Is Jesus God Himself or One Person Within God?

Theology
163

@Johann

Our words are leaves on a plant. Expressions of something much deeper, below the visible surface of the soil.

This leaves (haha) room for interpretation, which is always dependent on context and awareness.

That’s why God tells us to look at the fruit, the nature of those expressions.

That which is bitter contrasts sharply from what is sweet.

God the Father is everywhere at once. Jesus came in the flesh, fully man with the fullness of the Truth and the unblemished Spirit of God within Him.

It is not difficult to distinguish me from you, why should it be so challenging to distinguish Father from Son while worshipping Them as such?

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I asked you a simple question. Is Messiah God in the flesh?

J.

165

Simple? That is a loaded question for which you reject my direct response.

166

Are we going to have a circular argument here?

You said…

… “the Spirit of God within Him.”
Is this correct?

Your wording can suggest that Jesus is a man uniquely indwelt by God rather than God the Son incarnate.

Elaborate please.

J.

167

“Discernment” is a gift from God. We can’t get it elsewhere.

It is the ability to tell very similar things apart.

I do not confuse Father with Son, but I worship Both as commanded because I seek to live consistently in the Life bestowed within me by the holy Spirit.

I do not contend with -isms and seminary vernacular.

The truth is rational, reasonable, and self-evident to those genuinely in search of it.

Everything else is just a distraction.

168

Cheers, when someone is not “working with the Scriptures” this is a red flag, dodging, weaving, and not forthcoming.

J.

169

John 1:11 says, in effect, that God came to His own possession (this world He created that fell into sin) and that His possession did not “parelabon” Him.

Most forms of the word look like “take” or “recieve.” In one lexicon I saw the word also had connotations of “learn” as in a form of “taking in.”

God is omnipresent. He is everywhere. Even in the hearts of the wicked, yet they push Him out to their own demise.

What is it in a man that would cause him to reject truth? Does it have anything to do with that admonishment against getting caught up in the letter?

170

Correct. I concur. This is why I try to stay out of the Trinity debate. Been there, done that. Accomplished nothing. Because he adopted a fixed dogmatic position and attempts to get the Truth to say what he believes.

Peter

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Stay strong in Christ Jesus brother @PeterC .

J.

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172

The truth does not flee contention.

Paul crushed falsehood with reason, with logic founded in faith, with divine rationality, with Christ’s ratiocination.

I do not have unprofitable discussions. I appreciate the contrasts.

Thank you @Johann

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As well with you brother. Thank you for the blessing.

Peter

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What are you talking about, PeterC? Scripture at Psalm 90:2, which I previously quoted, says the following about the Abrahamic God.

“Before the mountains were born, the earth and the world brought forth, from eternity to eternity you are God.” (Psalm 90:2 – New American Bible)

“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.“ (Psalm 90:2 – New Revised Standard Version)

An eternal aka everlasting person does not have a beginning. As such, the only person at John 1:1 to whom the word “beginning” applies to is Jesus Christ aka the Word. Scripture at Colossians 1:15 says point blank that Jesus aka the Word was created.

“He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation;“ (Colossians 1:15)

NeutralZone

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". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)

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I quoted Colossians 1:15 where it clearly says Jesus was the first to be created and you’re still claim “The Bible teaches that Jesus was not created. . . .” Really, Johann?

By the way, Colossians 1:16 won’t help you, because a created being (which Jesus was) cannot create. A created being is not capable of creating. You are reading Colossians 1:16 with Trinitarian lenses. Only Jehovah the Father can create. Jehovah was the power behind all creation, but he worked through Jesus. Notice how this is confirmed by scripture quoted below.

“God created everything through him [Jesus], and nothing was created except through him.” (John 1:3 – New Living Translation)

NeutralZone

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". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)

176

“IN HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED” (COLOSSIANS 1:16)
“ALL THINGS CAME INTO BEING THROUGH HIM” (JOHN 1:3)
“THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLD” (HEBREWS 1:2)
THE WORK OF THE FATHER AND THE SON IN CREATION
Further Reading…

CHRIST: THE FATHER’S CO-CREATOR.

J.

177

Wrong again @NeutralZone

When someone argues that “firstborn” proves Jesus is a created being,YOUR claim must be tested lexically, contextually, and canonically. The key text is Colossians 1:15, where Paul writes:

Col 1:15[1]

The Greek term is πρωτότοκος, firstborn. The error arises when πρωτότοκος is confused with πρωτόκτιστος, which would mean first created.
Paul does not use the latter term. The semantic range of πρωτότοκος in both the Septuagint and the New Testament frequently denotes preeminence, rank, and inheritance rights rather than temporal origin.

