Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Johann]

@Sam

ASSURANCE OF SALVATION

Can Christians know they are saved (cf. 1 John 5:13)? 1 John has three tests or evidences.
Doctrinal (belief, 1 John 1:1,5,10; 2:18-25; 4:1-6,14-16; 5:11-12)
Lifestyle (obedience, 1 John 2:2-3; 2:3-6; 3:1-10; 5:18)
Social (love, 1 John 1:2-3; 2:7-11; 3:11-18; 4:7-12, 16-21)
Assurance is difficult because
often believers seek certain experiences not promised in the Bible
often believers do not fully understand the gospel
often believers continue to willfully sin (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 9:27; 1 Tim. 1:19-20; 2 Tim. 4:10; 2 Pet. 1:8-11)
certain personality types (i.e., perfectionists) can never accept God’s unconditional acceptance and love
in the Bible there are examples of false professions (cf. Matt. 13:3-23; 7:21-23; Mark 4:14-20; 2 Pet. 2:19-20; 1 John 2:18-19, see SPECIAL TOPIC: Apostasy)
Believers’ primary assurance is linked to the character of the Triune God
God the Father’s love (see SPECIAL TOPIC: Characteristics of Israel’s God [OT])
John 3:16; 10:28-29
Romans 8:31-39
Ephesians 2:5,8-9
Philippians 1:6
1 Peter 1:3-5
1 John 4:7-21
God the Son’s actions
death on our behalf (i.e., Isaiah 53)
(1) Mark 10:45
(2) Acts 2:23
(3) Romans 5:6-11
(4) 2 Corinthians 5:21
(5) Heb. 9:28
(6) John 2:2; 4:9-10
high priestly prayer (John 17:12)
continuing intercession
(1) Romans 8:34
(2) Hebrews 7:25; 9:24
(3) 1 John 2:1
God the Spirit’s ministry
calling (John 6:44,65)
advocate ‒ John 14:16; 16:7
teacher ‒ John 14:26; 16:13; 1 John 2:27
intercessing, Rom. 8:26-27
sealing
(1) 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5
(2) Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:3
assuring internal witness
(1) Jphn 15:26
(2) Romans 8:16-17
(3) 1 John 5:7-13
But humans must respond to God’s covenant offer (both initially and continually)
believers must turn from sin (repentance, cf. Mark 1:4; SPECIAL TOPIC: Repentance [NT]) and to God through Jesus (faith)
Mark 1:15
Acts 3:16,19; 20:21; 26:20
believers must receive God’s offer in Christ (see SPECIAL TOPIC: What Does It Mean to “receive,” “believe,” “confess/profess,” “call upon”?)
John 1:12; 3:16
Romans 5:1 (and by analogy 10:9-13)
Ephesians 2:5,8-9
believers must continue in the faith (see SPECIAL TOPIC: Perseverance)
statements of Jesus (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13; John 8:31; 15:4-10; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21)
statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)
statements of the author of Hebrews (Heb. 2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:4-12; 10:26-27
statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9)
statement of the Father (Rev. 21:7)
remembering that the goal of salvation is Christlikeness
Romans 8:28-29
2 Corinthians 3:18
Galatians 4:19
Ephesians 1:4; 2:10; 4:13
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:3; 5:23
Titus 2:14
1 Peter 1:15
Assurance has become a denominational issue
John Calvin based assurance on God’s election. He said that we can never be certain in this life.
John Wesley based assurance on religious experience. He believed that believers have the ability to live above known sin (cf. Romans 6).
Roman Catholics and the Church of Christ base assurance on an authoritative Church. The group to which one belongs is the key to assurance.
Most evangelicals base assurance on the promises of the Bible, linked to the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Gal. 5:22-23) in the life of the believer (i.e., daily Christlikeness).

SPECIAL TOPIC: ASSURANCE

God bless.

J.

[TheologyNerd]

I have assurance because Christ died for me.

Assurance isn’t OSAS; it’s confidence–faith–in God’s word, His promises to us in the Gospel.

