Does the Bible Teach That Communion Brings Healing?

Communion, eucharist, Lord’s Table, or whatever you want to call it, in essence is a covenant meal. Any attempt to describe it apart from covenant is bound to be at best partial, and at worst misleading. As our Lord said when He instituted it:

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

Everything inherent in the New Covenant is represented in the bread and wine. Read Jeremiah 31.31-35 and Isaiah 53 for descriptions of what all is included in the New Covenant. Healing and forgiveness of sins are definitely included, but it is not the symbolic act itself. It is in the Covenant.

After reading the entire thread, I have carefully considered both sides of the discussion. It’s clear that Samuel’s argument systematically addresses the key textual, grammatical, and historical points regarding the Eucharist. The reasoning carefully engages the Johannine discourse, the Greek terminology, the Passover context, and the witness of the early Church Fathers. In contrast, your responses, while informative about Catholic liturgy and tradition, largely focus on symbolic interpretation and ecclesial practice, and do not fully respond to the nuanced exegetical and theological challenges raised.

From this perspective, Samuel’s presentation provides a more comprehensive explanation of the Real Presence, offering a coherent account of both the scriptural and patristic evidence. While your insights remain valuable in understanding Catholic praxis, the argument for Real Presence as articulated here is compelling and difficult to counter.

I will not engage much further, but I will continue to read the discussion carefully.

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No problemos @ILOVECHRIST and will leave you with this.

In 1 Corinthians 11, the context clearly shows that the Supper is a memorial. Paul commands, touto poieite eis ten anamnesin mou (do this in remembrance of me), and the Greek term anamnesis carries the sense of actively calling the past salvific act into present consciousness, not effectuating a literal transformation of the bread or wine. The problem Paul addresses is dichorizesthe (dividing yourselves) and pleonexeo (acting selfishly), for some were feasting while others went hungry, a social and ethical violation. The warning about judgment, that “some have become weak and sick, and some have died” (nekroi de tines egeneto), is linked to proskartereo (failing to give proper attention) to the community, not to some mystical property of ordinary bread.

The Greek soma and haima function here as symbolic referents, pointing to Christ’s real flesh and blood on the cross, and koinonia (participation) expresses spiritual fellowship with His sacrifice rather than a physical ingestion of divinity. The emphasis is on diakrinō to sōma (discern the body) spiritually, recognizing both Christ’s work and the unity of the ekklēsia. Paul’s repeated exhortation to examine oneself (anakrino heauton) and wait for one another (anameno), and his insistence that the meal be orderly, shows that the Supper is ethical, covenantal, and commemorative, not ontological.

Therefore, the real presence of Christ is in faithful remembrance, proclamation, and participation in His death and resurrection, not in the elements themselves. The bread and cup are signs, and the judgment Paul mentions flows from hamartano (sin) and pleonexia (selfishness) within the body of believers, not from any physical transformation of ordinary food. This memorialist reading harmonizes the Greek text, the Corinthian context, and the ethical weight Paul attaches to the Supper, showing that the sacredness of the meal lies in the faithful enactment of Christ’s command rather than in the substances themselves.

Shalom Achi, to you and family.

J.

Thanks a lot brother.
Peace to you as well brother

@Johann, your analysis is excellent as usual. I would add that I did a word study of the words “remember” and ”remembrance” in seminary. The words in the Old Testament are always in the context of required action that results from remembering, not just a mental action. Basically, it means acting on the worship ceremony at hand. When we worship with the sacrament, we resolve to carry out God’s Word in our lives. We aren’t just recalling what Jesus did for us.

May God’s blessings be abundant in your life, Johann!

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And our Lord Christ Jesus shalom to you and family, my brother @Bruce_Leiter

1 Thessalonians 1:2–3: “We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.”

J.

Brother @ILOVECHRIST fine, no problem, but try to interact with us.
You correctly note that for Catholics, the Eucharist is the summit of prayer, an obligatory participation on Sundays and Holy Days, divided into the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. However, you frame this as burdensome legalism, ignoring its roots in apostolic practice and divine mandae.
The obligation stems from the Third commandment (Exod 20:8–11; Deut 5:12–15), fulfilled in the New Covenant as the Lord’s Day (Rev 1:10, Acts 20:7), where the breaking of bread is central (1 Cor 11:23-26). This is no arbitrary rule but a participation in the eternal liturgy of heaven where Christ, the High Priest, offers Himself perpetually.
The Liturgy of the Word, readings, Psalms, Gospel, homily and intercessions perpares the faithful for the sacramental encounter, echoing the Emmaus road where Christ expounds Scriptures before breaking bread. The Liturgy of the Eucharist then actualizes this:
bread and wine become Christ’s Body and Blood shared “in remembrance”, not mere recollection, but a covenantal re-presentation that makes present the Paschal mystery.
St. Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Ephesians) urges
“Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ… to break one bread, which is the medicine of immortality.”
2. The Eucharist as Sacrifice
Really, I felt sad reading this. You quote the CCC on the Eucharist as sacrifice that “re-presents” Christ’s cross calling it “one single sacrifice” with the same victim (Christ) offered unbloodily through priests. Yet, you insert a distortion:

ignoring ISa 53:7-12 (the Suffering Servant as “an offering for sin”) and Hebrews 9:26-28 (Christ “offered once to bear the sins of many”)
Christ is indeed the voluntary victim, as He declares:
“No one takes [my life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord” (John 10:18)