In the Old Testament, the “firstborn” is often a title of status, not chronology. Psalm 89:27 is decisive:

Psa 89:27[2]

David was not the first king of Israel chronologically, nor was he Jesse’s firstborn son. Yet God declares he will be made “firstborn,” meaning exalted above all rulers. Here firstborn clearly signifies supremacy and royal priority.

Now return to Colossians 1. The immediate context refutes the idea that Christ is part of creation. The next verse states:

Col 1:16[3]

Paul uses τὰ πάντα, all things, and then exhaustively categorizes created reality. If all things were created by Him, He cannot logically be included within the class of created things.
The grammar places Him on the Creator side of the Creator creature distinction.

Further, Colossians 1:17 intensifies the claim:

Col 1:17[4]

“He is before all things” employs the present tense ἐστίν, indicating ongoing existence. It does not say He came to be before all things, but He is. The preposition πρό with the genitive denotes priority in both time and rank. He precedes creation and sustains it.

The same title appears in Revelation 1:5, where Christ is called “the first begotten of the dead.” There it clearly refers to preeminence in resurrection, not the first person ever raised, since others were raised prior to Him in biblical history. It signifies supremacy and inaugurating authority over the new creation.

Finally, John 1:1 to 3 establishes the ontological boundary:

John 1:3[5]

The final clause is exclusionary. If anything belongs to the category “made,” it was made by the Word. Therefore, the Word Himself cannot belong to that category. To assert that Christ is created collapses the logic of the text.

Col_1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God” The same word (eikôn) is used of Jesus in Col_3:10 and 2Co_4:4. A similar theological expression occurs in Joh_1:18; Joh_14:9; Php_2:6; Heb_1:3. The Heb_1:3 passage has the stronger Greek term (charakter, which means an exact representation, cf. Gen_1:26-27; Gen_5:1; Gen_9:6; 1Co_11:7; Jas_3:9). To see Jesus is to see God!
The invisible God has become visible! Deity has become a man (cf. Joh_14:9).
Jesus’ ministry was to restore the image of God in humanity. In one sense Eden had been restored through Jesus, the second Adam (cf. Rom_5:12-21; 1Co_15:20-28; Php_2:6). It is even possible that heaven will be a restored Eden:

  1. the Bible begins with God, mankind and the animals (cf. Genesis 1-2) and ends with God and mankind in a garden setting (with the animals by implication, cf. Revelation 21-22)
  2. the prophecy of Isa_11:6-9 describes children and animals together in the new age
  3. new Jerusalem comes down to a recreated earth (cf. 2Pe_3:10-13; Rev_21:2)

“the firstborn of all creation” This was an OT metaphor for Jesus’ unique and exalted position.

  1. the rabbis said it meant preeminence (cf. Exo_4:22)
  2. in the OT it was used for the eldest son as heir and manager of the family
  3. in Psa_89:27 it was used in a Messianic sense

This phrase is not to be understood as Jesus being the first creation (#4).

This would have played into the hands of the Gnostic teachers, who taught that Jesus was the highest angelic level next to the high god. It must be interpreted in its Jewish OT setting. Jesus was deity’s unique son (cf. Joh_1:18; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:18; 1Jn_4:9), yet Jesus was always Deity (cf. Col_1:17; Joh_1:1; Joh_5:18; Joh_10:30; Joh_14:9; Joh_20:28). He became a human in time, at Bethlehem, so that fallen mankind could comprehend and understand Deity (cf. Joh_1:14; Joh_1:18).
SPECIAL TOPIC: FIRSTBORN
Col_1:16 “by Him all things were created” Jesus was God’s agent of creation, both of the visible and invisible, earthly and heavenly spheres (cf. Joh_1:3; Joh_1:10; Rom_11:36; 1Co_8:6; Heb_1:2; Heb_2:10). This refuted the Gnostics’ world view of the antithetical relationship between spirit (God) and matter.

It was Jesus who spoke the cosmos into existence (cf. Genesis 1). It was Jesus who formed Adam and breathed into him the breath of life (cf. Genesis 2).
The verb “created” is used twice in Col_1:16. The first is aorist passive indicative and the second at the end of the verse (in Greek) is perfect passive indicative. The thrust is that Jesus is the agent in creation but the Father is the primary cause. Creation was in (en) Jesus, through (dia) Jesus and for (eis) Jesus!

But you are dogmatic, so this would be a futile exercise.

J.