If I do not have faith, then I do not and cannot have assurance. In this way the one who believes and then turns away becoming apostate no longer has faith, and therefore no longer any assurance; Scripture warns of the danger of turning away, which is to be taken seriously; in the same breath we must proclaim the utmost seriousness of the Gospel–when God declares you are His, His word is irrevocable, the Prophet Isaiah reminds us that when God’s word goes forth from His mouth it never returns void and St. Paul is clear, nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. So there is naught that we can do to stop God from loving us, desiring us, calling us, drawing us, and declaring us His; but if I step out of my hope in Christ and come to hate Christ, or become apathetic about Christ, or in any other way reject Him–then it is not God’s word that fails, but rather we who have rejected God–God doesn’t reject us, and He never will.

[PeterC]

Here is my take. This is an excellent debate btw to all. Is there Salvation for the Saved? Forgiveness for the Forgiven? Can you lose your Salvation?

James 4:17
”Therefore, to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”

If I do not know that it is a sin to hold a grudge, and I do, am I sinning? Yes. However, can it be held against me? Not really. If I know the truth, that I must forgive to be forgiven, and I hold a grudge, then I am sinning knowingly, and it is held against me, and I am then accountable for it.

As it also says in…

2 Peter 2:20-21

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”

In other words, it would be better if you were never saved to begin with. That once you are, you then know and understand the Truth. If you turn away from that Truth, you become even worse off than you were before.

And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, the Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Hebrews 10:24-31

Jesus told us this truth.

“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.” “Matthew 12:43-45

In these passages, God is speaking to the saved, specifically to the Church, which is the body of Christ. Can you lose your salvation? It appears that the answer is yes. The notion of “once saved, always saved” may not be entirely truthful.

It makes sense when you think about it. If you come to me and say, “Please adopt me into your family,” I will agree. However, I will explain that to be part of my family, I will require the same qualities from you as I would from all my children. If you are a faithful and good child, you will inherit a share of my vast estate and fortune, just like all my other children.

However, you decide to stop coming to my house. You decide to go off and do your own thing. You decide to forsake my family and me. That is totally your choice. By doing this, though, you are disqualifying yourself from all my blessings and promises. I can not bless you, help you, or even show my love to you fully if you are no longer with me. As in all things, the choice is yours.

Peter

[Johann]

@PeterC

Can you lose your salvation? It appears that the answer is yes.

I would gently disagree here @PeterC

Once a person is saved are they always saved? Yes, when people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. To be clear, salvation is more than saying a prayer or “making a decision” for Christ; salvation is a sovereign act of God whereby an unregenerate sinner is washed, renewed, and born again by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). When salvation occurs, God gives the forgiven sinner a new heart and puts a new spirit within him (Ezekiel 36:26). The Spirit will cause the saved person to walk in obedience to God’s Word (Ezekiel 36:26–27; James 2:26). Numerous passages of Scripture declare the fact that, as an act of God, salvation is secure:

(a) Romans 8:30 declares, “And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.” This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed—he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 “Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.” Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.

(d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be “un-indwelt” and detached from the Body of Christ.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will “have eternal life.” If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never “eternal” at all. Hence, if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

(f) In a conclusive argument, Scripture says, “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38–39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved, we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!

SPECIAL TOPIC: NEW TESTAMENT EVIDENCE FOR ONE'S SALVATION

SPECIAL TOPIC: GREEK VERB TENSES USED FOR SALVATION

J.

[Johann]

@SincereSeeker

If they were never saved, how can they fall from something they never had?
If they were saved, how can they walk away unless that door is open?

Hebrews six describes people who were photisthentas which means exposed to gospel light, not regenerated. They tasted the heavenly gift which is geusamenous meaning sampling without internal appropriation. They became metochous which means covenant associates, not Spirit born sons. Not one salvation verb appears. No dikaioo, no synezopoiesen, no hagiasmenoi, no sphragizoo. The impossibility is that those who reject full revelation after standing so near have no further sacrifice. The writer is not describing believers losing salvation, he is describing unbelievers rejecting it.

Hebrews three is the same pattern. The wilderness generation heard the good news yet the writer says their hearts were poneras apistias which means evil unbelief. In Hebrews four the gospel did not profit them because it was not synchronized with faith. The syntax shows unbelief, not loss of regeneration.