The Eucharist does not “repeat” or “add to” the cross but makes its fruits present, as Trent affirms in Session 22, Canon 1:
“It is one and the same victim… only the manner of offering is different.”
This is rooted in the Greek thysia (Sacrifice) of the Septuagint and the NT. Malachi 1:10-11, prophesies a “pure offering” (minchah tahorah) among the Gentiles, in every place, fulfilled not in vague “living sacrifices” (Rom 12:1) as you suggest bout in the universal Eucharistic oblation. Paul in Romans 12:1 exhorts ethical living as rational worship, but this complements, not replaces, the cultic sacrifices of 1 Cor 10:16-21, where the Eucharist is contrasted with pagan altars. The Fathers confirm:
Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures 23:8, c. 350 AD) calls the Eucharist “the spiritual sacrifice, the bloodless worship,” and John Chrysostom (Homilies on Hebrews 17.3) explains it as the “commemoration” that applies Calvary’s merits.
The “pure offering in every place” cannot be mere bodily dedication as Romans 12:1 is personal, not universal or ritual; the Eucharist, however, is offered globally in consecrated Churches, fulfilling Malachi’s catholicity. . Orthodox theology echoes this in the Liturgy of St. Basil: “We offer to Thee this reasonable and unbloody sacrifice.”
3.Transubstantiation and the Real Presence
You cite Trent on transubstantiation, the charge of the whole substance of bread and wine into Body and Blood of Christ, while dismissing it as unbiblical. Yet this Aristotelian terminology articulates the mystery affirmed since apostolic times. The Greek metabole (change) appears in patristic writings:
Theodore of Mopsuestia (Catechetical Homilies 6.1, c. 390 AD) states, “He did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but ‘This is my body’… by His divine power He changed them.” Ambrose (On the Mysteries 9:52) declares, “Before the blessing… it is bread; but when the words of Christ come to it, it is the body of Christ.”
Scripture demands this realism:
In Matthew 26:26, (touto estin to sōma mou, “This is my body”) estin denotes identity, not representation (contrast “I am the door”, clarified as metaphor). 1 Cor 10:16 asks rhetorically:
“The bread that we break, is it not a participation (koinōnia) in the body of Christ?”
koinōnia implies real communion, not symbolic. Unworthy reception brings judgement (1 Cor 11:27-30), as profaning a symbol incurs no such guilt.
Your appeal to John 6:32-58 ignores the discourse’s structure:
Jesus shits from phagein (general eating) to trōgōn (chewing/gnawing), a visceral escalation provoking scandal. The audience’s literal reaction:
How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Mirrors what..guess..The Incarnation’s offence (John 1:14), not a misunderstanding of symbolism

4.John 6:63, and the Spiritual Mode
You claim that John 6:63 (“The flesh profits nothing; the Spirit gives life”) proves non-literalism, equating bread with Torah. This is a misreading if.
Sarx (flesh) refers to carnal understanding unaided by grace, not Christ’s Eucharistic flesh, which He calls “true food”.
Cyril of Alexandria (Commentary on John 4.2) clarifies: “He does not say that His own flesh profits nothing—for how could that be, which is the life?—but the fleshly hearing, the understanding without faith.”
The Spirit (pneuma) vivfies the sacramental act, as in the epiclesis (invocation of the Holy Spirit) in Orthodox and Catholic liturgies.

Your Jewish “bread as Torah” analogy fails:
Jesus surpasses Torah (John 6:49-51l Matt 5:17-20), offering himself as the new Manna (Exod 16; John 6:31-35). Sirach (apocryphal but illustrative) speaks of the Law leaving one hungry; Christ satisfies eternally (John 6:35).

This interpretation avoids Docetism and affirms theosis:
partaking of Christ’s Body deifies us (2 Peter 1:4; Athanasius, On the Incarnation 54).

Peace
Sam

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Johann,I’d like to start over again with an open mind. Could you provide a substantive counter?

  • Please show me Greek sources — from literature and grammar — that support your reading.
  • Please give at least one patristic source, in full context, so I can see the reasoning, not just an isolated phrase.
  • And please explain from within the Orthodox and Catholic frameworks how they fail to align with Scripture, using real evidence.

I’ve tried to lay out my side with Scripture, Greek, and the Fathers. I’m asking this in good faith, because even I want to learn if I’ve missed something.

