For us prisoners

General Faith
21

Seriously, do you really need a crowd to think this over for you? You don’t need more “thoughts” from other people. You don’t need “support” or a cheering section. You need Scripture. That is the whole point. If you set aside all the extra voices and just read the Bible over and over, the truth becomes clear. God did not make His Word so complicated that only scholars or commentators can understand it.

This is not a lack of support problem. This is a problem of you trusting all these man-made layers over the simple text. “Thy word is truth” ~John 17:17. Not commentary. Not seminary dissertations. Not a tag list. Just the Word.

Stop looking for clarity in voices, and go back to the text. God speaks plainly. Man has been the one who clouds it.

And seriously, none of this would change even if everyone you tagged jumps in. If a person isn’t grounded in the Bible. If a person doesn’t TRUST the Bible. Their opinions simply hold no value in a debate over truth. There is only One Authority in this situation. The Word God has spoken. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4.

Truth is not based on who agrees with you. Truth is based on the Scripture alone. If a person stands on the Word, they’ll see it clearly. If they don’t, their defense won’t help you at all. This is why I keep sending you back to the text and someone opinion. Trust the word God gave us and stop trying to change it to say what you want it to say.

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Kind words from you @paulhinkle and well appreciated.

Stay strong in Messiah brother.

J.

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I do want to directly address this, because I’ve already made myself clear about what I’m doing. This is not about me “wanting to be right.” If that were the goal, this conversation would have ended a long time ago. I’m not hounding anyone. I’m holding to what Scripture actually says, nothing more and nothing less.

When someone teaches something that goes beyond the text, Scripture commands us to test it ~1 Thessalonians 5:21 and to correct it with the Word. That is all I’m doing. Wanting God’s Word to be right is not the same thing as wanting myself to be right.

So let’s be accurate here. I’m not promoting myself, I am pointing people the the truth of God’s word. This is a Christian forum. I’m simply refusing to step outside the boundaries God already set: “Do not go beyond what is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6. That’s the issue, and it has nothing to do with ego or trying to win an argument.

It has everything to do with letting Scripture be right. When someone teaches something the Bible does not say, the right response is not to apologize and pretend the disagreement doesn’t matter. God tells us to “test all things; hold fast what is good” ~1 Thessalonians 5:21. That means we measure the teaching, not the personalities.

You say Johann is “doing something right” because you enjoy his posts, but liking someone’s tone doesn’t make their doctrine true. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4. If the teaching steps outside what is written, it is wrong no matter how many people like it. Truth doesn’t change because someone is popular or because apologizing would make things quiet. Truth is truth because God said it. And Scripture already warned that many will prefer teachers who make them feel good instead of teachers who tell the truth. “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine… they will heap up for themselves teachers to tickle their ears” ~2 Timothy 4:3–4. My concern is guarding that truth, not winning approval.

This is something to debate when Scripture is being stretched beyond its boundaries. God commands, “Do not go beyond what is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6. Johann keeps doing exactly that. I’m not hounding him. I’m holding up the Word and saying, “This is the fence God set.”

And for the record, if anyone has something to say to me, they are welcome to say it directly. There’s no need to talk about me in the thread as if I’m not here reading it. I’m fully willing to address anything that’s brought straight to me. Just keep it grounded in Scripture, because that’s the only authority that matters not man’s opinions you can get all that you want in secular forums.

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I think I have a grasp of the debate. Also, I believe in the reason for the post. I believe, and I hope, you can correct me if I’m wrong @Inmate , is to give those who may be in prison, right, wrong, or indifferent, hope and encouragement, that even though they are there, they can still do God’s work and will, and use the time for personal growth and training. He is one hundred percent correct.

Now for the debate. I truly believe that you both have some points here. First, yes, Peter, Paul, etc, were in prison for breaking the law. Now, just because the law was unjust, it does not nullify that they broke it. Even if they did not break the law, I do not see that as relevant because they are still there, and they can still accomplish what God leads them to do.