John fifteen uses meno in the present tense which describes ongoing evidence of life, not the condition that creates life. The branches that are cut off were never regenerate. Jesus already applied this in John thirteen where He said not all of you are clean. Judas was en in the community but ouk en in the life. The fruitless branches were attached by covenant identity, not by new birth.

John ten uses harpasei which means violently snatch. Jesus says no force can remove His sheep. He also says His sheep hear His voice. That verb akouousin is present tense habitual action. Those who later depart were never His sheep because they never had that ongoing hearing and following.

Romans eight binds the whole salvation chain with aorist verbs. Proegno, proorisen, ekalesen, edikaiosen, edoxasen. Glorified is past tense because the outcome is certain. There is no grammatical category for self removal. Paul would need a separate verb expressing voluntary severance. He never gives one.

Galatians five says fallen from grace, yet Paul is addressing men seeking justification through law. If righteousness comes through the law, Christ will benefit nothing. The verb katargethesei in Galatians five two shows their approach voids Christ from the beginning. You cannot fall from a grace you never stood in.

Second Timothy two says if we deny Him, He will deny us, but the next line says if we are faithless, He remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself. The denial is judicial rejection of those who never belonged. The promise to believers is grounded in His own nature.

First Peter one five uses phrouroumenoi which is a divine passive meaning guarded by God through faith. The faith is sustained by His guarding. The new covenant promise in Ezekiel thirty six says God causes His people to walk in His ways. The verb is asah which means God produces the obedience.

First John two nineteen is decisive. Those who depart never belonged. They did not fall from regeneration, they revealed they never possessed it. The verb emphanothosin means their departure reveals their true nature.

Demas loved this present world which is agapesas in the aorist. John says whoever loves the world does not have the love of the Father. If Demas was regenerate, John’s test would collapse. His departure shows the truth, not the loss of salvation.

Peter’s failure in Luke twenty two uses ekleipe which describes an eclipse, a temporary obscuring. Jesus prayed that Peter’s faith would not be extinguished and that prayer is effectual. True faith falters but does not die.

Every warning you quote is real yet none describe a justified, washed, Spirit born man being unmade. The warnings sift the false. The promises secure the true. The cross creates perseverance. The Shepherd keeps His own.

Not one text shows a regenerate man becoming unregenerate. Not one.

J.

[Joanne.1966]

Assurance has become a denominational issue
John Calvin based assurance on God’s election. He said that we can never be certain in this life.
John Wesley based assurance on religious experience. He believed that believers have the ability to live above known sin (cf. Romans 6).
Roman Catholics and the Church of Christ base assurance on an authoritative Church. The group to which one belongs is the key to assurance.
Most evangelicals base assurance on the promises of the Bible, linked to the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Gal. 5:22-23) in the life of the believer (i.e., daily Christlikeness).

I’d like to ask which one you believe in? I’ve pondered this so many times. “Am I saved? I was a child when I accepted Christ, but what does a child truly understand? I didn’t really understand what “being saved” really meant, nor did I truly understand the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross. I thought that I was to “behave” a certain way, but I was 9 years old. Now, understanding so much more, experiencing the conviction of the Holy Spirit, feeling the love of God, trusting in Christ when he says “trust me” in difficult, trying, confusing times in my life, and feeling a “power” that is not my own when I’m praying for someone, interceding in prayer for my sons who reject God (my younger son, but he believes in Jesus, and my older son who doesn’t believe that Jesus is the Way), for other members of my family that don’t believe, for strangers, for people I have even met. I guess I lean toward evangelical, but Calvinism raises some pertinent questions about “election” Are we not being set apart? Hebrews..just don’t ask me the exact verse, I’m not very good at bringing exact verses to mind like you (which just amazes me btw. I have a friend who can fire off a verse for every occasion from memory and it just blows me away!) Is that not “election”.

A very confusing topic for sure.

