between truth and falsehood?
Read: Joshua 24:14, Hosea 4:1-6, Romans 1:18-21

Truth is whatever is in accordance with the way in which God created the world; falsehood is anything that goes against God’s reality, even if it still “exists” in a sense, in this fallen world.
Truth is more than just facts and appearances: truth is knowledge of what is right in God’s sight, rather than man’s alone.
Human beings have been created to seek truth, but we cannot know all truth in ourselves, and so we need God to lead us to the Truth; or we can easily be led astray by falsehood.
The devil is the “father of lies” (John 8:44), and he is behind every lie circulated in the world today; he can only be defeated by God’s Truth.
Week Two
How can we know the difference between truth and falsehood in the world?
Read: Proverbs 12:19, 1 John 4:1-5:20

Truth is always good — even when it is sometimes painful to discover or tell the truth, the ultimate result leads to increased righteousness and trust; falsehood, even when we grow accustomed to it, ultimately destroys.
Truth shows itself in acts of love.
The truth stretches our understanding: it frequently takes us some time to discover it behind the tangle of false agendas that surround us in our worldly circumstances — politically, socially, and materially.
Just because something is commonly accepted as “fact” does not make it true: it must be tested by the only Truth of God’s Word in order to discern whether it is in fact true or false.
Week Three:
What does the Bible mean by “truth”?
Read: Exodus 34:6, Psalm 85:7-13, Daniel 10:21, John 14:6 and 17:17

Truth, in Scripture, is one of the ways of describing Who God is — just as He is Love or Wisdom or every other good thing; so coming to understand Truth requires that we come to know God, not just “facts” of experience.
Jesus came to bring the truth — He is the Truth.
Truth must be exercised in love and righteousness — all these good things are bound up together, because they are all part of God’s Nature and shown to us by Him.
The ultimate Truth is therefore God Himself; while we may know the truth about other things without knowing God, it is only a partial knowledge of Truth until we know and acknowledge Him as the source and foundation of all Truth.
Week Four:
How can we know and apply truth practically?
Read: John 8:31-32, 16:7-13, and 18:37-38

As Pilate’s (unanswered) question shows, gradually coming to understand what the Truth is in each situation is not a one-time, simple matter; we have to turn to God for guidance in finding what the truth is for dealing with any new, unknown situation.
But the stronger we grow in His faith and wisdom granted to us, the more we will recognize the Truth when we see it working out in our world.
Truth has a very practical aspect: knowing what is true or false according to God’s reality helps us to determine what is right or wrong for us to do.
Truth helps us evaluate what we are doing in light of the ultimate purpose and outcome of all creation.

What is Truth? - C.S. Lewis Institute.

J.

Hey, KPuff. Thanks a lot for taking the time to put together some great feedback. Greatly appreciate it. I have provided my input below (in bold text) along with your feedback so you can follow easier. Unfortunately, it appears I have exceeded the 6,000 character limit so I had to break into 2 parts. I look forward to your feedback, or anyone elses.

I surely can offer an explanation, although I am unqualified to do so, but I think such an endeavor would be difficult in this forum atmosphere anyway. I think we need to start a bit further back. We need to start on your side of the gate.

People of faith believe God has revealed Himself to mankind, and recorded His revelation of Himself in the Bible.

Agreed.

KINGDOM

In the bible God reveals the scope of The Kingdom of God (shorthand=KoG). I am not speaking of “heaven” as people classically think of it; the KoG is not “another place” as it is often spoken of. You are a person who, by self-declaration, relies on reason and common sense. A “reasonable” way to explain the KoG to someone like you is the container that holds, among other things, our universe. The same universe that holds all galaxies, even the galaxy that contains our solar system in which we find our little planet earth. As such, the KoG is not another place, but the greater realm in which all creation resides. Since it is unobservable from our vantage point, and untestable by even our most advance scientific methods, it requires Divine revelation for us to know it exists. It is a kingdom, and therefore has a king; a monarch who presides over it all. You, and I, and all of the over eight-billion people on this planet are subjects of this great kingdom, (although not all are citizens). Also, everyone of the over 117 billion persons who have ever existed are also permanent subjects of the KoG. Think of the KoG in these terms.

As a self-proclaimed agnostic, you are stating that you do not believe the KoG even exists; it is untestable, and so improbable. From my perspective, as a citizen of the KoG, this disbeleif is like blind guppy, swimming in the middle of the ocean, not believing in the existence of water. (not intending any offence)

I concur for the most part with what you state above, however, I do disagree with your assumption that because I am an agnostic I do not believe in the KoG. I simply do not know. It cannot be ruled out. A blind guppy can still sense the presence of water through the touch and, therefore, can postulate its existence.