Of course, we need to be about Scripture alone. God’s Word is never changing and always the Truth, regardless of whether anyone wants to accept it or not. No one owes me an explanation, but I do not see where Johann went off or “beyond” scripture. An example would be nice.

To give examples of real people who were really in prison, and who really gave us an example of how to make the best of it, I believe, is the reason for this conversation.

Agreed. I do not see where Johann differentiates between innocent or guilty, simply a prisoner. God can and does work in all things

“Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.” Romans 8:26-28

Would Paul have written what and how he did if he were not in prison? We do not know. Would Peter have become the person He was for not what he went through? God can and does use any and everyone, anywhere. Guilty or not. Look at the history.

King David committed adultery, lust, rape, and murder. Paul persecuted Christians, Peter was a hot head who denied Christ, Matthew tax collector, and Mary of Egypt was a prostitute. Go back further, and you can find even more egregious sins by those whom God called and used. Just because someone may be in prison, for any reason, does not mean God will not call them or use them.

Peter

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lol this is cute watching u guys fight over the net lol thanks for making my day

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you said you do not see where Johann went beyond Scripture. Here is the exact place. Johann wrote:

“Every verb shows God moving toward the inmate, and every noun names the exact place God enters.”

None of the verses he used say that. Not one. The text does not mention “inmates,” does not show God “moving toward the inmate,” and does not use nouns to mark “the place God enters.” That is inserting ideas into the passage. God says not to add to His Word ~Deuteronomy 4:2.

You also said the point of the thread is to encourage prisoners. That is fine. No one is arguing against God working in a prison cell. Scripture is clear that God meets people everywhere. The issue is not the encouragement. The issue is Johann building a message on meanings the text does not contain.

You argued that Peter, Paul, and others were still in prison even if unjustly. True, but Johann used them as if their situations apply directly to every inmate for every reason. Scripture does not make that leap. Innocent suffering for righteousness is not the same as imprisonment for crimes. Both can experience God, but the passages cannot be twisted to erase the difference.

You said you cannot see where he “differentiates between innocent or guilty.” That is exactly the problem. Scripture actually makes that distinction, and Johann blurred it by forcing the verses into a universal inmate message they were never written to teach.

You also quoted Romans 8:26–28. That verse promises God works for good for those who love Him. Amen. But it does not say God speaks in prisons through the verbs and nouns of random passages, which is the claim Johann made.

So yes, God works in prison. Yes, God uses broken people. But no, we do not get to rewrite the text to support that point. The truth is strong enough on its own. Johann’s claim simply went beyond what Scripture actually says.

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This is encouragement for a person sitting in a prison cell right now, whether their guilty, innocent, or somewhere in between, they should hear something straight from the Word of God. Their chains don’t have the final say. Christ does. This is better than trying to claim something the bible never says.

You may feel forgotten by people, but you are not forgotten by God. “Seek the Lord while He may be found; call upon Him while He is near” ~Isaiah 55:6. If you will turn your heart toward Him, He’ll step right into that cell with you. You don’t have to clean yourself up first. You don’t have to fix your past first. You just come. If you’re guilty, the world may stamp you with a record, but heaven offers you a Redeemer. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us” ~1 John 1:9. God can erase what nobody else can.

If you’ve been wronged, overlooked, or mistreated, the Lord sees it all. “The Lord is near to the brokenhearted” ~Psalm 34:18. He knows what man doesn’t know, and He will judge with perfect justice in His perfect time.

Whether you’re innocent or guilty, there is a freedom available that bars and locks cannot hold back. “If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed” ~John 8:36. That means the deepest prison is not made of steel. It’s made of sin. And Jesus breaks that kind of chain.

So what do you do while you’re there? You open the Book. “Your word is a lamp to my feet” ~Psalm 119:105. You talk to God. “Be constant in prayer” ~Romans 12:12.

You use the time the enemy meant for destruction, and you turn it into ground for discipleship. God has a way of doing His best work in places the world overlooks. And don’t ever forget this.