I’m always open to correction @Johann
Links and specific book references (with page numbers, if possible) would be greatly appreciated.
Peace
Sam
edit:

  • Institution Narratives: Matthew 26:26–28; Mark 14:22–24; Luke 22:19–20; 1 Corinthians 11:23–29
  • Bread of Life Discourse: John 6:30–71 (esp. vv. 51–58, “trogein”)
  • Paul’s Theology: 1 Corinthians 10:16–21 (“participation in the body and blood”), 1 Corinthians 11:27–30 (judgment for unworthy eating)
  • Old Testament Typology: Exodus 12 (Passover lamb), Exodus 16 (Manna), Leviticus 7:15; 22:9, 2 Samuel 6:6–7, Malachi 1:11
  • Other Relevant Passages: Luke 24:30–31 (Emmaus), Acts 2:42, Hebrews 9–10

Thank you @Samuel_23 And @Johann , I will follow you all in this discussion as well. I’ll be reading each post carefully, word by word, to learn and to test whether it truly holds up.

Peace to you.

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Ok then welcome @ILOVECHRIST brother…
Im sorry since I had some assignments etc…

Sorry brother @ILOVECHRIST, since I was busy I wasnt able to answer.
But here I come, I appreciate your patience
The New Testament’e eucharistic texts employ Greek vocabulary and syntax that resists purely metaphorical interpretations, aligning with literal, transformative connotations. Here I give some:

  1. The copula estin in Touto estin to sōma mou (“This is my Body”):
    In Koine Greek, the verb esin (from eimi “to be”) functions as a copula linking subject and predicate. While it can introduce metaphors like “I am the door” in John 10:9, where contexts signal allegory via explanatory clauses, the eucharistic formula lacks such qualifiers (@ILOVECHRIST, very imp). Classical grammarians like Dionysius Thrax in Technē Grammatikē (referece) classify eimi as a substantive verb, that in declarative sentences without modifiers denotes identity or essence rather than similitude. The LXX, estin often conveys literal equivalence as in Gen 41:26, “The seven good cows are [estin] seven years” where Joseph interprets Pharaoh’s dreams.
    Literary parallels from classical sources this. In Plato’s Republic, eimi describes as the “being” of forms in a non-metaphroical sense, emphasizing substantial reality. Similarly in Aristotle’s Categories, the copula links substance to predicates without implying mere representation. Applied to the eucharistic words, the absence of particles like hos (“as”) or eikon (“image”) common in symbolic language suggests a declarative act of institution, not analogy.
    Protestant Scholar J. Jeremias in The Eucharistic Words of Jesus (SCM PRESS 1966) notes that the Aramaic substratum (hu’ guphi) underlying the greek implies a semitic identificatory forumla, akin to Passover haggadah where symbols become realities in ritual reenactment. This supports an Orthodox reading where the words effect a metabole (change), as in John Damascene’s Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (4.13).
  2. The Verb “Trōgein” in John 6:51–58:
    My main argument was that:
    John shifts from the common verb phagein “to eat” used in vv.49-53 for general consumption to trōgein “to gnaw, chew, munch” in vv 54. 56-58.
    This is no mere stylistic variant; trōgein carries visceral literal connontations in classical Greek literature. In Homer’s lliad (24.642), it describes animals gnawing bones, emphasizing raw, physical mastication. The Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek-English lexicon (9th ed, Oxford, 1940) defines trōgō as “gnaw, nibble, munch” primarily for literal eating, especially of raw or tough substance substnces and notes its rarity in metaphorical contexts before the Hellenistic period. In Aristophanes’ Frogs it humorously depicts crunching food, underscoring corporeality.
    In Johannine context, this escalation intensifes the scandalm where disciples murmur and depart, implying a literal deamnd unacceptable to symbolic hearers.
    The Catholic exegete Raymond Brown the The Gospel According to John (I-XII) argues that trōgein’s graphic nature precludes metaphor, aligning with John’s incarnational theology. Orthodox Theologian Alexander Schmemann echoes this in The Eucharist: Sacrament of the Kingdom, viewing it as eucharisitc foreshadowing where “eating” effects deification, not mere remembrance.

Sources please @Samuel_23 brother, so I can look into it

Patristic Witnesses
The Church Fathers unanimously affirm the Real Presence, viewing the Eucharist as Christ’s true Body and Blood. A prime Orthodox example is St. Cyril of Jerusalem
here is one:
"1. Having learned these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, ‘And bread strengtheneth man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil’ (Ps 104:15)—strengthen thou thine heart by partaking thereof as spiritual, and make the face of thy soul to shine. And so having it unveiled with a pure conscience, mayest thou ‘reflect as a mirror the glory of the Lord’ (2 Cor 3:18), and proceed from glory to glory, in Christ Jesus our Lord:—To whom be honour, and might, and glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