[Joanne.1966]

Choice. Such a powerful thing, isn’t it. Your analogy is actually something I think about. I turned away from God, but returned as the prodigal. I turned my back on God for the most part of my adult life, living fully in sin, and in the world. Even turning to paganism. Yet, when I look back, I see God’s hand all over my life, particularly the sinful part of my life. He kept showing up. I was baptized in 2024, but that wasn’t the day that my life took a 180. It was the day my friend asked me if I knew Jesus. I remember thinking “I used to know Him. I want to know Him again”. That was the day my life changed. Everything changed. The day I surrendered to Him was the day I fell on my knees, in despair and prayed. Not for rescue, or immediate relief or anything, but for understanding. Why were these things happening in my life? “ I know you have a plan, and all of this is part of it, but I don’t understand, please help me understand?” And He answered.

So, I did forsake Him by choice, but also returned by choice. I could use a little help in understanding this.

[Johann]

@Joanne.1966

Assurance has become a denominational issue
John Calvin based assurance on God’s election. He said that we can never be certain in this life.
John Wesley based assurance on religious experience. He believed that believers have the ability to live above known sin (cf. Romans 6).
Roman Catholics and the Church of Christ base assurance on an authoritative Church. The group to which one belongs is the key to assurance.
Most evangelicals base assurance on the promises of the Bible, linked to the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Gal. 5:22-23) in the life of the believer (i.e., daily Christlikeness).

@Joanne.1966
Good to see that you are reading Utley alongside the Scriptures, because his Special Topics will give you the answers you are looking for, complete with the grammar, syntax, and linguistic structure that keep the text anchored in what the original author actually intended. You can also download StepBible gratis, and remember that Scripture often speaks in dialectical pairs of doctrinal truths, two realities held together in tension like light working with shadow to reveal depth.

Utley writes that biblical interpretation is both rational and spiritual, a process that seeks to understand an ancient inspired writer whose message must still be heard and lived in our own generation. The spiritual side is essential although difficult to define, involving openness before God, a heart that hungers for Him, a desire to know Him, and a willingness to serve Him. It expresses itself through prayer, confession, and the readiness for personal transformation. The Spirit is vital in this work even though sincere believers sometimes arrive at different conclusions, which remains a mystery known fully only to God.

The rational side is easier to describe, requiring fairness to the text and a commitment to avoid letting our own preferences or denominational assumptions cloud what Scripture actually says. We all stand in our own historical setting and none of us is a neutral observer. Utley offers a careful method that helps us fight those biases and stay close to the inspired author’s flow of thought.

He continues by stressing that interpretation begins with following the original author’s intent at the paragraph level. His commentary is a study guide which means you remain responsible for your own interpretation of the Bible. Each believer must walk in the light they have. The priority in interpretation rests with you, the text, and the Spirit working together, not with any commentator. Read the entire chapter in one sitting, identify the subjects, compare your divisions with various translations, and remember that while paragraphing is not inspired it is the primary key to tracing the author’s argument because every paragraph carries one central subject that must be heard and followed.

Election/Predestination and the Need for a Theological Balance

A little bit about him.

While teaching hermeneutics in an OMS seminary in Haiti, God spoke to Bob’s heart about providing his Bible studies free to the world. He structured his commentaries to provide an in-depth resource for churches, pastors and lay people. The Bible studies emphasize the original author’s intent, by means of: (1) literary context, (2) the historical setting, (3) word study options, (4) grammar features, (5) genre, and (6) parallel passages.

Several years ago Bob’s commentaries were included in the Logos Bible Study Software. Soon after, Logos contacted Bob on behalf of Dr. Bill Bright (Founder of Campus Crusade for Christ) to include his NT commentaries on a CD-Rom of training material for CCC ministers. They planned to translate them into 50 languages and give them away free of charge. However, Bill Bright went to be with Jesus before the project was finished. Because of his experience in Haiti and the anticipation of the project with CCC, Bob felt this was Divine direction for him to pursue this new task of providing Bible studies free to the worldwide Body of Christ.