We continue to learn more about the “KoG” (universe) over time through advancements in technology and this will likely increase exponentially with the assistance of AI going forward. I agree with most that we will likely never reach a point of knowledge that allows us to say, with certainty, how we were created and who our creator is. The universe is truly a fascinating place and I do believe in a higher power.

LIFE

Next, God has also revealed to us His concept of Life. One who relies on reason and common sense usually defines life as the continuation of biological processes; growth and self-repair at the cellular level. These processes are observable and testable. Death is therefore seen as the cessation of these biological processes. This is reasonable and common sense. God, who is the creator of life, reveals that life is not dependent on or hindered by biological processes. In fact, the biological part of Life is described as a brief moment. Life, as revealed by God is the state of being IN Jesus, the wellspring of Life. Life emanates from Jesus, and those who are in Jesus are in Life regardless of the state of your biology. Being IN Jesus is described as a personal relationship with Him, a relationship of mutual love and continual fellowship. Death, therefore, is the state of a created being who is not in Jesus who has no personal relationship, who even doubts his very existence. This is the description of the vast majority of the 117 billion people who have ever walked this planet. Life in Jesus is rendered unreasonable because it is unobservable and untestable by any scientific analyses. But any reasonable person must admit that being unobservable and untestable does not make something untrue.

The dynamic biological process is certainly a main and obvious component of life. The progress we’ve made as humans to gain a better understanding of the inner workings and transformation within ourselves and nature in general is absolutely fascinating to me. I do understand the definition of Life, as you conveyed above, and the difference I may see as life. For me, death of our human body is the final stage life. For you, Life (upper case) involves a relationship with Jesus. I understand that. As an agnostic, I simply don’t know if something follows death. Having read/studied a good amount of the Bible, I have a good understanding of the Christian connection to Jesus, it’s just that I struggle believing it. Does that make sense?

Many Christians (perhaps all) base their arguments on what is stated in the Bible without first questioning the soundness of the Bible in the first place. I am not saying it is not true, I’m just saying I will not base any argument on a foundation that I am not sufficiently comfortable with first. For example, Christians will say “Look at a plant, how it grows, how it generates seeds to reproduce itself. This is certainly proof that God exists”, while I will look at it and say “this is very strong evidence of a higher power, but I do not know who that higher power is”. Your final sentence above is consistent with my belief, but I do not default to Jesus/God as the creator like Christians do.

Yes, I believe prayer (communication with God works). There are many stories and scriptures in the Bible that confirms God answers prayers. Maybe not in our timing and/or how we want Him to. From my personal experiences God hears and answers prayers. I don’t always know what is best for me, but as I cast all my concerns and cares upon God, He supplies all my needs. There are times when I don’t pray about a certain thing and God will reveal to me, I have not because I ask not. That’s God’s quick reminder for me to :folded_hands:t5:. That’s why I love Him and that’s why I trust Him​:heart:

@Truthseek

I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful responses. I feel if we were proximate, we would be fast-friends. For some reason, your responses came catawampus; the first came last and the last first (which, ironically is a biblical revelation of our finality (Matthew 20:16). Maybe that’s too much. Nevermind.)

I will respond to only a couple of “sticky” points that may help you in your TruthSeek quest, but until you are inside The Gate, most of what I tell you will continue to sound unreasonable and unreliable. Until then our conversation may be more satisfying speaking of things that reside only in the physical realm (like cooking, or auto mechanics). For reasons known only to God, most working knowledge of the KoG is esoteric. There is nothing I can do about that, wish I could.

The first clarification I will attempt is to disambiguate the definition of Christian faith. I am fully aware of how the term is used in common parlance; how modern conversations use the term to imply a degree of uncertainty. Your example of the rising sun is evidence. You personally would not use the term except to convey a small degree of uncertainty, as would most people. I fully understand and offer no push-back to your use of the word. I understand what you mean when you say “faith”.