“We know that for those who love God all things work together for good” ~Romans 8:28.

God can take a prison sentence and turn it into a training ground. He can take a cell and turn it into a sanctuary. He can take the darkest chapter and write redemption across the top of it. Prison may hold your body, but it cannot hold God back from your life.

If you will trust Him, surrender to Him, and walk with Him, you will find something stronger than your past and bigger than your surroundings. Prison doesn’t get the last word. Jesus does.

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My conscience is not accusing me, and nothing in the Scriptures is piercing me with conviction on this claim. The Berean Bible shows the verb elegchei, meaning exposes or convicts, and that verb is simply not happening in me because the Word does not condemn me on this point. ~1 John 3:20 says that even when our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, yet in this case my heart is silent because the text itself is silent. ~Romans 14:5 speaks of being fully convinced, the verb plērophoreō meaning to be fully assured, and that is where I stand. My conscience is clear because the Scriptures have not struck me with conviction, and the Spirit who uses the Word to reprove, hence the verb elenchein, is not doing so here.

J.

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@bdavidc I dont know scipture like you do sir. you are right, i thought this topic was for us prisoners. and as far as me liking @Johann post has nothing to do with him being right or wrong, or the fact that he is teaching facts or fiction. It has to do with him taking time out of his day to go into prisons and spending time with us prisoners. Nothing i wrote was wrote to offened you directly or indirectly. And if it did i am sincerely sorry and hope you accept my apology sir.please and god bless

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Matthew 25 and Isaiah 53, take a moment and read them brother @paulhinkle, because these passages shaped the entire blueprint of our outreach ministry, the same heartbeat and pattern you saw in the work of David Wilkerson, a ministry that stepped into broken streets with the compassion of the Shepherd in Isaiah and the practical mercy of the King in Matthew.

Shalom and God bless, to you and family and fellow prisoners.

Johann.

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And I’ll let you know if I’m teaching “fiction” brother.

J.

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Thank you @PeterC, I honestly appreciate the breathing space and the fact that you took the time to read through this back and forth, it means a lot.

God bless.

J.

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There’s no offense taken at all. I hear your heart, and I’m glad you spoke up. None of this is about who knows more. God meets every one of us right where we are, and He promises that His Word gives wisdom to the simple ~Psalm 19:7. You don’t have to be a scholar for God to work deeply in your life.

And you’re right to appreciate anyone who spends time with those who are incarcerated. That compassion matters. At the same time, God calls all of us to make sure what we believe is anchored in His Word ~Acts 17:11. That’s the only reason I speak up on the doctrine side of things.

You didn’t offend me, not one bit. I respect you for saying what you did, and I respect you even more for your humility. Keep drawing near to the Lord where you are. He sees you, He knows you, and He is able to restore and rebuild any life that turns to Him ~Psalm 34:18.

God bless you. Keep going after Him.

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Saying “the Scriptures have not struck me with conviction” does not prove the Spirit is agreeing with you. The Bible says a person can feel completely fine and still be wrong ~1 Corinthians 4:4. A quiet conscience proves nothing.

The Holy Spirit always corrects us through the Word. “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ~ 2 Timothy 3:16. If a teaching is not written in the text, the Spirit is not the one behind it. Jesus warned that people can worship Him “in vain” when they teach human ideas as if they were God’s truth “in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” ~ Matthew 15:9.

The real issue may be this. If you keep leaning on what men say instead of what Scripture says, then all you have in your mind is man’s opinions. And if a person does not read the plain words of Scripture for what they actually say, of course they will not feel conviction. Jesus said some people “close their eyes and shut their ears” and therefore do not understand the truth ~Matthew 13:15.

Jesus also warned that false teachers come in sheep’s clothing but speak things that do not come from Him ~Matthew 7:15. That is why we test everything by the Word alone.