Bible Lessons International now produces exegetical commentaries and other Bible study aids in 48 languages and puts them online free for the world. You can:

read them online
download them to your hard drive
print them out
Bob has earned academic degrees from

East Texas Baptist College
Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary with Biblical Languages
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
Has done post-graduate work at Baylor University
Wycliffe Bible Translators’ Summer Institute of Linguistics
He has pastored several churches in Texas and has been Interim Pastor of over 20 churches in Texas and Louisiana. Bob taught for 16 years in the Religion Department at East Texas Baptist University. Currently he conducts Bible Conferences and Revivals in the U.S. and abroad, mostly by zoom.

Shalom.

J.

[Joanne.1966]

Thank you @Johann As always, you give me much food for thought. I’ve been reading my study version bible, employing the techniques you have outlined in previous posts. It has made a difference in how I’m “hearing” God, what He is saying to me, how I’m to respond, etc. Just like punctuation can clear up confusion - let’s eat grandma…let’s eat, grandma - context is providing me with a deeper understanding of what was written, to whom, the context, the culture, etc. I often try to imagine myself living in the time of Abraham, and how vastly different my modern, convenience-filled, comfortable like is.

My book wish list continues to grow.

Just a quick observation about Utely - the fact that he offered his teachings and information for free is what struck me. I’ve reached out to certain individuals through their websites, only to find out they offer “workshops” that start in the range of $2000 USD. I believe that ministry should be free, that we should be willing to minister, to teach, to encourage, to mentor for free..as Jesus did. There are many others like Utely, who even offer courses in Ministry Sciences, with the options of Degrees and fancy letters after one’s name, for free, or administration costs which are nominal.

Shalom!

[Johann]

Glad to be of service, @Joanne.1966 , and I genuinely appreciate the encouragement from your side. I have had Utley on my e Sword for many years now, and his work has helped me grow in a deeper appreciation of our Lord Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit who continues to shape our understanding as we keep returning to the text.

On forums these conversations about election, salvation, and whether one can fall away must be approached with caution, exactly as you noted, because they have become deeply denominational matters. Every stream carries its own set of biases, whether Calvinism, Arianism, Pelagianism, or any other system that claims to possess the full and unfiltered truth. It takes patience and Scripture centered humility to sift through all of that without losing the simplicity of Christ.

You take care, and stay steady in Messiah now.

J.

[PeterC]

@Joanne.1966

So, I did forsake Him by choice, but also returned by choice. I could use a little help in understanding this.

As I was talking about my kids, and you about the Prodigal Son, or in your case, the Prodigal Daughter, you left by choice. If any of my kids chose to get up and leave, that would be their choice. No, does that change my LOVE for them? No. Of course not.

“The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.” Lamentations 3:22-23

I was not God who left. It was not me who left. It was the child. Now, as for my case, I’m still at 123 Glory Lane. Not a real address. But this is where my kids grew up. Where they learned, were taken care of, and grew. This is the address they left to go out on their own. I’m still there. My love for them is still them. My provisions for them are still there. As my other children are provided for, eat, learn, and grow, I am always looking out for the other to return.

”So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.” 1 John 4:16

We have the foundation. We have the Word in us, and the love of God around us. The Spirit is calling us back. However, we can stay away if we so choose.

“Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Revelation 2:5

Also, here to think about.

“But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.” Ezekiel 18:24

Or, we can go back and be embraced and loved once again. When we do return. When we do repent, we are forgiven.

“Return, O faithless sons; I will heal your faithlessness.” “Behold, we come to you, for you are the Lord our God.” Jeremiah 3:22

God is loving and forgiving.

“If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14

God does not cast you out. He does not send you to hell. He does not wish that on any human.

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

I believe what you felt was the tug of the Holy Spirit. The remembrance of God and His love for you. You responded and returned. All the praise and glory be to God. I’m glad you did.

I would LOVE to be wrong here. I really would. I would love OSAS to be real. However, I believe that although nothing can separate us from God, we have the free will to walk away. If not, then it is no longer a gift, but a forced and mandatory thing. Either that, or a license to sin.

Peter

[Joanne.1966]

Thank you so very much @PeterC that really helped to clear things up for me. When I turned away it was because of the hypocrisy I was witnessing in the church I was attending..and near-miss with a predator within the church - the pastor’s wife, of all people. I was 9 when this happened, but stayed with the church another 4 years. I tried so very hard to not let the hypocrisy and her get to me..but I was 13 and felt no support within the church, nor at home. I told no one about the incident. I knew they’d call me a liar and toss me out. My heart was broken, and I felt I had been abandoned.