  1. Next after the spiritual things of which we have spoken, there follows quite consistently the ‘Our Father.’… [Cyril discusses the Lord’s Prayer in the liturgy.]
  2. After this the Priest says, ‘Holy things to holy men.’ Holy are the gifts presented, having received the visitation of the Holy Ghost; holy are ye also, having been deemed worthy of the Holy Ghost; the holy things therefore correspond to the holy persons. Then ye say, ‘One is Holy, One is the Lord, Jesus Christ.’ For One in truth is Holy, by nature holy; we too are holy, but not by nature, but by participation, and discipline, and prayer.
  3. After this ye hear the chanter inviting you with a sacred melody to the communion of the Holy Mysteries, and saying, ‘O taste and see that the Lord is good’ (Ps 34:8). Trust not the judgment to thy bodily palate; no, but to faith unfaltering; for they who taste are bidden to taste, not bread and wine, but the anti-typical Body and Blood of Christ.
  4. In approaching therefore, come not with thy wrists extended, or thy fingers spread; but making thy left hand a throne for thy right, as for that which is to receive a King, and having hollowed thy palm, receive the Body of Christ, saying over it, Amen. Then after having carefully hallowed thine eyes by the touch of the Holy Body, partake of it; giving heed lest thou lose any portion thereof; for whatever thou losest, is evidently a loss to thee as it were from one of thine own members. For tell me, if any one gave thee grains of gold, wouldest thou not hold them with all carefulness, being on thy guard against losing any of them, and suffering loss? Wilt thou not then much more carefully keep watch, that not a crumb fall from thee of what is more precious than gold and precious stones?
  5. Then after thou hast partaken of the Body of Christ, draw near also to the Cup of His Blood; not stretching forth thine hands, but bending, and saying with an air of worship and reverence, Amen, hallow thyself by partaking also of the Blood of Christ. And while the moisture is still upon thy lips, touch it with thine hands, and hallow thine eyes and brow and the other organs of sense. Then wait for the prayer, and give thanks unto God, who hath accounted thee worthy of so great mysteries.
  6. Hold fast these traditions undefiled and keep yourselves free from offence. Sever not yourselves from the Communion; deprive not yourselves through the pollution of sins, of these Holy and Spiritual Mysteries. And the God of peace sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit, and soul, and body be preserved entire without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:23):—To whom be glory and honour and might, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and world without end. Amen."

In context, Cyril’s lecture follows baptismal instruction, unveiling the “mysteries” (mystagogia) to neophytes. He insists the elements “seem” bread and wine but are Christ’s Body and Blood post-consecration (via the Holy Spirit’s descent), invoking Ps 104 and 2 Cor for spiritual efficacy. This rejects symbolism: the Eucharist is “anti-typical” (fulfilling OT types like manna) yet real, demanding reverent handling akin to gold. Orthodox theologians like John Meyendorff (Byzantine Theology, Fordham, 1979, pp. 202–205) see this as foundational for Eastern eucharistic realism, where presence is mystical, not mechanistically explained
Another patristic voice is St. John Chrysostom (ca. 347–407), in Homily 24 on 1 Corinthians (on 1 Cor 10:16–21): “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?.. Consider how he abhorrents them, how he burns against them. ‘Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils.’… What then? Do we not partake of the same? Yes, of the same. But he saith not this, but what? ‘The bread which we break,’ bringing in the mention of the breaking of bread, and omitting nothing to remind thee of the passion… For if it is a communion, and we communicate, not simply partake… we mingle into one body not only through the gift of charity, but also through that very one Body.” Chrysostom stresses koinonia as real participation in Christ’s sacrificed Body, contrasting it with demonic tables

What is the Problem with the symbolic view (I will give the sources as well):

  • Instituition Narratives and Paul:
    Symbolic interpretations claim “this is my body” is metaphorical like “I am the vine”. However, Orthodox exegesis (Nicholas Cabasilas, A commentary on the Divine Liturgy, SVS press, 1960, pp 84-90) notes the imperative “do this” (poieite) implies a performative act, effecting presence not just recall. In 1 Cor 11:27-30, unworthy partake brings judgement and death, which symbolic views reduce to psychological guilt, yet Paul links it to “not discerning the body”, implying a failure to not recognize the objective presence. The Catholic Teaching in CCC sees this as evidence for substantial reality…
  • John 6:51-58
    Symbolic readings allergorize “eating flesh” as faith alone, but the crowd’s scandal and depature suggests literal offense. Orthodox Father Theodore Sylianopoulos (The New Testament: An Orthodox Perspective, Holy Cross Press, 1997 pp 156-160 noted) argues trōgein as deamnds somatic ingestion for eternal life, paralleling manna as true sustenance.
  • 1 Cor 10:16–21 and Typology (Exod 12, 16; Lev 7:15; Mal 1:11)
    Paul calls the Eucharist koinonia in Christ’s Blood and Body, equating it to altar sacrifices, real, not symbolic. Symbolic interpretations spritualize this as fellowship but Orthodox Liturgy eg. St. Basil’s Anaphora sees it fulfilling Malachi’s “pure offering” a global sacrifice implying perpetual presence. In Cahtolic terms (CCC 1363-1367), it perpetuates calvary’s sacrifice, contra symbolic mememorialism, which denies re-presentations. The OT types like the Passover Lamb (eaten literally in Exod 12) and Uzzah’s death for touching the ark (2 Sam 6:6-7) prefigures eucharistic reverence, underscoring danger in mishandling holy realities, evidence than symbolic views overlook, as symbols pose no such peril.
    For further reading: The Eucharist in the New Testament and the Early Church by Eugene LaVerdiere (Liturgical Press, 1996); Eucharist and Church Fellowship in the First Four Centuries by Werner Elert (Concordia, 1966, pp. 45–67). Peace in Christ.

