For us prisoners

General Faith
41

I appreciate the way you’re trying to calm the discussion and bring clarity. Let me answer your point simply and biblically.

Your example about “Thou shalt not kill” doesn’t actually match what Johann was doing. Explaining a translation is not the same as creating new meanings the text never gives. When we clarify a word in Scripture, we stay inside what God has said. But when we assign meanings the verse does not contain, that is where Scripture draws the line.

Here’s the difference in plain terms.

When I explain the sixth commandment, I’m still repeating exactly what the passage teaches.
When Johann said “every verb shows God moving toward the inmate” and “every noun names the place God enters,” those ideas are not in any of the passages he used.

The Bible never says God is moving toward “the inmate” in those verses. Johann added that.
The Bible never says the nouns in those passages mark “the places God enters.” Johann added that too.

That is the issue I have been pointing out.

Teaching what Scripture says = good.
Adding meanings Scripture never gives = not good.

God warns us about that for a reason.
“Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you” ~Proverbs 30:6.
“Do not go beyond what is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

Peter, you’re right about the heart of the thread. God absolutely can work in a prison cell. He can use a guilty man or an innocent man. He can save anyone, anywhere. I agree with you fully on that. My concern is only that we let the Scriptures speak for themselves when we encourage people, so they build their hope on what God has actually said.

That’s why I keep drawing the line where God draws it. Not to argue, but to protect the truth. What God said is always enough.

If we stick with the Word itself, we will all be on solid ground.

42

Johann, every time you feel cornered by the plain text, you retreat into word-studies, lexicons, academic notes, and long explanations. None of that changes the simple issue. You keep inserting meanings that God did not put in the passage, and then you defend it by drowning everyone in technical data.

You said:
“All the more reason @bdavidc will say I ‘add’ to God’s Word.”

Yes, because you are adding to God’s Word. Not by quoting Hebrew. Not by defining a verb. But by attaching meanings the text never states and then treating them as if they were inspired.

Your word-study about רָצַח (ratzach) proves nothing except that you know how to copy from a lexicon. Nobody is arguing about Exodus 20:13. The issue is your habit of doing this:

1. You take a verse.
2. You add imagery the Bible never gives.
3. You assign applications the text never teaches.
4. You claim the grammar supports your imagination.

That is the exact definition of going beyond what is written ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

Here is the blunt truth:

**Hebrew definitions are not the problem.

Your interpretations are.**

You say you don’t “add to the text,” but your own words prove otherwise:

• “Every verb shows God moving toward the inmate.”
• “Every noun names the exact place God enters.”

Show me that in the passage.
Show me that in one Hebrew verb.
Show me that in one Greek noun.

You can’t.
Because it isn’t there.

That is why appealing to ratzach or PhiLippians or commentary notes doesn’t fix the issue. You keep treating linguistic information as permission to insert ideas the Spirit did not inspire.

The Bible does not warn against using Hebrew.
The Bible warns against adding meaning.

“Do not add to His words, lest He reprove you” ~Proverbs 30:6.

Your lexicon lists do not protect you from that warning.

So let me say it plainly:

**The problem is not your grammar.

The problem is that you use grammar to justify conclusions the text never states.**

That is what I have been confronting the entire time.

Until you can show your ideas in the verse itself, not in commentary, not in rabbinic sayings, not in word-studies, you are still teaching things God did not say.

And Scripture does not bend just because you wrapped it in Hebrew.

43

Johann, the issue here is not that the Scriptures are unclear. The verses in Romans 5 say exactly what they mean. A child could see it. The problem is not understanding. The problem is that you refuse to accept what the text actually says unless it fits the message you already want to preach.

After reviewing this whole conversation, it is obvious why you cannot receive correction.

1. You trust your interpretations more than the plain text.
Every single time Scripture is quoted, you respond with commentary, rabbis, lexicons, grammar charts, Greek stems, Hebrew stems, or theological frameworks. But you never just bow to the simple words of Scripture itself. This is exactly what Jesus rebuked in Matthew 15:6, when men elevate their ideas above the Word of God.

2. You approach Scripture backwards.
You start with the message you want to deliver, then reshape verses to support it. That is why you said “every verb shows God moving toward the inmate” and “every noun marks where God enters.” The passages you used never say that once. You inserted it. That is not teaching Scripture. That is teaching your imagination while using Scripture as decoration.