But when I think back on my life, I see God’s faithfulness to me, even though I turned away, and recall little memories of “nudgings”. As if God was saying “I’m sill here. Just turn around and look.” Turn around. God kept His promise that He would never abandon me.

But I can understand how some Christians use OSAS as a get out of hell free card, as they continue to live their sinful lives, thinking..actually saying “Oh, I was baptized so I’m good”, yet continue their lives of lust for money, sexual promiscuity, harboring resentment. being hateful, so forth and so on.

I am His. The Bible says so. And I rest in His promises, and His word.

Thank you again.

[Johann]

@Joanne.1966

But I can understand how some Christians use OSAS as a get out of hell free card, as they continue to live their sinful lives, thinking..actually saying “Oh, I was baptized so I’m good”,

Just to understand where I’m coming from when mentioning “OSAS” @Joanne.1966

~Ephesians 1:13 to 14
Berean Bible
In Him, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.
The key verb here is esphragisthēte (ἐσφραγίσθητε) meaning you were sealed, an aorist passive indicative which grammatically presents a completed act done to the believer by God Himself with the passive voice underlining that the believer is the recipient rather than the agent, and the aorist giving the whole action as a single decisive sealing event that stands as the inaugural work of the Spirit, while the syntax ties the sealing to the subsequent phrase the pledge of our inheritance where arrabōn (ἀρραβών) means down payment or earnest deposit, a commercial legal term that marks a guarantee of final possession, and the prepositional phrase until the redemption expresses temporal extension that reaches forward to the eschaton which means Paul is asserting that the sealing functions as God’s own guarantee that He Himself carries the believer all the way to final redemption, and synonymous verses that echo this logic include ~Romans 8:30 where the aorist verbs for justified and glorified run together to show God’s unbroken chain of action upon His people.

~Ephesians 4:30
Berean Bible
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The participial structure en hō esphragisthēte (ἐν ᾧ ἐσφραγίσθητε) builds directly upon the same aorist passive indicative seen earlier which again gives the sealing as a completed divine act, and the prepositional phrase for the day of redemption functions purposefully to show the sealing is teleological, meaning it is designed by God to bring the believer all the way to the final day, and though the command not to grieve the Spirit is real, the syntax does not place the sealing at the mercy of human mood or behavior because the grammar stands independent of the imperative, and synonymous echoes include ~Jude 24 where God is described as the One who is able to keep you from stumbling, with tērēsai (τηρῆσαι) as an aorist infinitive showing the complete preserving action rooted in divine power.

~2 Corinthians 1:22
Berean Bible
He has also sealed us as His own and placed His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.
Here Paul uses sphragizō (σφραγίζω) again but this time in the participial construction ho kai sphragisamenos hēmas (ὁ καὶ σφραγισάμενος ἡμᾶς) with an aorist middle participle where the middle voice emphasizes God’s personal involvement and vested interest in sealing His people in Himself, and the aorist participle presents the sealing as a completed divine initiative that becomes the ground for the second phrase that describes the Spirit as the pledge arrabōn (ἀρραβών) which appears again to reinforce the binding legal force of a guarantee, and in Pauline syntax this functions as a divine self commitment that mirrors contractual certainty, and synonymous support appears in ~Philippians 1:6 where Paul’s perfect confidence is rooted in the truth that He who began a good work will bring it to completion, with epitelesē (ἐπιτελέσει) a future active indicative showing God’s direct action in finalizing what He started.