The point I am trying to convey is that the Biblical use of the word is almost a different word altogether. The huge difference is that the Bible employs the word to mean 0% uncertainty. (Before you say it, I admit many, if not most professing Christians use the term as you do, and not as The Bibles does). The Bible defines Faith as “taking God at His word” (1), the very “modus operandi” of the “Just” (2), a pure gift, given by God as an expression of His grace (3), the provider of solid substance to the currently invisible, coupled with unfailing evidence of things that absolutely will come in the future (4), and a convincing belief beyond a shadow of doubt (5) (I’ll provide the biblical references in the numbered footnotes, not because I expect you to accept the bible as proof of anything, but only as a ready-reference to where The Bible speaks of faith in these ways if you’re interested.). Understanding Faith, not as a term of uncertainty, but as a term that conveys even greater certainty than the world can provide should help anyone see why, without Biblical Faith, no one can ever hope to please their Creator (6), for anyone who hopes to come into a relationship with God must sincerely acknowledge that He, The only Omnipotent, Holy God, objectively exists as their personal Creator, (not just as some amorphous influential “higher power”), and that God Himself will reward all who diligently seek Him; all who stand at The Gate longingly looking through the bars. His reward is Biblical Faith, which will replace any kind of faith that allows any degree of uncertainty. If you can accept this, you are standing near The Gate. God’s Faith is surety, as it is unasailable reliance on the only being that is 100% sure.

Second is your subtle (all-too-common) assertion that the sole object of salvation is a ticket to paradise (heaven) and it must somehow be earned. This falls so far short of the wonder of salvation, I hesitate to attempt to address it, having to yell through the bars of The Gate, hoping to be understood, as I do. Nevertheless, if God should grant you some understanding here, let me just say salvation is focused and centered on resurrection now, not on heaven in the by-and-by. That is, the dead being raised to new life to enjoy an eternal love relationship with our gracious savior Jesus. That Love relationship begins NOW, and has no end. This spiritual relationship was unavailable to us in our sinful (unholy) state; being dead, we could do nothing about our hopeless condition. Jesus Himself, by His grace, provided the only way to resurrect us, dreadfully unholy dead-folk, into the righteousness of His Holy Life; He, by Himself removed the unholiness that kept us apart. No one has ever “earned their way into heaven” as you suggest. To characterize salvation in those terms is to misunderstand it completely. We Christians are in the KoG NOW, (not someday) and we NOW walk by Faith, and not by our own feeble human understanding, what we can figure out, observe, and what we can test.

Lastly, Truth. You said:

I understand (partially), and I believe the disconnect is again in the definition. To you, “truth” is probably the way you say something is “real”. Truth may not always be obvious, and it’s often obfuscated by error or lack of factual information, but behind it all, there is still the truth. Unless you are of the ilk that think truth is subjective, malleable, and created at the pernicious whim of a faulty human mind, you are still among those that know truth is objective and unmalleable. God speaks of Truth as an expression of Himself. Therefore, he can call Himself The Truth, because He is objective realty, and all that is real is an expression of Himself. Therefore, Jesus could truthfully claim that He, Himself, is The Way, The Truth, and The Life(7). To a Christian, Truth is a person, and all that is True is an expression of that person. I know why that sounds “a bit misleading” but, ironically, anything “misleading” would be an expression of “untruth” (either error or deception). So, practically, linguistically, and truthfully, Truth cannot be misleading by definition.

I greatly enjoy our conversation. I hope you find it interesting, if not fulfilling.
KP (footnotes to follow)

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(1) Romans 4:5, 1 Corinthians 2:5, 2 Corinthians 5:7

(2) Habakkuk 2:4, Romans 1:7, Romans 5:1, Galatians 2:16, 3:8, Hebrews 10:38

(3) Romans 4:6, 4:16, 5:2, Galatians 3:22, Ephesians 2:8

(4) Hebrews 11:1 (plus the complete chapter)

(5) Romans 14:23,

(6) Hebrews 11:6

(7) (John 14:6|

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Thank you for your clarification of the Christian definition of both “faith’ and “truth”. I do feel it is bit odd that it requires clarification due to its difference with the commonly defined modern definition but I can’t argue it. And I apologize for the need to provide my previous response in 2 parts. I tried to make it easier to understand by including your comments along with mine but evidently it made it way to long and forced me to break it up. Hopefully this one will be within the 6,000 character limit (lol).

You commented on my use of the word “earn” as it related to getting to heaven. I suspected this might get some attention, as I am aware that Christians stand by the notion that you can’t earn you way in. I would argue that the requirement to believe in Jesus as a requirement to pass through the gates is a form or earning, but I know that may be a rather weak argument, as believing is not viewed as a behavior or achievement. Would you agree, however, that it is somewhat transactional (I’ll give you eternal life if you agree to believe that Jesus is my son? It’s conditional, not unconditional.