  1. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: - KJV ↩︎

  2. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. - KJV ↩︎

  3. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: - KJV ↩︎

  4. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. - KJV ↩︎

  5. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. - KJV ↩︎

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@NeutralZone

FIRSTBORN

YHWH’s Special Choice of Israel (my exegetical notes from Exodus)
Exod. 4:22 "Thus says the Lord, 'Israel is My son, My firstborn’" This is extremely significant in that it speaks of the fatherhood of God (see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE FATHERHOOD OF GOD). This is not an unusual OT concept but can be found in Deut. 1:21; 8:5; 32:6; Hos. 11:1; Isa. 1:2; 63:16; Jer. 3:19; Mal. 1:6. However, it must be seen that God’s fatherhood is not in the sense of creation but in His unique relationship to Israel (see SPECIAL TOPIC: SON OF GOD), His covenant people (see SPECIAL TOPIC: COVENANT). This same concept of “My Son” will later be used of the Messiah (cf. Hos. 11:1; Matt. 2:15; see SPECIAL TOPIC: MESSIAH). This is also the first time in Exodus that the significant concept of the “firstborn” is used. The firstborn had preeminence in the family, was the major inheritor, and became the protector of the family and family rights (cf. III. A. #2).
There is also an undercurrent here that I think is significant. God is father only in the sense of redemption but I think the ultimate purpose of God is the redemption of all humans made in His image (cf. Gen. 1:26-27). As Israel was the “firstborn” (i.e., a kingdom of priests unto God, Exod. 19:4,5), the goal of the firstborn was to encourage the other children to faith in God. See SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH’S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN.
Exod. 4:23 “I will kill your son, your firstborn” This is a foreshadowing of the tenth and last plague, where just as Pharaoh refused to let Israel, God’s firstborn, go, he shall lose his firstborn, not only his son, who was considered to be the son of the sun god, Ra, but also the firstborn of all the land of Egypt, as well as the firstborn of live stock (another example of YHWH’s power over Egypt’s gods).

The Rite of Redemption of the Firstborn in the Exodus (OT)
Because of the death of the firstborn of Egypt, the firstborn of non-priestly families was given to serve YHWH (cf. Exodus 13; 22:29; 34:20).
The Levites and Priests as a tribe took the place of the firstborn males in serving YHWH (cf. Num. 3:12,45; 8:14).
The priest (any priest) had to be paid a set price by the parents to buy back their firstborn male child (cf. Num. 18:16).
This seems to be reflected in Luke 2:23 and 27b, while the mother’s rite of purification is in Luke 2:22,24.
The rabbis say that this redemption can be done with any priest on the thirty-first day. This does not fit the timing of Mary’s forty-day uncleanness. Some scholars would see only two rituals in this context.

The Greek word “firstborn” (prōtotokos) is used in the Bible in several distinct senses
its OT background refers to
the firstborn belongs to YHWH (BDB 114, KB 131, cf. Exod. 13:2,12; 22:29; 34:19; Num. 3:13)
the pre-imminence of the firstborn son of the family (cf. Deut. 21:17; Ps. 89:27; Luke 2:7; Rom. 8:29; Heb. 1:6; 11:28)
used in the sense of a special, inaugurating choice by God (cf. Exod. 4:22; Jer. 31:9; also note God’s compassion for Ephraim in Hosea 11:8-10)
its use in Col. 1:15 speaks of Jesus as the first of creation which is a possible OT allusion to Prov. 8:22-31, or God’s agent of creation (cf. John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:15-16; Heb. 1:2)
its use in Col. 1:15,18; 1 Cor. 15:20,23; Rev. 1:5 refers to Jesus as the firstborn from the dead
it is an OT title used of the Messiah (cf. Ps. 89:27; Heb. 1:5,6; 12:23); it is a title which combines several aspects of the primacy and centrality of Jesus.

SPECIAL TOPIC: FIRSTBORN

J.

179

And that “title of status” when combined with the word “born” refers only to created beings; doesn’t it?

Do you know how many Trinitarians at other websites have come up with that same lame argument, Johann? And none of them can talk their way around the words “born” and “creation,” because those two words apply only to created beings.

“He [Jesus/the son/the Word] who is the image of The Unseen God and is The First born of all creation.”

Let’s see you talk your way around the words “born” and “creation,” which are applied only to beings that were created and therefore had a beginning.

Proceed.

NeutralZone

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". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. . . . " (James 1:19-20)

180

The truth. Jesus is God. He is the Word. There is no beginning. Not sure of your posting, Psalm 90:2 helps your incorrect conclusion.

You are misreading this.

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” Genesis 1

In the beginning, God. God was there in the beginning.

“And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:2

The Spirit was there in the beginning.

John 1:1

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.”

He was in the beginning. He was there with God, not created by God.

“All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” John 1:3-5

He created all things. The Word, Jesus.