Brother @Samuel_23 :face_holding_back_tears: , thank you for the time and depth you put into this response. I read through every section carefully, and I must say, your appeal to both the Greek grammar (estin, trōgein) and the patristic witnesses (especially St. Cyril and Chrysostom) has given me a lot to think about. I always leaned toward the symbolic view, but I see now that Scripture itself — 1 Corinthians 10–11, John 6, and the institution narratives — carries far more weight in favor of a Real Presence than I had realized.

Still, I want to be fair to the truth and not just persuaded by one strong presentation. I will check the primary sources you cited, especially the patristic context and the lexical points in LSJ, and I’d like to follow up with links and books to confirm each claim. If what you say holds up under scrutiny, then I must admit my former symbolic-only understanding was incomplete.

Thank you again for your patience and brotherly tone. I’ll continue to follow your posts word by word and weigh them carefully. Peace in Christ.

Ok brother, I’ll put the sources (took me a day to put it together):
Greek Linguistic and Literary Sources

Dionysius Thrax, Technē Grammatikē (ca. 100 BC). Defines eimi as a substantive verb denoting identity or essence, supporting literal interpretation of “this is my body”
Plato Republic, trans. G.M.A. Grube, rev. C.D.C. Reeve (Hackett, 1992), pp. 186–190.
Aristotle, Categories (1a–2b). Discusses eimi linking substance (ousia) to predicates, supporting eucharistic identity
Liddell-Scott-Jones, Greek-English Lexicon (9th ed., Oxford, 1940), p. 1830. Defines trōgein as “gnaw, nibble, munch,” for literal eating, supporting John 6:54–58.
Homer, Iliad (24.642). Uses trōgein for animals gnawing bones, emphasizing physicality.
Aristophanes, Frogs (962). Employs trōgein for crunching food, underscoring corporeality.

Patristic Sources
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 23 (Mystagogical Catechesis 5) (ca. 350). Affirms Eucharist as Christ’s Body and Blood post-consecration via Holy Spirit, rejecting mere bread and wine. See: The Works of Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, vol. 2, trans. Leo P. McCauley and Anthony A. Stephenson (Catholic University of America Press, 1970), pp. 186–192; Greek text in Patrologia Graeca 33:1097–1112.
St. John Chrysostom, Homily 24 on 1 Corinthians (on 1 Cor 10:16–21). Describes Eucharist as real participation (koinonia) in Christ’s Body and Blood. See: Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 12, ed. Philip Schaff (Hendrickson, 1994), pp. 138–142.

Scriptural Commentaries and Theological Works
Jeremias, Joachim. The Eucharistic Words of Jesus (SCM Press, 1966)
Brown, Raymond E. The Gospel According to John (I–XII) (Anchor Bible, Yale, 1966)
Schmemann, Alexander. The Eucharist: Sacrament of the Kingdom (SVS Press, 1988)
Meyendorff, John. Byzantine Theology (Fordham, 1979)
Cabasilas, Nicholas. A Commentary on the Divine Liturgy (SVS Press, 1960)
Stylianopoulos, Theodore. The New Testament: An Orthodox Perspective (Holy Cross Press, 1997)
Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 1374–1376, 1362–1367)
LaVerdiere, Eugene. The Eucharist in the New Testament and the Early Church (Liturgical Press, 1996)
Elert, Werner. Eucharist and Church Fellowship in the First Four Centuries (Concordia, 1966)

Biblical References
Institution Narratives: Matthew 26:26–28; Mark 14:22–24; Luke 22:19–20; 1 Corinthians 11:23–29.
Bread of Life Discourse: John 6:30–71, esp. vv. 51–58 (trōgein).
Paul’s Theology: 1 Corinthians 10:16–21 (koinonia); 1 Corinthians 11:27–30 (judgment).
Old Testament Typology: Exodus 12 (Passover); Exodus 16 (manna); Leviticus 7:15; 22:9; 2 Samuel 6:6–7; Malachi 1:11.
Other Passages: Luke 24:30–31 (Emmaus); Acts 2:42 (breaking bread); Hebrews 9–10.