So the answer is simple. The Spirit always leads us back to what is written. If your idea cannot be shown clearly in Scripture, the Spirit is not confirming it. The Bible wins every time.

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if you’re saying you share the same heartbeat and pattern as David Wilkerson, then remember this: at least Wilkerson taught the truth of Scripture and did not try to change it. His entire ministry stood on preaching what is written, not adding ideas that are not in the text. That is the part worth imitating.

If we claim to walk in the same pattern, then we need to handle the Word the same way, letting Scripture speak for itself and refusing to go beyond what God has said ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

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Context of your beloved verse.

Do not go beyond what is written - 1 Corinthians 4:6-7
Both Paul and Apollos served as examples for the Corinthians, and Paul is instructing that the Corinthians should learn from them regarding “what is written,” which normally refers to the Old Testament (Matt. 2:5; 2 Cor. 4:13). He had already alluded to the Old Testament several times (1 Cor. 1:19, 3:19), so Paul is indicating his own loyalty to the Old Testament and his interest in seeing the Corinthians live up to its guiding principles. Simply stated, if the Corinthians would live under the authority of the Scriptures, they would not take pride in one man over against another and thereby damaging the fellowship by causing divisions. See WLC 145; BC 22, 24; CD 3-4.IX.

Paul’s pointing out pride is significant. Morris explains, “The verb take pride (physioo, or “to be puffed up”) occurs six times in this letter (again in 1 Cor. 4:18, 19; 5:2; 8:1; 13:4), once in Colossians.” Kistemaker expands on this:

Paul forbids every one of the Corinthians to foster the factionalism that is rampant in the church (1 Cor. 1:12; 3:4). Let no one trumpet his preference for one leader, whether Paul or Apollos, but let each believer strive to learn from them what the Scriptures have to say. They must learn from their leaders to listen to the teachings of God’s Word. In numerous places, the Scriptures warn the people against arrogance (e.g., see Job 40:12; Prov. 8:13; Gal. 6:3). The Corinthians must learn meekness and understand that everything they possess they have received from God. They hear God speaking to them from the pages of the Scriptures.

Already you have become rich - 1 Corinthians 4:8-13
Paul begins by making reference to the Corinthian’s riches (cf. Rev. 3:17), even calling them kings. These words describe what some of the Corinthians thought about themselves. They believed they were so blessed that they were utterly superior to everyone else. Paul revealed the heart of the problem at Corinth: the believers did not recognize how weak they actually were. Kistemaker addresses this irony:

“And I wish that you really had become kings, so that we might reign with you.” In this verse, Paul’s tone is laced with irony. He expresses his wish that God’s kingdom had indeed appeared and the Corinthian believers would be reigning with Christ (2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 3:21). If that were the case, he and Apollos would readily take a seat of royal honor next to them. But because the opposite is true, he uses sarcasm to shake the readers of his epistle. They fail to acknowledge that Christ’s servants (Paul, Apollos, and others) had taught them about God’s kingdom and had led them to Christ. Now they claim to be independent of these servants and deceive themselves by pretending to be rulers. The ironic comment conveys to them that they are ahead of Paul and his associates, who are still waiting for the coming of the kingdom.

So, Paul makes use of irony and sarcasm to point out to the Corinthians the triviality of their concerns and the unfairness of their criticisms. Paul’s sufferings (he was hungry, thirsty, poorly clothed, beaten, and homeless; he was being cursed, persecuted, slandered, and was considered the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world. As Trail says, “These terms refer to the very worst possible degradation, a filth that is gotten rid of through the gutter and sink and were comparable to the pain and public humiliation of captives condemned to die” (2 Cor. 4:8-9; 6:4-10; 11:23-27; 12:10; cf. Rom. 8:35; Phil. 4:12). In contrast, some of the Corinthians viewed themselves as superior in their faith and wisdom. However, they did so only because they did not understand what it means to be fools for Christ. Kistemaker says that true servants of Christ must endure affliction and reproach and adds:

Statistics reveal that the Church increases numerically and spiritually in countries where persecutions, hardships, poverty, corruption, and distress are common. By comparison, Church membership declines steadily in countries that exude affluence and ease. Whenever Christians are surrounded by material ease and comfort, they often tend to forget the claims of Christ. They become self-sufficient and, while maintaining a religious veneer, have lost their love for Christ and the message of salvation.