3. You are emotionally invested in your own teaching.
The moment your interpretation is tested, you react personally. You accuse people of attacking you, being holier-than-thou, having a “religious spirit,” or misrepresenting you. But Scripture says correction is part of walking in the truth. “He who hates reproof is stupid” ~Proverbs 12:1. Your defensiveness shows the real issue is unwillingness to be corrected.

4. Your “lack of conviction” doesn’t prove you’re right.
You keep saying the Scriptures haven’t convicted you. But the Bible says plainly, “It is the Lord who judges me” ~1 Corinthians 4:4. A silent conscience means nothing. Jesus said some people cannot understand the Word because “their eyes they have closed and their ears they have shut” ~Matthew 13:15. When someone won’t receive Scripture, of course they feel no conviction from it.

5. You confuse biblical knowledge with submission to the Word.
You know Hebrew. You know Greek. You know grammar. So did the scribes and Pharisees. But Jesus said they did not understand the Scriptures ~Matthew 22:29 because they refused to submit to the plain meaning. That is what is happening here. You use grammar as a shield to protect an interpretation Scripture never gave.

6. You read the Bible through a lens you refuse to put down.
Your lens is that every passage must speak directly to inmates. So you force texts to say what they never say. Until you lay down the lens and let the Word speak for itself, you will keep going in circles.

Here is the blunt reality:

**You do not misunderstand because the Bible is unclear.

You misunderstand because you do not want to accept what the text actually says.**

Not because of intelligence.
Not because Romans is complicated.
Not because you lack study tools.

It is because you are committed to a message God did not write, and when Scripture contradicts it, you reach for commentaries and lexicons instead of yielding to the truth.

That is why this entire debate continues.
Not because the Word is hard.
But because you refuse to let the Word correct you.

44

Saints,

That Agur benJakeh sure was sensitive to the teaching of The Lord. His Proverb (utterance) is worth studying as a cogent addition to this long thread….

Proverbs 30:1-33 (NKJV)
The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, his utterance. This man declared to Ithiel–to Ithiel and Ucal:

2 Surely I am more stupid than any man,
And do not have the understanding of a man.
I neither learned wisdom Nor have knowledge of the Holy One.

4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, If you know?

5 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

7 Two things I request of You (Deprive me not before I die):
Remove falsehood and lies far from me;
Give me neither poverty nor riches-- Feed me with the food allotted to me;
Lest I be full and deny You, And say, “Who is the LORD?”
Or lest I be poor and steal, And profane the name of my God.

10 Do not malign a servant to his master, Lest he curse you, and you be found guilty.

11There is a generation that curses its father, And does not bless its mother.
There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes, Yet is not washed from its filthiness.
There is a generation–oh, how lofty are their eyes! And their eyelids are lifted up.
There is a generation whose teeth are like swords, And whose fangs are like knives, To devour the poor from off the earth, And the needy from among men.

15 The leech has two daughters-- Give and Give!
There are three things that are never satisfied, Four never say, “Enough!”:
The grave, The barren womb, The earth that is not satisfied with water—
And the fire never says, “Enough!”

17 The eye that mocks his father, And scorns obedience to his mother, The ravens of the valley will pick it out, And the young eagles will eat it.

18 There are three things which are too wonderful for me, Yes, four which I do not understand:
The way of an eagle in the air,
The way of a serpent on a rock,
The way of a ship in the midst of the sea,
And the way of a man with a virgin.

20 This is the way of an adulterous woman: She eats and wipes her mouth, And says, “I have done no wickedness.”

21For three things the earth is perturbed, Yes, for four it cannot bear up:
For a servant when he reigns,
A fool when he is filled with food,
A hateful woman when she is married,
And a maidservant who succeeds her mistress.

24 There are four things which are little on the earth, But they are exceedingly wise:
The ants are a people not strong, Yet they prepare their food in the summer;
The rock badgers are a feeble folk, Yet they make their homes in the crags;
The locusts have no king, Yet they all advance in ranks;
The spider skillfully grasps with its hands, And it is in kings’ palaces.

29There are three things which are majestic in pace, Yes, four which are stately in walk:
A lion, which is mighty among beasts And does not turn away from any;
A greyhound,
A male goat also,
And a king whose troops are with him.

Some of these powerful proverbs of Agur are cherished, and often repeated, but others seem conspicuously ignored. If one loves verse 6 but ignores verse 10, that same person should probably stop quoting either.