~John 10:27 to 29
Berean Bible
My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me, and I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of My hand, My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all and no one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
The verbs here carry heavy protective force, ou mē apolōntai (οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται) uses the double negative ou mē for the strongest possible negation in Greek combined with the aorist middle subjunctive of apollumi which gives the sense they will absolutely not perish, and the future indicative didōmi (δίδωμι) for I give them eternal life carries durative certainty because the giver is the Son who possesses life in Himself, and the verb harpasei (ἁρπάσει) for snatch is a future active indicative negated twice to intensify impossibility, and in Johannine syntax the parallel possession of the sheep by the Son and the Father forms an unbreakable unity of protection, and the closest synonymous scriptural echo is ~Romans 8:38 to 39 where Paul stacks a crescendo of forces and persons and powers and concludes that nothing will separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
^^^^^^^^^
My reading of the texts leads me to one clear conclusion in one long unbroken line of thought, that once a believer is sealed in Christ by the Spirit whom Paul calls the arrabōn meaning the divine pledge, that sealing cannot be undone, unmade, reversed, or peeled off, because the grammar of those aorist passive verbs stands like a granite monument announcing a completed act of God that no creature can overturn, and my conviction on this point does not rise from denominational slogans or Calvinistic frameworks but from the raw textual force of Scripture itself where the Spirit acts, Christ holds, the Father keeps, and the seal remains.

{space will not permit me to elaborate}

Shalom.

J.

[Corlove13]

Just seen my Favorite subject; OSAS.

I cannot say that I am always saved. I would love to but it’s not always how I feel.

I think of save as knowing God is with me. That means experiencing his presence of life and peace.

I wish to say I always felt this but I don’t. I believe there is a condition and that condition is to remain in Christ.

The location of forgiveness is in Christ. Living out His teaching. So then one might say- salvation is as long as you remain in His son.

Hence, Willard might say: Why do people see salvation as a one time event instead of everyday life we receive from God?

Blood is said to cleanse us when we **

walk

** in the Spirit.

I believe faith is power, “walking” in what we believe. It is those actions of our mind, hence our moving feet that to me is the power that coincides with what Christ is doing in the world,

Therefore His will is being done in my life when I am Caught up in the actions of God. I believe everything is already finished. It’s open to us to step into. And faith can be moving in what has been finished.

So that beggs the question of what it means to really believe. Can fear and belief exist at the same time?

I think that is also why when we see the term believeth it denotes continual action; as to : keep on believing."

Blessings and cursings are set before us we must choose life so that we may live.

And there we see the good news to all: that life is available under the rule of God, in the kingdom for anyone who believes who He is. Why believeth? Because Jesus died for our sins was burried arose from the dead never to die again. He was seen by many after His resurrection and Is on the right hand of the father.

[Corlove13]

Aren’t you given the Spirit to obey?

You still have to obey the Spirit you were Marked with.

Is it a a pledge or promise of inheritance as long as you obey.

If you can grieve the Spirit you were marked with..what are the effects of him being grieved?

So when you get to the day of redemption and the Spirit goes back to God…what would one’s transformation look like if they didn’t continue to obey. Will one be able to stand amongst the Holy one?

The view or outlook is to Redemption Day.

[Corlove13]

My sheep hear my voice…

My friend believes as long as your mind is set on God you are saved. Another words you can fall but will get back up.

Here’s the the debate we have. Can you be a citizen of a country and not obey its rules?

What makes a person a citizen. They were born in the country.

So if that determines salvation…then I wonder if how much you are saved is your reward. How much you can take being around God who is Holy.

For everyone will be judged based on the deeds done in the body. My guess is how far or how close we get to be to God is our reward. Just a thought of course.

But I do believe one cannot have fear as foundation. For if love is to grow it must begin with love. HENCE GOD IS THE BEGINNING AND END OF ALL THINGS AND IT’S WHAT WE DO IN THE MIDDLE WITH HIM THAT DETERMINES OUR FATE.

WE LEARN TO REMAIN IN Him…we have a taste of the life to come. Hence no one can pluck you out of His hand because that eternal life Is too good to ever want to pass up. My opinion of course.

[Johann]

@Corlove13

Here’s the the debate we have

Oh, sorry, didn’t realize we have a debate.
One question though, do you have assurance re your salvation?

J.

[Joanne.1966]

@Johann

I’ve replied to your response..but in an email. I do this often, forgetting that my reply doesn’t end up here in the forum.

I have questions

[Corlove13]

…“here’s the debate we have” meaning my friend and I

[Johann]

My email @Joanne.1966 ?

Or the Chatbox?

J.