Now @ILOVECHRIST, its not possible to read such books in a short span of time, so what I would suggest is to open these books and just read the part concerning this topic, but the problem is that the pages vary.
For instance, take Cabasilas, Nicholas, A Commentary on the Divine Liturgy SVS Press, 1960, then go to pages 84-90, somewhere there you can find the answer you are looking for…
So check those pages only because depending on print it varies
Take Care Brother
And I’m happy to read your perspective…
Peace
Sam

Now @ILOVECHRIST brother, you might have read this post…
1.The Term Anamnesis and Its Sacrificial Connotation
The claim that anamnesis (eis tēn anamnēsin mou, “in remembrance of me.”) denotes only a mental recollection oversimplifies the semantic range. @ILOVECHRIST brother, see, in Hellenistic Greek and the LXX, anamnesis often caries a cultic, sacrificial sense, not merely a cognitive recall. A strong evidence is:
Leviticus 24:7 (LXX)
Anamnesis describes the memorial offering of frankincense on the bread of the Presence, which is a ritual act making God’s covenantal action present, not just remembered. Similarly, in Numbers 10:10, anamnesis refers to trumpet blasts, as a “remembrance before your God” effecting divine favour.
Joachim Jeremias, in The Eucharistic Words of Jesus (SCM press, 1966, ig pages 237-255) argues than anamnesis in the institution narratives parallels Passover’s ritual re-presentation, where participants enter the salvific event. Orthodox theology, as articulated by Alexander Schmemann (The Eucharist: Sacrament of the Kingdom, SVS Press, 1988) sees anamnesis as a liturgical act that actualizes Christ’s presence, not a mere mnemonic device.
Reducing anamnesis to mental recollection ignores its dynamic, performative role in Jewish and Christian liturgy, where words effect reality.

2.Sōma and Haima as Ontological Realities
The assertion that sōma(body) and haima(blood) are purely symbolic referent to Christ’s crucifixion overlooks their concrete usage in Paul. In 1 Cor 10:16, Paul calls the Eucharist “koinonia of the Blood of Christ” and “koinonia of the Body of Christ” using koinonia to denote real participation, not mere fellowship.
In Greek literature, koinonia implies sharing in a tangible reality:
Plato, Gorgias 507e, where it denotes partnership in action
St. John Chrysostom, in Homily 24 on 1 Cor (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. 12, ed. Philip Schaff, Hendrickson, 1994) interprets this as participation in Christ’s acutal Body, paralleling altar sacrifices (1 Cor 10:18). The memorialist view’s claim that sōma refers only to the “ekklēsia” (church) or Christ’s cross is strained, as Paul’s syntax in 1 Cor 11:24 (“this is my body”) and 11:29 (“not discerning the body”) lacks qualifiers limiting sōma to metaphor. The absence of particles like hōs (“as”) common in symbolic langauage as in John 10:9, and the parallel with touto estin in Gen 31:26 (LXX, where “are” denotes identity) suggest ontological presence.
For more info go to Raymond Brown (The Gospel According to John (I–XII), Yale, 1966) in which we can note that Paul’s language mirrors John 6’s realism, where sōma and haima are inseparable from Christ’s incarnate reality.
3. Judgment and Diakrinō to Sōma
What the memorialist argument does is to tie the judgement in 1 Cor 11:27-30 to ethical failures but this ignores Paul’s explicit link to “not discerning the body” (mē diakrinōn to sōma, v. 29). Diakrinō means to distinguish or judge correctly and here it implies recognizing the Eucharist as Christ’s Body, not merely Church Community.
See the severe consequeunce…tell me what does it parallel to…?
Sickness, death etc arent these judgements for mishandling holy things like Uzzah’s death in 2 Sam 6:6-7 and priests’ accountability in Leviticus 22:9. Nicholas Cabasilas (A Commentary on the Divine Liturgy, SVS Press, 1960) argues that such gravity presupposes a sacred reality, not a symbol. The ethical violations exacebrate the sin by profaning the holy, but the root issues is irrevenrence toward Christ’s presence. A symbolic meal lacks the causal power to incur divine judgment, as mere ethical lapses would not warrant physical death without a desecrated sacred object.

4.John 6 and Trōgein
The memorialist view sidesteps John 6:51-58, where Jesus escalates from pagein (eat, general) to trōgein (gnaw or chew), discussed in prev posts @ILOVECHRIST brother, that this term has visceral, literal connotations in Greek Literature like Homer, IIiad 24.642, Aristophanes . Frogs 962, LSJ Greek-Eng lexicon 9th ed etc. The disciples’ scandal and departure indicate a literal demand, not a metaphorical faith. Theodore Stylianopoulos (The New Testament: An Orthodox Perspective, Holy Cross Press, 1997) notes that trōgein aligns with Eucharistic ingestion, fulfilling manna as true sustenance. The memorialist reduction of “eating” to spiritual assent fragments John’s discourse, which ties eternal life to somatic participation.