Lastly, I was hoping for some feedback on my hypothetical scenario about the 2 people and their destiny. Do you agree that the bad guy that accepts Jesus just before he dies is to be chosen over the guy who led a loving life?

Thanks for continuing to engage in discussions with me. I am aware that most of the email exchanges on this forum are non-confrontational. I am not opposed to that but it does little to help me with my mission.

@TruthSeek You said:

Yes, well, the definitions I provided you with are neither “common” or “modern”.

You said:

Yes, I understand. I have absolutely no issue with how you see the process as transactional. From my perspective, if you do not have the advantage of Faith, salvation as a transaction is the only perspective you have at your disposal. You are unable to see it any other way. That’s OK; It hinders nothing.

If you see salvation as transactional that that leaves you with your part of the transaction; it empowers you with volitionally choosing compliance to the terms or rejecting them. There may be a misunderstanding of the terms; you may not understand what God is offering, the terms of transaction may have been misread. As I stated before, you may not be hoping to gain what God is really offering, and so the actual outcome of God’s supposed transaction may not be what you are actually looking for. Allow me to inform you, God is under no obligation to honor any transaction of your own making. I don’t speak for God, but I advise If you write the transaction, God will surely reject it. In this eternal economy, God has all the leverage. So, my aim is to make sure you understand the supposed terms (as you say), that you are fully aware of what is actually being offered, and so you are then capable of making a properly informed decision. I can’t help wonder, as a “transaction” you must be curious what God gets from the deal. From your perspective, do you think the honor of your presence in heaven is worth God dying for? Are you worth it? If you think you are, you must think yourself to be pretty special (no offense intended). As transactions go, the deal seems pretty lop-sided, you must admit. As I see it, you personally have everything to gain, nothing to lose, and there is no cost to yourself. God gets stuck with the big bill, does all the giving, condescends to your level, all for privilege of providing badly-broken you with perpetual life, health, and happiness. From your transactional perspective, I can’t imagine anyone rejecting those gracious terms.

You also said:

The reason I didn’t comment is that chasing truth with hypotheticals is a fool’s errand. Hypotheticals, in order to make their point, must omit essential constituents for the goal of being impressive. I am usually not impressed. That said, I am a glutton for a good parable, an allegory, or a well-formed metaphor, so I will indulge you in that vein. Your illustration is famous, and on the surface seems to expose great injustice. As stated, it does sound unethical and tacitly accuses Holy God of wrong-doing (which is impossible if God is Holy). The problem(s) with the scenario you posit are manifold.

You said:

(A) You are measuring the two persons worth by their visible attitudes and actions. This is human evaluation. I understand; it’s common snd modern. Yours is not the perspective of the KoG (as you might have guessed), your judgement is incomplete and sees only the surface. In the KoG, both men are infinitely valuable creatures, made in God’s image, and yet both are guilty, completely unworthy of admission into the KoG. Their citizenship in the KoG is not dependent on how their particular culture (including you) evaluates their morality, even if you think your evaluation came from God Himself. There are things you, and your culture think are just fine and moral and God finds repulsive. There are behaviors you label as immoral and God, who sees through them into the interior, to their very core, into the heart of man, judges with perfect and righteous judgement. In your scenario, we cannot tell what was in the heart of these men, and what motivated them to act the way they did. Here we must rely on the only Righteous Judge.

(B) Your story assumes the goal is “going to heaven” or “avoiding hell”. I know this position is popular, and even embraced my many professing Christians. I have already covered this error previously, so to keep within my 6000-character limit, I won’t reiterate here.

(C) You state both are “unbelievers” but then base your argument on one of them being (or becoming) a believer. You say one was a rogue, but eventually obeyed God, and one was socially acceptable (his sins were unseen) but continued to disobey into his mortal death. Letmeask you, if you had two sons, and both rejected and disowned you, but one of them eventually returned, repented of his misdeeds, acknowledged his wrong in disowning you, and asked for forgiveness, while the other continued to deny you existed, who would you welcome into fellowship and the full protection of your estate?

I hope this is some food for thought. At my 6000 I think

KP

You left out Daniel who was greatly loved! His prayers were not heard until he set his heart on understanding. At that point two angels enter the scene with the answers he was seeking.

And you also left out Jesus’s profound statement. the only one who returns to heaven is he who came from heaven!