J.

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Everything you just wrote depends on the words of men instead of the text itself. Paul said, “Do not go beyond what is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6. Yet your entire explanation goes far beyond what is written. You quoted confessions, commentators, and long human analyses, but you never let the Scripture speak plainly.

The point Paul makes is simple. God’s people must stay inside the boundaries of His Word. When you flood the passage with outside authorities, you step past the very command the verse gives.

So here is the text without anything added.

“That you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written.”
~1 Corinthians 4:6

The verse is straightforward. Stay with Scripture. Stop adding layers of man’s opinions on top of it.

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I can’t assist you because I don’t have a degree in theology..but neither did Matthew, or Peter, or John. But, what I CAN do is thank you. I’ve been reading my English Bible, knowing that it wasn’t originally written in English, and am learning that there is structure to scripture, that there is very dense Hebrew poetry that I don’t understand, that it is loaded with parables, and that the words I’m reading have deeper meanings than what is printed in English. I bought a concordance for this very reason - to understand what I’m reading as it was written, in context, learning about the historical, social and political landscape, and to untangle the words that were written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

And, grammar..grammar is critical to understanding a language, as is punctuation. My favorite example is: let’s eat gramma..let’s eat, gramma.

So, your translations of verses, word by word, in their original language with how verbs, nouns, adjectives, etc. were used to express in human words what the Spirit is breathing out, has helped me so much! “Be still” has become so much deeper for me, so much more meaningful, and brings me right to Him. Every single time.

Also, your structured approach to Bible study has GREATLY improved my own reading and study. Rather than just reading through passages, not really understanding the importance of what I’m reading (particularly the importance of lineage), I’m actually beginning to see the themes that run through scripture, I’m finding reference after reference to Jesus all over the OT (I wasn’t taught this in “church”) and falling deeper in love, in awe, of Him. I’m beginning to learn about the brilliant literary structure in the books, and finding hyperlinks all over the place. And ALL of this is His word. He is the author.

So, know that you’ve truly helped me in my desire to not just understand scripture, but to understand what God is saying to me.

Shalom

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39

Let me say this one last thing. {I think} I understand your point. @bdavidc However, I believe what he was doing was more like this.

“Thou shalt not kill.” Exodus 20:13

That is the actual verse in the ESV version. Now, if I were teaching this, it would go something like this.

“Thou shalt not kill.”

First, the translation here is poor. It should be, Thou shalt not commit murder. We kill things all day long. Weeds, Trees, Mosquitoes, Ants, Animals for food, etc. What God is concerned about in this Commandment is the taking of a Human life. In…

Genesis 9:1-6

”And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”

So you see, God makes a very clear distinction between two things here. First, the killing of anything but man is OK with God. He gave us all things to meet our needs. He is also the one who set up the Death Penalty. He who sheds man’s blood, shall by man, his blood will be shed. That is how important God sees the life of human beings. Remember, in Genesis 1, God tells us this.

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”

Now remember, we all sin and come short of the glory of God. We were so evil that God sought to destroy us all and start over, until He found Noah faithful. He sets up this death penalty, this cost for innocent life, after the flood. He, in essence, tells Noah, Hey, I’m not going to destroy human life anymore, so you are not going to do it either. Pete’s paraphrase, of course.

There are four primary ways to end a human life.

Premeditated Murder
Justified Killings
Accidental Death
Abortion, yes, Abortion is the murder of an innocent life.

I would go on. This is taken from an actual lesson I taught. Now I think what Johann was doing was explaining what he feels the text is saying and what it means. In essence to teaching.