I would like to end with the typological and Scriptural coherence problem.
The memorialist reading neglects the OT types that represent a real presence. The Passover Lamb is eaten literally, not symbolically, to participate in salvation. Manna is God’s tangible provision, fulfilled in John 6’s “true bread”. Malachi 1:11 “pure offering” is interpreted by both traditions as Eucharist.

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Hey @Samuel_23, I’ve spent quite some time going through your posts on the Real Presence vs. Memorialist debate. I must admit, your arguments—especially the Greek linguistic analysis, patristic citations, and typological references—are surprisingly compelling and detailed. I can see why many Orthodox and Catholic scholars find this line of reasoning convincing.

That said, I still have some significant questions I hope you can clarify:

  1. Trōgein in John 6 – You argue that the term implies literal, somatic ingestion. But in Koine Greek, verbs can carry multiple layers of meaning. How do we rule out a metaphorical or mystical interpretation without overstating the semantic range? Could John’s audience have understood a spiritually real, yet non-physical, “eating” of Christ?

  2. Anamnesis in the Institution Narrative – While Leviticus 24:7 and Numbers 10:10 show ritual remembrance making events present, how can we be certain that Paul’s use of anamnesis in 1 Cor 11:24–25 necessarily effects ontological presence rather than liturgical memorial? Does Jewish typology automatically equate to literal transformation in Christian practice?

  3. 1 Corinthians 11:27–30 – You link the severe judgment for “not discerning the body” to mishandling a physically real presence. Couldn’t Paul’s warning also address ethical irreverence, communal disunity, or a failure to respect the symbolic depth of the Eucharist? How do we disentangle sacramental realism from moral/communal dimensions?

  4. Patristic Evidence – The citations from Cyril and Chrysostom are persuasive for Eastern liturgical realism. But to what extent can we generalize these perspectives to all early Christians, including those in the Western church? Are there any counter-patristic voices that might favor a symbolic or spiritualist reading?

  5. Typology and OT Models – You highlight Passover lambs, manna, and Malachi 1:11. But typology often functions analogically. How do we demonstrate that literal fulfillment is required, and that the Eucharist cannot be understood as a spiritually real, yet non-physical participation?

I genuinely want to understand the Real Presence more rigorously, and your posts are a rich resource. I’d appreciate a detailed reply addressing these questions so I can see how Orthodox and Catholic frameworks handle these nuanced challenges.

Good questions @ILOVECHRIST, even @Johann asked similar questions, but im pleased to see you taking the arguments seriously, cross-referencing it by yourself, and learning from it…amazing…
1.Trōgein in John 6, Ruling Out Pure Metaphor
The verb trōgein (to gnaw, chew, munch) in John 6:54. 56-58 indeed carries a multifaceted semantic range in Koine Greek, but its deployment here resists a purely metaphorical or non-physical interpretation without overstating its literal force. To contextualise: John’s shift from phagein (general, “to eat” in vv 49-53) to Trōgein escalates the discourse’s intensity, evoking visceral physicality. The LSJ Greek-English Lexicon (9th ed Oxford 1940) defines trōgein primarily as literal mastication, especially of raw of fibrous substances, with rare metaphorical extensions in Hellenistic texts (eg gnawing on idea in Philo, Quod Deterius Potiori Insidiari Soleat 48, but even there tied to consumption). In classical sources like Homer’s Iliad (24.642), it describes animals crunching bones, underscoring a somatic realism; Aristophanes’ Frogs (962) uses it for audible munching, emphasizing sensory engagement.
John audience, steeped in Jewish-Hellenistic culture, would recognize this as scandalous literalism, not mere symbolism. The pericope’s structure mirrors Capernaum’s synagogue debate where murmurs and departures is similar to Exodus 16’s grumblings over manna, implying a tangible provision. Scholarly consensus, even Protestant exegetes like Joachim Jeremias (The Eucharistic Words of Jesus, SCM Press, 1966) views trōgein as eucharistic foreshadowing, liking to institution narratives. Catholic scholar Raymond Brown in The Gospel According to John (I-XII), Yale, 1966, argues the verb’s graphic nature precludes metaphor, as John’s incarnational theology (“the Word became flesh”) demands somatic reality for eternal life. Theodore Stylianopoulos (The New Testament: An Orthodox Perspective, Holy Cross Press, 1997) adds that trōgein facilitates theosis (deification), a mystical yet physical union, not abstract faith.
To rule out pure metahpor, John’s lack of allegorical qualifiers (like no hōs or eikōn, unlike parables) and the crowd’s literal offense (sarxophagy implied) demand realism. A spiritually real, but non-physical “eating” (like Zwinglian) dilutes this, as trōgein’s etymology (from trōgō, to bite) in papyri like P.Oxy. 1088 (2nd AD) denotes empirical acts. Mystically, Orthodox (eg. St. John Damascene, Exact Exposition 4.13) and Catholic (Aquinas, Summa Theologiae III, q.75, a.1) frameworks integrate this as trans-elemental: spiritual efficacy through physical means, fulfilling Isa 55:1-2’s invitation to “eat what is good.”
2. Anamnesis in 1 Cor 11: Ontological Presence via Jewish Typology