“But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.” Hebrews 1:2

Did you read the very next verse?

“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” Colossians 1:16

If Paul wanted to say Jesus was the first thing ever made, he likely would have used the word protoktistos or first-created. Instead, he used prototokos, which is firstborn. In ancient Greek and Jewish culture, “firstborn” carried two distinct meanings:Chronological: The first child to be born. Legal/Status: The person who holds the “birthright,” supremacy, or sovereignty over a family, regardless of when they were born. It’s logically impossible for Jesus to be a “created thing” if all things were created by him. He is the “firstborn of all creation,” which means he holds the highest rank over everything that exists.

Then you have this.

“Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” 1 Corinthians 8:6

The scriptures say you are incorrect. I’m not sure if you are actually reading them or just reposting something you heard. Either way, you are incorrect.

May God be with you.

Peter

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No Scripturally sound rebuttal doesn’t make the above true just because you said it. Show me plainly in Scripture where what I said is untrue don’t just say it is, that is not a response.

I’m not sure it’s fair or helpful to compare my position to Islam, Mormonism, or Jehovah’s Witnesses simply because I hold a different understanding of the Godhead. I’m not appealing to a later prophet, another book, or a new revelation outside Scripture. I**’m appealing to the same biblical text we’re all reading,** and trying to interpret it through what I see as the Bible’s own starting point: the uncompromising monotheism that runs from the prophets through the apostles.

I’m also not asking anyone to abandon exegesis. In fact, my entire argument is built on taking the incarnation seriously and letting the humanity of Jesus explain the relational language in the Gospels. When Jesus prays, submits, learns obedience, or says “not my will but Yours,” I don’t see that as evidence of multiple eternal divine minds speaking to one another. I see the genuine human life of the Messiah interacting with the one God He reveals.

For me, the key issue is not whether Jesus shares in divine glory or preexistence in God’s purpose—I affirm both. The question is whether the text requires us to posit multiple eternal centers of divine self-awareness in order to explain those passages. I don’t see that requirement. I see one God whose Word and Spirit are His own self-expression and presence, and that one God fully manifested in the man Christ Jesus.

So my hesitation about the language of “three eternal persons” isn’t stubbornness for its own sake. It’s an attempt to preserve two things at the same time: that God is truly one, and that Jesus is truly human. If Jesus is genuinely human, then a human will, human prayer, and human submission make perfect sense without multiplying eternal divine subjects within God Himself.

I’m perfectly willing to keep examining the text and hearing other arguments. But disagreement over how best to interpret these passages doesn’t mean someone is closed to exegesis. It simply means we’re starting from different conclusions about how the biblical data fits together. My goal in the conversation isn’t to rehearse a slogan—it’s to wrestle with Scripture in a way that preserves both the oneness of God and the reality of the incarnation.

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183

Another one…

“This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.” Acts 2:23

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30

“God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:” Romans 11:2

“who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.” 1 Peter 1:2

“For He [Christ] was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” 1 Peter 1:20 NASB

This last verse is quite interesting since the context is speaking of Christ’s sacrifice being something already chosen or foreordained before the world.

The inspired authors could have also used the following language if all they wanted to say was that God had chosen or foreordained Christ for his mission long before he was created in his mother’s womb:

“The word of the LORD came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.’” Jeremiah 1:4-5

“I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man,” Galatians 1:11-16

Yet, unfortunately for both Badawi and Wierwille, neither Jesus nor the NT ever use such language, but speak quite plainly and unambiguously about his prehuman existence with the Father, just as the following verses amply testify:

“No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.” John 3:13

“Jesus then said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.’ … Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst… FOR I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.’ … So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, ‘I am the bread that came down from heaven.’ They said, ‘Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, “I have come down from heaven”?’” John 6:32-33, 35, 38, 41-42

Notice here that even Jesus’ contemporaries understood that Christ was claiming to have actually existed in heaven from whence he came down.

“This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh… As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” John 6:50-51, 57-58

“Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?” John 6:62

"Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came FROM/OUT OF God (ego gar EK tou theou) and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me… Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.’ So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being (prin Abraam genesthai), I am.’ So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.” John 8:42, 56-59

Here, Jesus says that he came out of (ek) God and was existing even before Abraham’s creation!

“do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?” John 10:36

“Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come FROM God and was going back to God (kai pros ton theon),” John 13:3

“for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came FROM God. I came FROM the Father and have come INTO THE WORLD, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father (kai poreuomai pros ton theon).” John 16:27-28

The foregoing examples conclusively demonstrate that Jesus was emphatically affirming that he actually and personally existed in heaven even before he became a man. John himself makes the very same point in his prologue:

Read the full article.

J.