@Hungry
No doubt. I left out A LOT. Thanx for contributing.

KP

Your are definitely welcome and your words are on point. if you have light shine it. very interesting thoughts for sure! I would say good food for thought. So let us dine.

Thanks for your valuable comments. Please see my reply in bold below.

When it comes to God, we are all agnostic. And I think I mean that quite literally.

The word comes from the Greek agnosis [α-γνωσις] which simply means “not knowing.”

Is there a God? Is there no God? We simply don’t know, if by “know,” we mean, “are certain about the scientific facts.”

I am not sure why this is a scandalous thing to say. It seems quite biblical to me. In fact, the famous passage on faith in Hebrews 11 seems to say that faith can only exist for those who are agnostic.

I would agree. Good perspective.

“Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible . . . 8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance,obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going . . . 13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised . . .”

If we believe that our Christianity consists in what we know then you will not be able to accept what I am saying here. But if our Christianity consists of how we live, then what I say may be more palatable.

What makes one an agnostic, a Christian, or an atheist, is not whether or not we “know,” it is what we do with our “not knowing.”

Or, as I have become accustomed to saying, our faith is not in our “certainty” but in our “confidence,” and the difference between those two terms is trust.

I agree with above comments.

So, then, for me, those who claim agnosticism are perhaps the most honest but the least courageous of all. They acknowledge something important about the human condition but also something largely uninteresting. “I am agnostic. I don’t know if there is a God or not.” Okay. Welcome to being human. What else ya got?

I guess I’d have to disagree with your viewpoint that agnostics are least courageous among Christians and atheists (among other non-Christian religious groups, I presume). On the contrary, I believe it can be very courageous for someone to break from a very comfortable belief system like Christianity that promises eternal life after death, to question the foundation of the system first. I’m sure you’d agree that being voluntarily “outside the gate” for the reason of simply questioning the authenticity of it’s difficult to believe claims is high risk, and either reckless or courageous. And keep in mind I was a devoted Christian for much of my life up until around 10 years ago. I attribute my agnosticism to the fact that I am an open minded person.

Certainly, there’s a lot of information dating back hundreds and thousands years that can be pointed to that supports the claims of Christianity, but to not question it and take it as the truth, to me, is a bit naïve or even gullible. The situation many Christians experienced, including me, was a sort of (pardon the term) brainwashing from birth. My parents brought me up with the understanding that Jesus was as true as the grass was green. There was simply no questioning any other possibility. So of course I believed them and went on through much of my life living with that understanding. The belief in Santa Claus is actually a pretty good analogy to the power of the persuasion parents do have on their kids, particularly at a young age. And that certainly was found to be misleading (lol).

Of course, what they generally mean is, “and so I will choose to stay as detached as possible from the whole conversation. I will hedge my bets.” And I find that to be an uninteresting mode of living. The atheist and Christian then are like the woman who knows that she cannot know for sure if she will get hit by a car today, but goes out to live her life anyway. The agnostic is like the man who knows that he cannot know for sure if he will get hit by a car today, so he stays home.

The atheist and Christian may calculate the odds differently, but they still go out.
And in this way, the Christian and the atheist are more alike than different. We are all agnostic. But it is only the Christian and the atheist who are willing to take a risk. They both courageously make an existential stand when no conclusions are available.

Look, I know being a Christian can be no walk in the park. You’re faced with ridicule, pressure to attend church and donate 10% of your earnings, etc… Christianity is a very structured organization. If you learn and obey the rules in place for you it can be somewhat comforting. The guidelines are there, just follow them.

Perhaps the Christian is the most imaginative and courageous of them all (as Hebrews 11 attests). Or, perhaps we are the most delusional and stupid. There’s typically a fine line between those. The Christian thrusts her agnosticism onto God, not knowing, but believing, not understanding, but trusting. Instead of living by the rules of others, out-rationalizing the rationalists, out-sciencing the scientists, the Christian ought to celebrate her ability to create, to out-imagine those without imagination. And this is not because we have more knowledge, it is because we have more trust.

I understand this may not be the Christianity that most Americans are used to.

In fact, everything I have said might sound downright anti-Christian. And maybe it is. I just don’t know.

You agree? And permit me, then, to assume that the difficulty here is not the absence of Scriptural witness but a tendency to demand empirical verification where Scripture itself speaks plainly, for it stands written that the righteous shall live by faith, not by sight, measurement, or external proof.
Correct?

I would say that sums it up pretty good. Thank you for your comments.

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