Agur says: If you have been foolish in exalting yourself, Or if you have devised evil, put your hand on your mouth. For as the churning of milk produces butter, And wringing the nose produces blood, So the forcing of wrath produces contention, and contention is listed among the evident works of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21).

In plain English, let us all “avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:23-26)

Peace in Jesus
KP

2 Likes
45

@KPuff

Appreciated, and here is the context with the kind of background that reminds us the Sword cuts both ways. Scripture says the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing and dividing soul and spirit in ~Hebrews 4:12 BSB, so whenever we speak truth we stand before the same blade that searches our own hearts.
Correct?

And here…

It is the common hermeneutical reminder that Scripture was written for our instruction, our faith, and our obedience, but it was not written to us as the original audience, which means every book in the Bible addresses a specific people in a specific place facing a specific situation, yet the Spirit shaped those words so they carry enduring authority for the whole church. In other words, Moses spoke to Israel in the wilderness, Isaiah confronted Judah in crisis, Paul exhorted the Corinthians in a fractured city, but the same God who inspired those words preserved them so they still teach, correct, warn, comfort, command, and shape believers today. This saying guards us from reading the Bible as if it dropped straight into our century with no historical setting, and it also guards us from treating the Bible as a museum artifact with no living voice, because what was originally spoken to them is now applied to us through faithful exegesis that honors both the ancient context and the timeless truth God breathed into the text.

C. Some of the elements of the false teachers

  1. Jewish aspects
    a. false teachers
    (1) teachers of the Law (cf. 1Ti_1:7)
    (2) the circumcision party (cf. Tit_1:10)
    b. false teachers warned about Jewish myths (cf. 1Ti_3:9; Tit_1:14)
    c. false teachers concerned with food laws (cf. 1Ti_4:1-5)
    d. false teachers concerned with genealogies (cf. 1Ti_1:4; 1Ti_4:7; 2Ti_4:4; Tit_1:14-15; Tit_3:9)
  2. Gnostic aspects ( Topic at Titus 1)
    a. asceticism forbidding and exempting
    (1) forbid marriage (cf. 1Ti_2:15; 1Ti_4:3)
    (2) exempt certain foods (cf. 1Ti_4:4)
    b. sexual exploitation (cf. 1Ti_4:3; 2Ti_3:6-7; Tit_1:11; Tit_1:15)
    c. emphasis on knowledge (cf. 1Ti_4:1-3; 1Ti_6:20)

2Ti 2:1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:3 You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.
2Ti 2:5 And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.
2Ti 2:6 The hardworking farmer must be first to partake of the crops.
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say, and may the Lord give you understanding in all things.
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
2Ti 2:9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him.
2Ti 2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.
2Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
A Worker Approved by God
2Ti 2:14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
2Ti 2:18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
2Ti 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2Ti 2:23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
2Ti 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Shalom.

J.

1 Like
46

Well said. The Spirit shaped those words so they carry enduring authority for every age.

I love this.
KP

2 Likes
47

I hear what you are saying, and I agree that Agur’s words in Proverbs 30 call believers to humility and to avoid needless quarrels. But I need to be clear on something, because Scripture itself makes this distinction. Proverbs 30 speaks to those who already fear the Lord and already submit to the truth of God’s Word. It is not a command for believers to set aside discernment or to treat every voice as equally valid. The same Scriptures that call us to gentleness also command us to confront false teaching.

God never tells His people to link arms with those who twist His Word. He tells us the opposite. “Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you” ~Proverbs 30:6. That is exactly why this issue matters. The moment someone reshapes Scripture into something God did not say, the responsibility to correct it becomes a command, not a quarrel. Titus 1:9 says an elder must “hold firm to the trustworthy word” and “rebuke those who contradict it.” Jude tells believers to “contend for the faith that was once delivered” ~Jude 3. Paul says to “test all things; hold fast what is good” ~1 Thessalonians 5:21. Correction is not strife. It is obedience.

When someone teaches what is not written, Scripture does not call that person a brother in the sense that we simply overlook the teaching. The Bible warns that false teachers come in sheep’s clothing ~Matthew 7:15. Paul told Timothy that many will turn aside to fables and prefer teachers who scratch their itching ears ~2 Timothy 4:3. We are not told to join hands with that. We are told to guard the flock.