Now, on the surface, you could make the argument that I added to God’s Commandment. Or even worse, I called God a liar. I said that it does not mean what it says. But that is not what I did. Do you see what I mean?

Of course, if anyone were to add to, take away from, or change God’s actual Words, it would be heresy and false teaching. However, I think here lies the difference.

Peter

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You are correct @PeterC

tn The verb רָצַח (ratsakh) refers to the premeditated or accidental taking of the life of another human being; it includes any unauthorized killing (it is used for the punishment of a murderer, but that would not be included in the prohibition). This commandment teaches the sanctity of all human life. See J. H. Yoder, “Exodus 20, 13: ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill’,” Int 34 (1980): 394-99; and A. Phillips, “Another Look at Murder,” JJS 28 (1977): 105-26.

Exo 20:13 R16“You shall not murder.N1

Exo 20:13 You shall not murder.
ABP
Thou shalt not kill. ‘Killing’ is not what is prohibited, otherwise the judicial infliction of capital punishment, as well as the slaughter of an enemy in defensive war, would be unlawful-in which light these were certainly not regarded by the Israelites in the time of Moses (Exo_21:14; Deu_19:11; Deu_31:9). [ Lo’ (H3808) tirtsaach (H7523), Thou shalt not commit murder. The verb signifies to slay with premeditation and malice, and is properly rendered by the Septuagint: ou (G3756) foneuseis (G5407).] Of course, the interdict includes not only the actual perpetration of murder, but every deed that tends to the danger of life, as well as to personal injury, and the criminality of the act consists in its being an assault upon the image of God (Gen_9:6). ‘The omission of the object still remains to be noticed, as showing that the prohibition includes not only the killing of a fellowman, but the destruction of one’s own life, or suicide’ (Kiel).

As here..

This word occurs about 47 x
Meaning

  1. to murder, slay, kill

1a)(Qal) to murder, slay

1a1) premeditated

1a2) accidental

1a3) as avenger

1a4) slayer (intentional) (participle)

1b) (Niphal) to be slain

1c) (Piel)

1c1) to murder, assassinate

1c2) murderer, assassin (participle) (subst)

1d) (Pual) to be killed

The Pual form does not mean a generic kill in the sense of every kind of taking life. The Pual simply represents the passive intensive stem, so the sense is to be murdered or to be slain in the context of homicide, not a blanket category for all killing.

The root רָצַח ratzach is morally charged in every stem. Qal carries the active idea to murder, to slay with culpability. Niphal carries the passive idea to be slain in that same moral framework. Piel intensifies the idea of murder or assassination. Pual, therefore, naturally means to be murdered or to be slain as the victim of homicide. It does not suddenly switch into a neutral term for any killing the way Hebrew uses חָרַב charav, הָרַג harag, or מוּת mut for broad categories of death or killing.

In other words, the Pual meaning to be killed must always be read as to be killed in the morally charged sphere of ratzach, which means to be murdered. It never becomes a general term for battlefield killing, animal slaughter, or judicial execution. The semantic field stays within criminal bloodshed, which is why ~Exodus 20:13 uses the verb in its gnomic imperfect lo tirtzach, meaning you shall not commit murder, and why the LXX and the Latin Vulgate render it with the same morally focused vocabulary.
φονεύω; future φονεύσω; 1 aorist ἐφόνευσα; (φονεύς); from (Pindar, Aeschylus), Herodotus down; the Sept. mostly for øÈöÅç, also for äÈøÇâ, äÄëÈÌä, etc.; to kill, slay, murder; absolutely, to commit murder (A. V. kill): Mat_5:21; Jas_4:2; οὐ (which see 6) φονεύσεις, Mat_5:21; Mat_19:18; Rom_13:9 (Exo_20:15); μή φονεύσῃς, Mrk_10:19; Luk_18:20; Jas_2:11. τινα: Mat_23:31; Mat_23:35; Jas_5:6.
Thayer.

All the more reason @bdavidc will say I “add” to God’s word.