An amazing question that you have raised :saluting_face:
Paul’s anamnesis (“remembrance,” 1 Cor 11:24-25) does not merely recall but actualises Christ’s sacrifice, effecting ontological presence rooted in Jewish cultic typology. In LXX usage, anamnesis is performative:
Leviticus 24:7’s memorial frankincense ascends to God, invoking covenantal response; Numbers 10:10’s trumpets “remind” God, eliciting favor. This is no passive memory but a ritual re-presentation, as in Sirach 50:16 (LXX), where high priestly acts make atonement present.
Paul, a Pharisee, adapts this: The Eucharist proclaims Christ’s death “until He comes”, bridging past, present and eschaton. Jeremias traces anamnesis to the Passover haggadah, where participants enter Exodus events ontologically. Orthodox exegesis (Alexander Schmemann, The Eucharist, SVS Press, 1988) views it as epiclesis-driven metabole making Christ present without re-crucifixion. Catholic theology sees it as an anamnetic sacrifice, fulfilling Malachi 1:11’s “pure offering”.
Jewish typology does not “automatically” equate to transformation but logically infers it: Passover’s literal lamb-eating (Exod 12:8) typifies Christ’s somatic gift (1 Cor 5:7). Non-ontological views reduce anamnesis to mnemonic, ignoring its covenantal dynamism (e.g., berith in LXX as binding presence). Evidence: Paul’s sequence—thanksgiving (eucharistēsas), breaking, declaration—mirrors Mishnaic rituals (Pesahim 10), effecting presence.

3.1 Cor 11:27-30: Judgement as Evidence of Real Presence Amid Ethical Dimensions
Paul’s judgment for “not discerning the body” (mē diakrinōn to sōma, v. 29) integrates sacramental realism with ethics, but the former grounds the latter. Diakrinō implies ontological distinction not mere respect. Unworthy partaking incurs guilt against Christ’s Body and Blood, paralleling Leviticus 22:9’s priestly sanctions for profaning holy things.
Ethical irrelevance and communal disunity exacerbate this, but judgment’s physicality ,like weakness, sickness, and death, presupposes a desecrated sacred object, not symbolism. Protestant scholar Gordon Fee (The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Eerdmans, 1987) notes sōma refers dually to Christ’s Eucharistic Body and the Church, but the former enables the latter’s unity.
Orthodox (Cabasilas, Commentary) and CCC 1393 ciews entwine:
profaning the real presence wounds exxlesial koinonia.
Disentangling:
ethics flow from realism a symbolic meal warrants no divine judgement beyond conscience (refer to Uzzah, 2 Sam 6:7)
4.Patristic Evidence: Consensus on Realism with Complementary Symbolism
St. Cyril and St. John Chrysostom represent a broad patristic consensus, generalizable to East and West, as early witnesses affirm realism without philosophical speculation. St. Ignatius of Antioch (Eph 20.2) calls the Eucharist as “the flesh of our Saviour” demanding unity; Justin Martyr (First Apology 66) describes it as “not common bread” but Christ’s Body via prayer.

Counter-voices?
Minority symbolic emphases exist but integrate with realism. Origen (Contra Celsum 8.33, ca. 248) uses “symbol” (symbolon) but means typological sign effecting reality (cf. his homilies on Leviticus). Tertullian (Adversus Marcionem 4.40, ca. 207) calls elements “figures” yet affirms consumption of Christ’s Body. Eusebius (Demonstratio Evangelica 8.1, ca. 320) symbolises but in the context of anti-idolatry polemic. Protestant historians like Philip Schaff (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, Hendrickson, 1996) and J.N.D. Kelly (Early Christian Doctrines, HarperOne, 1978) confirms overwhelming realism by the 2nd century, with symbolism as pedagogical, not alternative. Western Fathers like Ambrose (De Mysteriis 9.50–58) similar to Eastern realism, prefigured transubstantiation.
5. Typology and OT Models: Literal Fulfillment in Somatic Participation
Typology is analogical yet demands superior fulfillment (Heb 8:5), where OT shadows yield NT realities. Passover’s literal lamb-consumption (Exod 12:46) fulfills in Christ’s unbroken bones (John 19:36) and eucharistic eating (1 Cor 5:7–8). Manna (Exod 16) as “bread from heaven” typifies John’s “true bread” (6:32), somatic for sustenance.
Malachi 1:11’s “pure offering” (minchah tahorah)—incense and sacrifice globally—fulfills in the Eucharist’s unbloody re-presentation, as Irenaeus (Adversus Haereses 4.17.5) and Didache (14.1–3) attest.
Literal fulfillment is required because types prefigure antitypes ontologically (Col 2:17): non-physical participation reduces to gnostic spiritualism, contra incarnation. Orthodox (Schmemann) and Catholic (CCC 1374) see somatic realism enabling spiritual union.