So yes, we avoid foolish arguments. But correcting Scripture that has been twisted is not foolish. It is necessary. It is loving. It is commanded. “Faithful are the wounds of a friend” ~Proverbs 27:6. Silence in the face of error is not unity. It is neglect.

If I have called out Johann wrongly, I would repent. But this is not about personalities. It is about whether Scripture is being handled truthfully. When someone reads things into the text that God did not put there, Scripture requires correction. Not for winning an argument, but for guarding the Word that gives life.

So my intent is not strife. My intent is fidelity to what God has spoken. And if we really believe that “every word of God is pure” ~Proverbs 30:5, then we must protect those words from being stretched, reshaped, or repurposed. That is not quarreling. That is obedience to the One who gave us the truth in the first place.

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48

Oh, stop it with trying to twist the scriptures to bend to you. It would be good for all of us to follow the gentleness that 2 Timothy 2 talks about. The problem is that you keep accusing me of wrongdoing when I’ve simply held your claims up to the Scriptures. “The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him” ~Proverbs 18:17. Examining a claim with the Word is not quarrelsomeness. It is obedience.

What you are getting wrong in your post is this: you present long lists, background theories, and hermeneutical rules as if they have equal weight with the plain text. Scripture never tells us to place these things beside the Word. It tells us to “rightly divide the word of truth” ~2 Timothy 2:15, not to surround it with layers that God did not give. When your explanations go beyond what is written, that is where the conflict arises.

I am not attacking you. I am pointing back to what God actually said, because that is the authority for both of us. If we are going to use the verses about gentleness, then we should walk in them ourselves and not assume evil where none has been done. “Love does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth” ~1 Corinthians 13:6.

I am committed to the Scriptures as they are written. That is all.

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49

Scripture never says we must treat the Word as something written to them but not to us. Paul told Timothy, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable” for the believer now ~2 Timothy 3:16. God does not divide His Word into “their part” and “our part.” He gave it to His people as a whole.

Yes, the writers spoke to real people in real situations, but the authority does not come from reconstructing their setting. The authority comes from what God breathed out. When the Lord spoke through Moses, Isaiah, or Paul, the Spirit was not shaping a message that used to apply and now must be filtered before we can obey it. The Spirit gave words that stand as they are.

The danger in Johann’s statement is that it quietly shifts the weight from the text itself to the background around the text. Scripture never tells us to lean on that. It tells us to hear and obey what God has spoken.

“The word of our God will stand forever” ~Isaiah 40:8. Not the setting. Not the reconstruction. The Word itself.

That is why we stay with what God said, not with the extra layers being added around it.

50

You know @Joanne.1966, you continually amaze me, and you are such an encourager, and my prayer is that our Lord Christ Jesus would keep opening the eyes of your heart through the Holy Spirit, just as Paul prays in ~Ephesians 1.17 through 18 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ would give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him and enlighten your understanding so that you grow even deeper in His truth and walk in the grace He gives to all who believe, as Paul also writes in ~Philippians 1.9 that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and all discernment.

Stay strong eis Messiah.

J.

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51

@Johann Thank you for the prayer. It has had a deep affect in me..and others as well.

Praise Him! Praise the Lord! I Praise you Lord!

Shalom my friend

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52

@Bdavidc
You and I have spoken about this conduct before, so I do not want to reiterate observations I have already shared with you.

I have applied analysis to your recent post, and in it I have counted 6 “strawmen”, 10 misappropriations or misquoting of scripture, 4 false accusations, and one statement of self-promotion. Further information on these categories follow:

A “strawman” argument is when something is claimed to have occurred that has not actually occurred, but is set forth because it can be easily defeated. Using a strawman is intended to lend false credence to the argument.

“Misappropriation of scripture” is when scripture is employed to make a point in a way it was not intended by the author. “Misquoting scripture” is when quote marks are placed around a phrase that is attributed to scripture, but the phrase is incomplete or inaccurate, and is misused for the purpose of proving a point.

“False accusations” are accusations of an individual that have no actual basis, but are employed as a tactic to slander, insult, or deprecate an opponent, or are employed to distract from the point of contention. They are implicit lies, and do not come from the Father of Truth.

“Self-promotion” is making claims of oneself that are not apparent in their character by other means.

If I were to submit to your teaching, by your own admonition, I must consider myself “commanded” to correct you in these several infractions:

However, the statement you made (above) is actually not true. I understand that you feel it is true.

Since I do not agree with this teaching of yours, and I do not feel compelled (or commanded) to correct you. I am happy to share the details of my analysis privately with you if you ask me to, compassionately, gently, and only if you are open to hearing another point of view. If not, I am under no obligation to force it on you or to publiclly expose you. I am not even convinced I should have said this much, but I’m taking a page our of your own play book to gently communicate with you in your own language. So, I thought this mild admonishment might be received by one who considers himself faithfully “contending for the faith”.

I have no intention of publicly “contending” with you, defending the strawmen you created, or to rattle-sabers with anyone who calls themselves a brother (or sister). We are called to peace, and given the ministry of testifying of the Prince of Peace, who bought our Peace by His own blood.

Peace in Jesus
KP

2 Likes
53

Yeah…but at the same time, don’t discount the old saw about how some people don’t know anything, because they haven’t done time. First off, “doing time” is a relative term. What did you mean? Spent time in prison, of spent time on the physics of time? Also, technically, the nation of Israel going into captivity doesn’t always automatically mean that everyone was marched off in chains. I know that the major heroes were in the dungeon a lot, but be logical. If they had been in chains the whole time, how did they write anything and get the scrolls saved for posterity? Also, it’s the whole nation, in the case of Joseph particularly, from the inside, and that incident was ten against two. The other ten are still Israeli, and they don’t feel any ill effects until the famine armors in and their dad (Abraham) sends them in after Joseph, to buy wheat from pharaoh. Then it’s everyone, and even then, if you had a low enough character to collaborate, you were pretty much at large. Use your loaf. Since a large number of people are in chains or prison, chances are that an even larger number of people are free, keeping them bound up. What was that Jesus said? No one can enter a strong man’s house and take it away from him without overwhelming him by force and tying him up. There’s a message there….

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δέσμιοι désmioi (1) N-NPM
prisoners Act_16:25
δέσμιον désmion (5) N-ASM
a prisoner Act_25:27,
prisoner Mat_27:15, Mat_27:16, Mar_15:6, 2Ti_1:8
δέσμιος désmios (7) N-NSM
a prisoner Phm_1:1, Phm_1:9
prisoner Act_23:18, Act_28:17, Eph_3:1, Eph_4:1
left in bonds Act_25:14, w/G2641
δεσμίους desmíous (2) N-APM
prisoners Act_16:27, Act_28:16
δεσμίων desmíôn (1) N-GPM
them that are in bonds Heb_13:3
English to Strong’s
bonds G254, G1198, G1199, G1210
prisoner G1198
prisoners G1198, G1202

J.

1 Like
55

Alright then. Let me be very clear about this. You’re wrong. I did not say what I said based on how I felt. Scripture commands that we correct anything that contradicts what God has spoken. “All Scripture is profitable… for reproof and correction” ~2 Timothy 3:16. “Test all things; hold fast to what is good” ~1 Thessalonians 5:21. When someone molds Scripture to make God say something He didn’t, it is not an option to leave that uncorrected. It is obedience to the Word.

You freely entered into this discussion. That does not grant you authority over what I say or how I say it, nor does it give you veto power over how I share Scripture. You are not the moderator of this discussion. I is not you place to redefine the boundaries of a biblical discussion.

You told me I was “off topic” when I referenced the Scriptures. I did not go off topic. I was directly responding to the claims that were being made and to the Scriptures that were already being referenced in the thread. Bringing Scripture to bear on Scripture is never off topic. In fact, that is exactly what believers are commanded to do. That is true believer that believe in the truth of God Word the Bible.

You also said it should have been said privately. When teaching or claims are put forward in a public setting, correction of those claims by the Scriptures belongs in a public setting. Paul rebuked Peter publicly in Galatians 2 because the issue was public, and that principle is in place here as well.

You then objected to me adding more Scripture, and that alone lays bare the true problem. This is a Christian forum. Scripture is the standard. No believer has the right to tell someone to stop using the Word of God. “All Scripture is profitable… for reproof and correction” ~2 Timothy 3:16. If the Word of God confronts us, we submit to it, we do not muzzle it.

You accused me of having a misunderstanding, but Scripture itself makes the distinction between righteous suffering and suffering for wrong doing. “Let none of you suffer as an evildoer” ~1 Peter 4:15. That’s not my line. That is written plainly. When Scripture is brought into a discussion, it is to be handled accurately, and it is to be examined.

And the claim that I am causing division is completely untrue. Scripture is clear who causes division. “Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine” ~Romans 16:17. Division is caused by teaching that contradicts the Word of God, not by correcting it. Standing with Scripture does not divide the church. Error does.

I am not attacking you. I am holding this conversation to the authority of the Word. I will not scale back the Scriptures because someone is having a hard time with what the Word of God actually says. You voluntarily entered this discussion, but you do not set the rules for it. The Scriptures do.

Now on to your suggestion of discussing your analysis privately. That is the very problem I have been highlighting. When someone discards Scripture in a public discussion and seeks to replace it with private opinions behind the scenes, that is proof that they do not take the authority of the Word seriously. If the truth of Scripture is not the foundation for what you want to say, then I have no interest in hearing the advice.

This discussion is about what God has said, not private interpretations or personal analysis. “Thy Word is truth” ~John 17:17. If the truth is not directing what is said, then there is nothing of value to be added. I have no interest in swapping private opinions when the Scriptures are already clear.

If you have something to say, say it from Scripture, and say it publicly. If not, then private commentary has nothing to add to a biblical discussion. I care about what God has said. Anything that moves away from that is not something that I need or intend to follow.

56

I think you are responding to someone else. I never said, or implied, several of the things you are defending yourself from, and accusing me of having said.

KP

1 Like
57

OK let us test this whole derailed thread. I made a post to share love, hope, and scripture with those suffering like me. Since then that has been completely lost in a blaze of debate.

Let’s look at the fruit that you have now produced, fruit of correctness? fruit of debate? fruit of my way?

Ask yourself brother when was the last time you lifted someone up here? You scare others out of sharing and refuse more private debates away from those whose faith you can shake. If you aren’t channeling a pharisee spirit then I give up.

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the standard we are called to use is Scripture, not how a thread feels and not whether correction makes someone uncomfortable. “Test all things; hold fast to what is good” ~1 Thessalonians 5:21. When someone introduces teaching that does not align with the Word, Scripture commands us to address it. That is not derailing a thread. That is obeying God.

The fruit God looks for is not silence or avoiding correction. Love “rejoices with the truth” and “does not rejoice in iniquity” ~1 Corinthians 13:6. Truth builds up. Error tears down. The most unloving thing we could do is stay quiet while Scripture is reshaped into something God did not say.

I also encourage anyone who is following the true teachings of the Word of God. I am not here to cheer people on while they drift from Scripture or to make anyone feel comfortable walking a man centered path. What some call encouragement is not what the Bible calls encouragement. People should never be encouraged to get comfortable in their sin. Scripture says, “Exhort one another daily… lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin” ~Hebrews 3:13. Real encouragement calls people back to God, not deeper into error.

You said I scare others out of sharing, but Scripture never tells us to hide correction for the sake of comfort. Paul publicly corrected wrong doctrine because the church needed clarity ~Galatians 2:11–14. Protecting the body from confusion is part of standing firm in the faith.

As for refusing private discussions, Paul told Timothy to “charge some that they teach no other doctrine” ~1 Timothy 1:3. False or twisted teaching affects the whole body, not just one person. That is why correction belongs in the open. It guards those who are watching and learning.

Calling someone a pharisee does not make the correction unbiblical. The Pharisees were condemned because they replaced God’s Word with their own ideas ~Matthew 15:3. My entire aim is the opposite. I want the discussion anchored in Scripture so no one adds to it or changes it ~Proverbs 30:5–6.

Eternity is forever. Once we die, there are no second chances. That is why God gave us His Word, so we would know what He says and walk in it now. If someone’s faith is shaken by seeing Scripture corrected, that is not a reason to hide the truth. It is a reason to get more firmly grounded in it. God’s Word must remain the standard for all of us.

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If someone wants a place that celebrates anything and everything, the secular forums will give you that. But Scripture never calls us to affirm all behavior. “Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good” ~Romans 12:9. People twisting Scripture to make themselves feel better does not help anyone. Scripture says, “Every word of God is pure… do not add to His words” ~Proverbs 30:5–6. Only the truth sets people free ~John 8:32.

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Saul thought he was doing God’s work too. I would personally like it if you applied your amazing unshakeable correctness with some real fruit of the spirit mixed in.

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